Aquarion EVOL - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by C.A.

Well trainwrecks are supposed to look and sound so good to so many people yet contain such terrible plots that people are completely disgusted.

Dragonaut had designs that people liked, had some good potential, great seiyuu cast, a bunch of reasons that attracted people to watch it. The same goes for EVOL, they even went as much as having an hour special for the first two episodes to get people to watch it.

But it all turned out to be quite rubbish.

I never watched Dragonaut. Was it that bad?

[Faerie]

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I'd definitely say EVOL is one of the worst shows of it's genre I've seen, rivalled only by Gundam Age. It's been a year of trainwrecks... and I'm very reluctant to call a show that.

As some had said, without Zessica, it might not have been as obvious how contrived and painful the AmataxMikonoxKagura romance is- although people would've still noticed it's shallowness, maybe they wouldn't have been as disgusted. I can't even remember the last time a main pairing provoked disgust unintentionally. Good old Kawamori definitely messed up this one....
It's such a shame I wanted to love this show so much.

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I'd definitely say EVOL is one of the worst shows of it's genre I've seen, rivalled only by Gundam Age. It's been a year of trainwrecks... and I'm very reluctant to call a show that.

As some had said, without Zessica, it might not have been as obvious how contrived and painful the AmataxMikonoxKagura romance is- although people would've still noticed it's shallowness, maybe they wouldn't have been as disgusted. I can't even remember the last time a main pairing provoked disgust unintentionally. Good old Kawamori definitely messed up this one....
It's such a shame I wanted to love this show so much.

It is really disappointing. As I said before I like Zessica but she makes the AmataxMikonoxKagura romance look weak.

I wanted to like this one too. At least it wasn't as bad as Gundam Seed Destiny.

[C.A.]

Dragonaut was horrible, it carries the title of the greatest trainwreck ever. There is nothing much I can say about its plot because there was barely any.

Characters suddenly change without gradual development, bad things happen for no reason at all when there is clearly some other solution, and if they finally have a solution its always love triumphs all.

Now that I think about it, both of these anime are suffering from bad writing in similar but different ways. They are both trying to create drama, but Dragonaut had truly bad writers, and in EVOL's case, has writers who deliberately made it bad.

EVOL is definitely at the very bottom for the mecha/romance genre.

[Faerie]

Originally Posted by KleenexGhost

It is really disappointing. As I said before I like Zessica but she makes the AmataxMikonoxKagura romance look weak.

I wanted to like this one too. At least it wasn't as bad as Gundam Seed Destiny.

Even GSD might be easier to swallow than this one :/
I almost feel like Kawamori wanted to try out having the weaker side (the Minmays, Rankas and Maos of this world) of a triangle succeed. But he failed terribly at it, because Mikono has turned into a horrible character and so has Amata. Both are unlikeable, and their romance looks cheap and forced. Meanwhile, Kagura and Zessica, who deserve to win and have the sympathy of the audience, get screwed. It's just awfully executed. I don't get what he was thinking...

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

Even GSD might be easier to swallow than this one :/
I almost feel like Kawamori wanted to try out having the weaker side (the Minmays, Rankas and Maos of this world) of a triangle succeed. But he failed terribly at it, because Mikono has turned into a horrible character and so has Amata. Both are unlikeable, and their romance looks cheap and forced. Meanwhile, Kagura and Zessica, who deserve to win and have the sympathy of the audience, get screwed. It's just awfully executed. I don't get what he was thinking...

True. You can't have your main couple be unlikable.

Originally Posted by C.A.

Dragonaut was horrible, it carries the title of the greatest trainwreck ever. There is nothing much I can say about its plot because there was barely any.

Characters suddenly change without gradual development, bad things happen for no reason at all when there is clearly some other solution, and if they finally have a solution its always love triumphs all.

Now that I think about it, both of these anime are suffering from bad writing in similar but different ways. They are both trying to create drama, but Dragonaut had truly bad writers, and in EVOL's case, has writers who deliberately made it bad.

EVOL is definitely at the very bottom for the mecha/romance genre.

Dragonaut sounds a lot like Guilty Crown.

[Triple_R]

I don't think that having Zessica in the anime was a mistake, but having her fall in love with Amata probably was.

Imagine if Zessica felt pity for the shy and low self-esteem Mikono, and flirted with Amata to try to prod Mikono into following her heart. The "Flying Boner" joke would have been maintained in the early going, but it would instead be about Zessica trying to prompt Mikono into taking action.

I think what would have worked best is if, in addition to this, Zessica had later became close friends with Mikono, and in turn have her occasionally play cheerleader/matchmaker for the Amata/Mikono romance. Basically, make her be to Mikono what Andy was to Amata in the early going. Here is where Zessica being strong where Mikono is weak could have actually worked beautifully in giving Zessica a good, important role to play (with superb execution, Zessica and Mikono could have even been somewhat similar to Rider and Waver over in Fate/Zero).

As another poster had said, Shrade's dead body could have worked decently well as Mykage's tool to take control of an Aquarion. Even the timing is just about perfect - Shrade dies not long before Mykage seizes control of Zessica's body.


Even if the writing staff just didn't want to leave Zessica without a romantic interest in anybody, they could have simply made her half of a secondary romance somewhere down the line, a la Jin/Yunoha and Andy/MIX.

While the love quadrangle made things a little bit extra interesting in the first half or so of the show, its overall impact on the show just isn't worth it, imo. OTOH, with Zessica now being my favorite protagonist in this show, I'm not keen on her being removed from the show entirely (I fear that this show would have felt too straightforward and/or shallow to me without Zessica there). I think that Zessica's role could have been redefined in a way that would keep her appealing (maybe even more appealing than what she already is, particularly to some viewers who tired of her romance-driven angst) without upsetting Amata X Mikono.

Zessica as the plucky action-girl who is loyal to/supportive of her friends, who in lieu of no guy interesting her is eager to play matchmaker for Mikono and be Mikono's "bro", could have been a really nice overall role for her.

[hyl]

Originally Posted by C.A.

Well trainwrecks are supposed to look and sound so good to so many people yet contain such terrible plots that people are completely disgusted.

Dragonaut had designs that people liked, had some good potential, great seiyuu cast, a bunch of reasons that attracted people to watch it. The same goes for EVOL, they even went as much as having an hour special for the first two episodes to get people to watch it.

But it all turned out to be quite rubbish.

Well guilty crown was the same for me though. Great cast (evol has some seiyuus from guilty crown), visuals , music but the plot (especially at the end) ruined it for me.

As for Evol it hasn't ended yet , so i will refrain commenting if it's a trainwreck after the final episode has aired

[KleenexGhost]

Triple_R I feel the same way about Zessica. But with the way they used her in the series they should have handled her differently. Like the discussion we had the other day she makes Mikono's flaws stand out and acts in many as a foil to Mikono. She could have been used differently like you said and been the Andy to Mikono's Amata. She could still flirt with Amata from time to time but nothing serious.

She's my favorite out of the main characters, second only to Mykage, but she also makes the main romantic pairing look weak.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by KleenexGhost

Triple_R I feel the same way about Zessica. But with the way they used her in the series they should have handled her differently. Like the discussion we had the other day she makes Mikono's flaws stand out and acts in many as a foil to Mikono. She could have been used differently like you said and been the Andy to Mikono's Amata. She could still flirt with Amata from time to time but nothing serious.

She's my favorite out of the main characters, second only to Mykage, but she also makes the main romantic pairing look weak.

Yeah, I agree with all of that.

I'm glad you liked my idea on how to end the show off. At least at a meta-level, I think an ending like that is the best-case scenario now.

But "what could have been" is a question that people are going to always ask about this show. It had plenty of good ingredients for a romance, but the way they put it together was truly a horrific mess.

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yeah, I agree with all of that.

I'm glad you liked my idea on how to end the show off. At least at a meta-level, I think an ending like that is the best-case scenario now.

But "what could have been" is a question that people are going to always ask about this show. It had plenty of good ingredients for a romance, but the way they put it together was truly a horrific mess.

But I just can't stop watching. lol

[mayumi]

I am not a fan of Zessica being Mikono's cheer leader in anyway. Mikono would'nt even shake hands with her. It pissed me off. Zessica should have gotten her own love story like andy-mix, yunoha-jin, cayenne-shrade etc. I will bet if her romance problem with a new guy or operator guy were to drag out till the end like andy-mix did, those blue ray disks would sell like hot cakes. She just has so much love to give. It should be given to a guy who deserves it.

They totally wasted Zessica's potential by making her pine for Amata especially since it looks like fate which they try to convince us as love now, is something she will lose against. Unless they pull a last minute move to fix amata-mikono relationship by claiming Zessica only fell in love with amata cause she is silvia's dark half or she is sirius etc

[Faerie]

I think I have concluded that Apollonius needs to show up, bring flowers, chocolate and massage oil with a huge apology and a promise to make the last 24000 years up to his one true love. He doesn't know what got into him or what he was thinking. Touma was right, Celiane is a harlot and she clearly wasn't all that, seeing how seems to think a dog will do just as well in his stead. The only one who truly loved him and whom he loved was and will always be Touma.
This leaves us with the only believable (unresolved) pairing that is left in this series while at the same time solving all problems so there will never be the need for another season of Aquarion.
Sazanka will also be happy.

Oh please let it be so.

[Korps!]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I'd definitely say EVOL is one of the worst shows of it's genre I've seen, rivalled only by Gundam Age. It's been a year of trainwrecks... and I'm very reluctant to call a show that.

As some had said, without Zessica, it might not have been as obvious how contrived and painful the AmataxMikonoxKagura romance is- although people would've still noticed it's shallowness, maybe they wouldn't have been as disgusted. I can't even remember the last time a main pairing provoked disgust unintentionally. Good old Kawamori definitely messed up this one....
It's such a shame I wanted to love this show so much.

I wouldn't say that Gundam AGE is as bad as EVOL (though if Asemu had as much SUPER PILOOOOOOOOOOOT than Amata's MIKONOSAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA[...]AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN that would be another story altogether) but it definitely tie for crappy unwanted romance.

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

Even GSD might be easier to swallow than this one :/
I almost feel like Kawamori wanted to try out having the weaker side (the Minmays, Rankas and Maos of this world) of a triangle succeed. But he failed terribly at it, because Mikono has turned into a horrible character and so has Amata. Both are unlikeable, and their romance looks cheap and forced. Meanwhile, Kagura and Zessica, who deserve to win and have the sympathy of the audience, get screwed. It's just awfully executed. I don't get what he was thinking...

He definitely tried to do something and as the whole thing reached trainwreck status long ago, I'm really kininari- *bitchslap* curious about him developping in details what was the message he tried to convey because at that moment I don't get it.

Amata and Mikono are well... to be soft, less likeable than the main villain who happens to be the new definition of troll, explain to me what you had in mind my dear Kawamori.

Originally Posted by mayumi

I am not a fan of Zessica being Mikono's cheer leader in anyway. Mikono would'nt even shake hands with her. It pissed me off.

Kawamori, explain to me why I should appreciate/like/enjoy/support Mikono. I'm too stupid, I didn't get your message.

Unless...

Lord Saka is the answer, everything should be read backward, EVOL to LOVE, gold to shit, shit to gold, all is one, one is all, clap your hands, you don't need transmutation circles when you have donuts. No, I don't get it.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by teelatsuki

Spoiler for some ranting about the characters:

Amata is a Lying hypocrite... If anyone denies this they weren't paying attention, I at this point find it extremely hard to point something good about him... and when I do there is something incredibly bad that ties perfectly to it (the most obvious being that he is devoted... which also means that he doesn't give a damn about anything else besides the thing he is devoted to, he is the same as a hardcore religious fanatic). He had a bad life but all that was his fault for being a pushover and is coming back to bite his ass even more, he can't grow a pair after all the things that have happened... and if he grows a pair you just have to mention Mikono to cut it clean.

His strugle is petty(as in he had the option of changing things for the better if he actually tried) if you compare it to Kagura's he went after their mother just to be brainwashed into not caring and not knowing ANYTHING and growed up shunned out by others (one of them being "his" father) and tortured by Mykage, the guy never got any simpathy from anywhere, he has every right to chase after a memory of a life when he was acepted and loved, this is also why he doen't want to think about how or who Mikono is now, because the Mikono of now might not be the person he wants, he probably know this and that is why he refuges himself in "Silvie", unlike Amata who sees what he wants Kagura refuses to see because he knows he may end up dissapointed. (I don't know if this is good or bad it's just how I perceive their characters) Worst of all he is the one getting the blame for Mykage's actions, he can't catch a breathe.

Mikono... I don't like what the writing staff has done to her... they do absolutely everything in their power to make sure she never gets to do anything usefull no matter how much she is willing to do it (this chapter being the obvious example as this time around she actually had means to stop Amagura's fight).

Mykage is great period.(I don't even hate him for what he has done to Zessica, probably because he is supossed to do these kind of things)

And finally I love Zessica and that's why I wish she never existed in this series, her existence is too pure and awesome for all the shit that has become of evol, if she never existed Evol would be a better series because her actions just served to raise the bar of what should be expected of the others

Devotion: she beats Amata because hers is selfless (Amata's is all about "how much I wish Mikono was as devoted to me as I am to her" he expects something in return, Zessica knows she will get jack shit for hers)
Fighting fate: She so far, and unless they decide to launch a fast one at us in the last episode, is the master of this as she knows there's no fate in her favor unlike Mikono, and still is chasing after the guy she loves.
Concern for others: She knows when to care for other people besides Amata whe the situation calls for it unlike the protagonists!!! (and that's supposed to be Mikono's forte)
Trying to no be a bother/being usefull: She wanted to be the one to go to Altair because that would being the best for everyone, no more conflict, a chance to start anew, and she would get out of the picture for Amata to be with Mikono... until Mix got in the way and messed things up (if she had let Zessica go she and Andy would have saved themselves some drama and would have given the series some time to give us a good reason for why Amata and Mikono should be togheter, it would have also made things more difficult for Mikage)

And the worst part is that the developement has allowed another thing to happen, it made the whole cast a little or a lot (depending on the character) worse because nobody in three episodes has had the decency to wonder how Zessica may be since she is also involved in the whole mess AND THEY HAVE KNOW HER FOR LONGER THAN THEY HAVE KNOW AMATA AND MIKONO!!! So yes Zessica would have been better not existing at all in this series (if Mykage needed a body they could have killed Shrade and then let Mykage have his body since it would be vacant then, that way there will be no need whatsoever to needlessly torture a character that has done no wrong at all)

I really think that Evol will just end up in total dissapointment and my standars for a satisfactory ending have descended so low as to just hopping Zessica is happy by the end of this trainwreck.

This is a sum of my thoughts. I used to love Amata and Mikono (as characters and couple), but it pains me how the awful writing has portrayed them. Same with Zessica, who I didn't want to be a goddamn contender of any triangle. I liked Triple_R's idea, for instance. Mikono would have warmed up to her eventually. It would make Mikono even more likeable when she admits she was wrong, etc.

Mykage is the best character in this point because he is effortlessly trollish, repulsive, loveable and sympathetic at the same time. They haven't made any miss with him... except for making me root for him.

[KleenexGhost]

Thess I agree with you on the relationship stance. Why bring Zessica in if this was the end result. It would also help Mikono's character.

And Mykage is an early contender for Villian of the Year to me.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

I think I have concluded that Apollonius needs to show up, bring flowers, chocolate and massage oil with a huge apology and a promise to make the last 24000 years up to his one true love. He doesn't know what got into him or what he was thinking. Touma was right, Celiane is a harlot and she clearly wasn't all that, seeing how seems to think a dog will do just as well in his stead. The only one who truly loved him and whom he loved was and will always be Touma.

LOL Fudo isn't exactly what I'd call faithful as well. There was attraction between him and Sophia. She's the only one he told he's been around for 12,000 years.

I can't believe I didn't notice at ep 23 Crea sat at Rena's floating wheel chair. The fact she's been watching Apollonius/Fudo for 24,000 years she too has been there since the beginning.

Which seems to support the theory that she was a Dark Angel in the original series.

Mykage figured about Fudou being a spiritual remnant of Apollonius but he hasn't figured out about Rena/Crea.

He asked where Fudo hid his real body.

[Dissix]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't think that having Zessica in the anime was a mistake, but having her fall in love with Amata probably was.

Imagine if Zessica felt pity for the shy and low self-esteem Mikono, and flirted with Amata to try to prod Mikono into following her heart. The "Flying Boner" joke would have been maintained in the early going, but it would instead be about Zessica trying to prompt Mikono into taking action.

I think what would have worked best is if, in addition to this, Zessica had later became close friends with Mikono, and in turn have her occasionally play cheerleader/matchmaker for the Amata/Mikono romance. Basically, make her be to Mikono what Andy was to Amata in the early going. Here is where Zessica being strong where Mikono is weak could have actually worked beautifully in giving Zessica a good, important role to play (with superb execution, Zessica and Mikono could have even been somewhat similar to Rider and Waver over in Fate/Zero).

As another poster had said, Shrade's dead body could have worked decently well as Mykage's tool to take control of an Aquarion. Even the timing is just about perfect - Shrade dies not long before Mykage seizes control of Zessica's body.


Even if the writing staff just didn't want to leave Zessica without a romantic interest in anybody, they could have simply made her half of a secondary romance somewhere down the line, a la Jin/Yunoha and Andy/MIX.

While the love quadrangle made things a little bit extra interesting in the first half or so of the show, its overall impact on the show just isn't worth it, imo. OTOH, with Zessica now being my favorite protagonist in this show, I'm not keen on her being removed from the show entirely (I fear that this show would have felt too straightforward and/or shallow to me without Zessica there). I think that Zessica's role could have been redefined in a way that would keep her appealing (maybe even more appealing than what she already is, particularly to some viewers who tired of her romance-driven angst) without upsetting Amata X Mikono.

Zessica as the plucky action-girl who is loyal to/supportive of her friends, who in lieu of no guy interesting her is eager to play matchmaker for Mikono and be Mikono's "bro", could have been a really nice overall role for her.

i think the only reason zessica didnt end up like that is because the original aquarion revolved around the love triangle, with apollonius, celine, and mikage i think

[Zuul]

Originally Posted by mayumi

I am not a fan of Zessica being Mikono's cheer leader in anyway. Mikono would'nt even shake hands with her. It pissed me off. Zessica should have gotten her own love story like andy-mix, yunoha-jin, cayenne-shrade etc. I will bet if her romance problem with a new guy or operator guy were to drag out till the end like andy-mix did, those blue ray disks would sell like hot cakes. She just has so much love to give. It should be given to a guy who deserves it.

They totally wasted Zessica's potential by making her pine for Amata especially since it looks like fate which they try to convince us as love now, is something she will lose against. Unless they pull a last minute move to fix amata-mikono relationship by claiming Zessica only fell in love with amata cause she is silvia's dark half or she is sirius etc

I agree with you.

Besides I don't like those couples that need heavy exterior help to get together. It means they don't deserve to be in a relationship to begin with.


Anyway. Is it me or Fudou/Appolonius is the biggest asshole of the franchise.
He let the young teenager Appollo die in his place, forcing him to give up on his budding love story with Sylvia, betraying Touma one more time. Now because he does nothing but sit on his ass, the world is about to be destroyed.

I'm so angry at him.

[Gohan78]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Thing is that Mikono and him and haven't actually been able to show real love between each other, for one reason or another - I blame bad writing, that Amata is willing to take even things that should be bad as a positive because it's better than nothing and considering how the positives he listed aren't true...

IMHO the problem with EVOL's main couple is that all their good romantic scenes (the date during the "Love Training", the Skyes of Aquaria screening) happened in the first half of the show. Then the story focused on the secondary pairings (Jin/Yunoha, Andy/MIX) while Amata/Mikono didn't get any more development. Their relationship was basically put on hold for plot reasons and I blame the writers for this.
However we shouldn't forget that those interactions did happen and they validate Amata and Mikono's love.

Mikono has never tried her best, when she tries she quits halfway and becomes a useless damsel in distress.

Mikono is not a fighter. She tried her best with what she can do: supporting Yunoha after Jin's death, cheering up Zessica when she was down (in the bananas episode), connecting people during the Training of the Grave, going on a search for Fudo on her own.
Many viewers conveniently forget her good deeds to concentrate on her shortcomings. It's not even her fault that she is being constantly kidnapped by Kagura.
Mikono never showed romantic feelings towards Kagura. At most she showed embarassment and pity. She shielded him once because she felt that he wasn't completely evil but in dire situations she always called Amata's name.

Amata is a hypocrite, fate was all fine when it was convienent and didn't get in the way of his chances with Mikono

I don't think that Amata is a hypocrite. When he was talking about a fated meeting he was just being poetic. At the time he knew nothing about their past incarnations.
However I admit that the whole "fighting fate" angle has become pointless with the revelation that Amata and Kagura are the same person.

but the moment his other self started argueing over who's more fated for her he tries to pull one up on him even though they're both the same person deep down and their feelings for Mikono are the same. No matter what Amata says doesn't change that he's fated for her and just because he uses buttered up words doesn't make his love for Mikono any more relevant than Kagura's. Especially since Amata's meeting and falling in love with Mikono had everything to do with fate upon their first meeting which has been on a rerun ever since with very little progress past that stage.

How can you say Kagura and Amata's feelings are the same when Kagura barely talked to Mikono??? At least Amata spent a lot of time with her at the Academy, went on dates with her, shared his innermost feelings with her.
Kagura is not in love with Mikono but with the image of Sylvie. Notice that he doesn't even call her by her real name. Their feelings can't be any more different. At least on this aspect the writers did a good job.