AnimeSuki Forums

NoemiChan · 2013-01-25, 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kudryavka

Aw but I heard hes not actually a tranvestite, he just gets forced into girls clothes.

But we love her! uhmm.. him....

*forget it...

Oh, going nack.. how about checking the Saimoe League and see the nominees.... the hints are there...

erneiz_hyde · 2013-01-25, 19:51

Do you guys remember how Daru from steins;gate refer to THIS as moe?

Tempester · 2013-01-25, 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyuu

What is NOT moe?

1) Male characters

I think Sky High from Tiger & Bunny is pretty damn moe.

Images

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hyl · 2013-01-25, 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kudryavka

Aw but I heard hes not actually a tranvestite, he just gets forced into girls clothes.

You really don't know what people use the word "trap" for, do you?

As for traps, i hate to say it that some traps are better looking than any of the main heroines in their respective anime/manga/VN, but let's not thread into that dangerous territory.

Kudryavka · 2013-01-25, 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyl

You really don't know what people use the word "trap" for, do you?

Man i will just leave this...

NoemiChan · 2013-01-25, 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kudryavka

And what was your point in saying that?

Spoiler for A bit out of topic:

Kudryavka · 2013-01-25, 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Spoiler for A bit out of topic:

Thank you for that, Genji. I hope thats what he means, but I dont know why he acted like that.

I had always thought that transvestite is a person who really wants to be the other gender, and "trap" was a slur against people like that. I didnt know it was a good word here.

hyl · 2013-01-25, 20:38

As Genji-chan explained, i am not using male characters who simply dress up as females like Amane from Blazblue as a trap

But rather characters like Chihaya from Otoboku 2

or Remon from Pure Girl as a trap

There is a difference and that is the subject of this topic: the "moe" factor

Eisdrache · 2013-01-25, 20:44

Both of them qualify as trap, this is a fact and there is no arguing that.

As if a trap has to be moe to be a trap.

Also traps are bad, shoo shoo.

hyl · 2013-01-25, 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

Both of them qualify as trap, this is a fact and there is no arguing that.

As if a trap has to be moe to be a trap.

Depends ,you can't call it a "trap" if you are not "falling" for it.

The words in the quotation marks are intentionally used for their double meaning in this post

Eisdrache · 2013-01-25, 20:46

Without prior knowledge I assumed that Amane was a girl so yes I fell for it. That still doesn't mean that traps have to be moe.

Ithekro · 2013-01-25, 20:48

Traps pretty much by definition look like a female most of the time without any real flags that it could be male in the slightest.

They are usually in two versions: Cute or sexy.

Both can be disturbing if one is not careful.

Generally to the point were either they or someone else can say "But its a guy" and you, that audiance observer would say "bullshit".

hyl · 2013-01-25, 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

Without prior knowledge I assumed that Amane was a girl so yes I fell for it. That still doesn't mean that traps have to be moe.

Depends on your own ability to distinguish if a character is male of female then (edit: it does not help that much that Amane is voiced by Akira Ishida, but i am not sure if you have heard his voice in the first place)

Let's make it more extreme than Amane.

This is IMO definitely not a trap, but a crossdresser or whatever you may call him

edit: it seems that i am ignoring my own previous post/warning ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyl

but let's not thread into that dangerous territory.

erneiz_hyde · 2013-01-25, 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyl

As for traps, i hate to say it that some traps are better looking than any of the main heroines in their respective anime/manga/VN, but let's not thread into that dangerous territory.

This. So much. Though, I VERY welcome this.

The trap is always the best "girl".

NoemiChan · 2013-01-25, 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyl

This is an insult to the third sex...

Quote:

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

This. So much. Though, I VERY welcome this.

The trap is always the best "girl".

Funny, he drawing where Chihaya has boobs is very misleading....

0utf0xZer0 · 2013-01-26, 04:57

Nobody has raised Renji from EF or Haruka from Yosuga no Sora as examples of moe male characters yet? Come on people, a boy doesn't need to be a trap to be moe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Kotoura, in contrast, is drawn in the cute style with a wide face much like Hiro in Hidamari Sketch or Madoka in Madoka Magica. For reasons the story makes clear from the outset, she has been an outcast for much of her life. Those experiences helped her develop a strong personality, but she also elicits strong feelings of protectiveness in both the other characters and in the audience as well. This show is derived from a 4-koma comic strip that looks to be part of a shounen manga and thus intended for a male audience.

Much as I myself proclam Kotoura this season's most moe character, and much as I agree that the art style and intense injustices visited upon her are the reason she's so damn moe... I have to object to boiling moe down to a feeling of protectiveness. The intense feelings I get towards certain characters like Kotoura that I'd describe as moe aren't primarily protective in nature, and I'd be kind of surprised if I was alone in this. Nor do I want to shower her with my love or anything like that (as I do for a few shy characters like Kotomi from Clannad. Yes, I'm a hopeless romantic nerd, so be it.). Rather, what I feel towards Kotoura is an intense adoration - kind of like a sudden warmth hits and my brain shuts down a little from giddiness - and desire to root for her as an underdog character.

Then there's characters like OreImo's Kuroneko, Otome Youkai Zakuro's Zakuro, and Sola's Matsuri where their sad experiences play little part in why I love the characters so much. I call them moe because their cuteness and charms bewitch me such that I feel compelled to worship them as goddesses with puppy eyed adoration. Again, it's a feeling of warmth and like I'm too giddy to think quite as well as usual. That, to me, is the feeling of moe.

(So, an intense adoration manifest in a feeling of warmth and slight giddiness? Works for me, and I think it's probably what my girlfriend feels too based on how she acts when she takes a "moe hit". I'm guessing this definition won't satisfy some, though.)

SeijiSensei · 2013-01-26, 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Much as I myself proclam Kotoura this season's most moe character, and much as I agree that the art style and intense injustices visited upon her are the reason she's so damn moe... I have to object to boiling moe down to a feeling of protectiveness.

I wasn't saying moe is only that. I was contrasting Kotoura with Chihaya who does not elicit those feelings at all and whose character model is more classically beautiful than cute. Even if Chihaya had the same character model as Kotoura, her personality would militate against her being considered moe. On the other hand, putting Kotoura's personality into Chihaya's body would, I think, undermine any moe-ness that Kotoura's character might otherwise elicit.

Even characteristics like height matter, I think. Most female characters that I would classify as moe tend to be on the short side, like Hidamari's Hiro. When put alongside a tallish male companion, it adds an imouto-like aspect to their relationship that often plays out in ways that I would consider demeaning to the girl, like the pats on the head we often see in scenes like those. It makes the girl seem more like a puppy than an equal to the male. The sexism inherent in such portrayals is hard to miss.

0utf0xZer0 · 2013-01-26, 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I wasn't saying moe is only that. I was contrasting Kotoura with Chihaya who does not elicit those feelings at all and whose character model is more classically beautiful than cute. Even if Chihaya had the same character model as Kotoura, her personality would militate against her being considered moe. On the other hand, putting Kotoura's personality into Chihaya's body would, I think, undermine any moe-ness that Kotoura's character might otherwise elicit.

Ah. Well, I don’t disagree with the general thrust of the comparison. Experiences tells me I’d probably dispute some of the nuances but I’m not familiar enough with Chihayafuru to do so. That said, this is a “what is moe” thread and I want to make sure that a good range of viewpoints get aired – and I’ve seen moe get boiled down to the “protective feeling” doctrine a few too many times for my liking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Even characteristics like height matter, I think. Most female characters that I would classify as moe tend to be on the short side, like Hidamari's Hiro. When put alongside a tallish male companion, it adds an imouto-like aspect to their relationship that often plays out in ways that I would consider demeaning to the girl, like the pats on the head we often see in scenes like those. It makes the girl seem more like a puppy than an equal to the male. The sexism inherent in such portrayals is hard to miss.

I wouldn’t make much of a pat on the head without other information to contextualize it. I have a short girlfriend and pet her on the head sometimes, either to tease or because the cuteness compels me (yes, the two reasons people tend to do it in anime…). I don’t think it means I treat her as inferior.

I'm getting the impression we also see these couples differently in general, I actually had to think about what you meant by "imouto-like aspect" for quite a while to see it and I'm still not sure I got it right. Or maybe we're not even thinking of the same couples.

Nico87 · 2013-01-26, 16:44

Well, according to the Senran Kagura (3DS game) creator, Mortal Kombat is moe. In other words, no real definition.

Kudryavka · 2013-01-26, 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nico87

Well, according to the Senran Kagura (3DS game) creator, Mortal Kombat is moe. In other words, no real definition.

Yes, that was my goal all along. To see what everyone else thinks is moe. Despite what some of you say, there is no such thing as a bottom line reaction to moe. We dont all react the same way.

2013-01-25, 19:51	Link #62
erneiz_hyde 18782+18782=37564 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: InterWebs	Do you guys remember how Daru from steins;gate refer to THIS as moe? __________________

2013-01-25, 20:48	Link #72
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Traps pretty much by definition look like a female most of the time without any real flags that it could be male in the slightest. They are usually in two versions: Cute or sexy. Both can be disturbing if one is not careful. Generally to the point were either they or someone else can say "But its a guy" and you, that audiance observer would say "bullshit". __________________

2013-01-25, 20:38	Link #68
hyl reading #hikaributts Join Date: Feb 2009	As Genji-chan explained, i am not using male characters who simply dress up as females like Amane from Blazblue as a trap But rather characters like Chihaya from Otoboku 2 or Remon from Pure Girl as a trap There is a difference and that is the subject of this topic: the "moe" factor

2013-01-25, 20:44	Link #69
Eisdrache Part-time misanthrope Join Date: Mar 2007	Both of them qualify as trap, this is a fact and there is no arguing that. As if a trap has to be moe to be a trap. Also traps are bad, shoo shoo.

2013-01-25, 20:46	Link #71
Eisdrache Part-time misanthrope Join Date: Mar 2007	Without prior knowledge I assumed that Amane was a girl so yes I fell for it. That still doesn't mean that traps have to be moe.

2013-01-26, 16:44	Link #79
Nico87 Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Norway	Well, according to the Senran Kagura (3DS game) creator, Mortal Kombat is moe. In other words, no real definition.