One Piece - Chapter 695 [manga]

[Randrak42]

How can you say Luffy didn't grow stronger? He struggled with most of the opponents he defeated except when he fought guys much weaker than the ones from before (like Bellamy). The strength of his opponent escalated through the series and the fact that he struggled but beat gradually stronger enemies means he grew stronger as he went on...Luffy at the start of the series couldn't beat guys like Crocodile or Enel (mentioning those before gears). Hell I doubt Luffy at the start of the series could beat Wapool or even Arlong for that matter.

Also, the Shichibukai + the admirals are the counter to the Yonkou, the yonkou alone are too much for any of the single group to handle.

[mrShady]

Originally Posted by Randrak42

How can you say Luffy didn't grow stronger? He struggled with most of the opponents he defeated except when he fought guys much weaker than the ones from before (like Bellamy). The strength of his opponent escalated through the series and the fact that he struggled but beat gradually stronger enemies means he grew stronger as he went on...Luffy at the start of the series couldn't beat guys like Crocodile or Enel (mentioning those before gears). Hell I doubt Luffy at the start of the series could beat Wapool or even Arlong for that matter.

Also, the Shichibukai + the admirals are the counter to the Yonkou, the yonkou alone are too much for any of the single group to handle.

That relative small increment of strength increase aside he could still have beaten wapol even if he was his first opponent. And Arlong is early series for me, but also the first villain to give Luffy some trouble, but never anything as serious like Croc or in lesser sense Enel. Luffy was never at a disadvantage in the Buggy, fatso woman and Kuro fights, he hardly had to try.
The only real difference in strength Luffy had is when the gears were introduced, he about doubled his strength and speed. You really can't compare that to a couple of months of natural progression.

I already mentioned the reason why the Shichibukai were introduced, but explain to me why the Marines would use untrustworthy pirates as a fighting force if the VA's are just as strong or stronger.
I consider the current Luffy stronger then most of the Shichibukai barring perhaps Mihawk (who just like Garp outclasses his supposed equals) and Joker (who he might rival).
Thus going by my assumption that the average Shichibukai is stronger then a VA I consider Luffy more powerful then any of the VA's and thus pretty high level. For me this makes the most sense story wise, Oda never used many power ups and so for Luffy to be capable of defeating upcoming opponents he has to be pretty tough already.

[Libros]

Originally Posted by mrShady

That relative small increment of strength increase aside he could still have beaten wapol even if he was his first opponent. And Arlong is early series for me, but also the first villain to give Luffy some trouble, but never anything as serious like Croc or in lesser sense Enel. Luffy was never at a disadvantage in the Buggy, fatso woman and Kuro fights, he hardly had to try.
The only real difference in strength Luffy had is when the gears were introduced, he about doubled his strength and speed. You really can't compare that to a couple of months of natural progression.

I already mentioned the reason why the Shichibukai were introduced, but explain to me why the Marines would use untrustworthy pirates as a fighting force if the VA's are just as strong or stronger.
Any way I consider current Luffy stronger then most of the Shichibukai barring perhaps Mihawk (who just like Garp outclasses his supposed equals) and Joker (who he might rival).
And going by the logic that the average Shichibukai can beat any VA I consider Luffy stronger then the VA's.

I'm guessing the reason they're using the Shichibukai is because well..if they're meant to counter the Yonkou, they'll need a decent amount of fighting force. Imagine on a mission to kill Big Mam: Sakazuki was killed. Could you imagine how quickly the Marine's world would fall straight to hell? Remember how much trouble they had Vs whitebeard alone? Granted, he was the strongest pirate at that time but still...he easily stomped half of the marine's elites. Alot of the reason they won is cause the Shichibukai were there to back up the VAs and Admirals. Imagine if they weren't there. Oz Jr possibly might have taken longer to defeat, may have even caused worse casualties on the Marine's end. Hell, team WB might have even had an easier time getting Ace. True, Luffy may or may not have been captured and/or killed by pacifistas, since Hancock wouldn't be there to save him. And who knows what else might have happened? we're not even sure how strong the other Yonkou are but I'm damn sure they're complete monsters in terms of power-level. Though, your point does stand, the Shichibukai are seriously unpredictable and is it questionable that the Marines are using them to fight pirates? Yes. Is it worth it to get rid of the pirate scum? Eh, probably. You never know; there are many shades of gray after all. Though you should remember, Luffy has enemies he shouldn't be fighting.

For example, Momonga, he's obviously a swordsman, do you think Luffy could beat him easily or even at all? They can both use Haki, he might even be better at using it than him(Luffy). And in a normal fight Luffy could end up hacked to pieces. Is he still stronger than Momonga? I'd have to say no. Same deal for him VS Hawkeyes, except the fight would be even shorter and easier for Mihawk.

[mrShady]

I know their reason for using the Shichibukai, but if the Shichibukai aren't stronger then the VA's they aren't really worth the risk. They instead should've focused on getting more VA's in their ranks. Yet they don't. And yes there's enough talent for that in the world. Just look at the ex non pirates Luffy gathered from the weakest sea.


Edit: I don't really want to comment on all the possible people Luffy has a disadvantage against because that list is probably endless. But not to be an ass. I think Luffy would be at a disadvantage against Momonga, but I don't see him lose that fight. Mihawk would be a different story, though I really wonder how far Luffy could push him, but yes he would probably lose. So yes obviously it depends on the individual that Luffy faces, but in general sense I think he can beat a lot of high level folk.

[Randrak42]

Originally Posted by mrShady

That relative small increment of strength increase aside he could still have beaten wapol even if he was his first opponent. And Arlong is early series for me, but also the first villain to give Luffy some trouble, but never anything as serious like Croc or in lesser sense Enel. Luffy was never at a disadvantage in the Buggy, fatso woman and Kuro fights, he hardly had to try.
The only real difference in strength Luffy had is when the gears were introduced, he about doubled his strength and speed. You really can't compare that to a couple of months of natural progression.

I already mentioned the reason why the Shichibukai were introduced, but explain to me why the Marines would use untrustworthy pirates as a fighting force if the VA's are just as strong or stronger.
I consider the current Luffy stronger then most of the Shichibukai barring perhaps Mihawk (who just like Garp outclasses his supposed equals) and Joker (who he might rival).
Thus going by my assumption that the average Shichibukai is stronger then a VA I consider Luffy more powerful then any of the VA's and thus pretty high level. For me this makes the most sense story wise, Oda never used many power ups and so for Luffy to be capable of defeating upcoming opponents he has to be pretty tough already.

Granted, Wapol was an idiot and a bad example >_>

But do you think Luffy could have beat say...Enel at the start of the series? (I'm not even gonna bring up Croc because that's just a ridiculous notion....)

Enel was a monster, even Zoro was just destroyed by him and the only reason Luffy could even fight him was because he was immune to Enel's main form of attacking...Luffy basically disarmed Enel of his strongest weapons.

The gears changed everything so we can't even talk about them xD

But let's assume Luffy's at near Yonkou level...and that he was as strong at the start of the series as he was all the way up to Water 7, when he learned the gears. He was strong but also mostly struggled with most of his enemies, there was the threat of losing in his fights (I know shounen BS but still...). But If Luffy's at Yonkou level aside from Admirals and Yonkou, nobody should give him a though match...how does that make for exciting battles?

I don't disagree that some of the Shichibukai are stronger than VAs...but not all of them.

Why did the World Government created the Shichibukai?
Well, first off even with VAs and Admirals the Marines didn't have enough power to equal the Four Emperors at the time, the marines are a large organization with strong individuals but the Yonkou not only had powerful members but each of them seemed to have powerful alliances (just look at WB and the mighty force he called upon).
Secondly, they were pirates with potential for big, nasty things, they were wild cards and capturing most of them would not be easy feats so it was much more beneficial to make deals with them, make them allies and stop them from causing more trouble to the WG. Granted it backfired plenty of times...but no plan's perfect.

They should get more VAs amongst their ranks...cause that's so easy isn't it? Talented and strong marines just grow on trees I hear...

[mrShady]

Originally Posted by Randrak42

Granted, Wapol was an idiot and a bad example >_>

But do you think Luffy could have beat say...Enel at the start of the series? (I'm not even gonna bring up Croc because that's just a ridiculous notion....)

Enel was a monster, even Zoro was just destroyed by him and the only reason Luffy could even fight him was because he was immune to Enel's main form of attacking...Luffy basically disarmed Enel of his strongest weapons.

The gears changed everything so we can't even talk about them xD

But let's assume Luffy's at near Yonkou level...and that he was as strong at the start of the series as he was all the way up to Water 7, when he learned the gears. He was strong but also mostly struggled with most of his enemies, there was the threat of losing in his fights (I know shounen BS but still...). But If Luffy's at Yonkou level aside from Admirals and Yonkou, nobody should give him a though match...how does that make for exciting battles?

I don't disagree that some of the Shichibukai are stronger than VAs...but not all of them.

Why did the World Government created the Shichibukai?
Well, first off even with VAs and Admirals the Marines didn't have enough power to equal the Four Emperors at the time, the marines are a large organization with strong individuals but the Yonkou not only had powerful members but each of them seemed to have powerful alliances (just look at WB and the mighty force he called upon).
Secondly, they were pirates with potential for big, nasty things, they were wild cards and capturing most of them would not be easy feats so it was much more beneficial to make deals with them, make them allies and stop them from causing more trouble to the WG. Granted it backfired plenty of times...but no plan's perfect.

They should get more VAs amongst their ranks...cause that's so easy isn't it? Talented and strong marines just grow on trees I hear...

I see little reason for Luffy not to be able to beat Enel. Yes it would be tough, even more so then during the skypia arc and without all his grandline experience. But still possible and that's because Luffy's fruit is so strong against Enel that I don't think it would have mattered when that fight took place (has to be before the gears obviously).

I don't think the current Luffy will see more then 1 big power up. Most of his improvements will go towards his mastering of Haki.
He mentioned in his fight against Hodi that his Haki wasn't strong enough to fend of cutting attacks and that's probably the defining level of Luffy's current strength and where it at the minimum needs to go before I can see him soloing an admiral or yonkou.
But no currently he might be close to admirals but he will still get beaten. I just don't see 1 admiral owning the monster trio like Aokiji did before. Their training was exactly for that purpose, they were annihilated by a single pacifista and they took a 2 year "break" to never again be beaten in such a way.
And there are loads of problems Oda can think up that disadvantages the strawhats or makes the trio have to sit it out. Just watch and see what will happen, One piece is so enjoyable because it's unpredictable.

If the marines actually took the time to recruit people that are promising like Zoro or Sanji they wouldn't be in such dire needs to need the help of criminals.
Strong pirates pop up everywhere, best example are the supernova's. That means that there are ample strong people around to make new marines from. Yet they turn up on the other side.
The reason that there are so many pirates and even an ongoing revolution is because the WG is not properly doing it's job. Just in the strawhat crew alone there are 3 strong individuals that might possibly have joined the marines if they ever gave a damn to treat them properly.
But we are derailing my initial point and that is
Admirals
Shichibukai
VA's
There are just too many downsides to having a weak untrustworthy pirate as ally. They just have to be 2nd strongest force the marines can drum up.
Obviously if Buggy really is a Shichibukai I'm prepared to eat some dust, but I would do so proudly.

[Libros]

Originally Posted by mrShady

I see little reason for Luffy not to be able to beat Enel. Yes it would be tough, even more so then during the skypia arc and without all his grandline experience. But still possible and that's because Luffy's fruit is so strong against Enel that I don't think it would have mattered when that fight took place (has to be before the gears obviously).

I don't think the current Luffy will see more then 1 big power up. Most of his improvements will go towards his mastering of Haki.
He mentioned in his fight against Hodi that his Haki wasn't strong enough to fend of cutting attacks and that's probably the defining level of Luffy's current strength and where it at the minimum needs to go before I can see him soloing an admiral or yonkou.
But no currently he might be close to admirals but he will still get beaten. I just don't see 1 admiral owning the monster trio like Aokiji did before. Their training was exactly for that purpose, they were annihilated by a single pacifista and they took a 2 year "break" to never again be beaten in such a way.
And there are loads of problems Oda can think up that disadvantages the strawhats or makes the trio have to sit it out. Just watch and see what will happen, One piece is so enjoyable because it's unpredictable.

If the marines actually took the time to recruit people that are promising like Zoro or Sanji they wouldn't be in such dire needs to need the help of criminals.
Strong pirates pop up everywhere, best example are the supernova's. That means that there are ample strong people around to make new marines from. Yet they turn up on the other side.
The reason that there are so many pirates and even an ongoing revolution is because the WG is not properly doing it's job. Just in the strawhat crew alone there are 3 strong individuals that might possibly have joined the marines if they ever gave a damn to treat them properly.
But we are derailing my initial point and that is
Admirals
Shichibukai
VA's
There are just to many downsides to having a weak untrustworthy pirate as ally. They just have to be 2nd strongest force the marines can drum up.
Obviously if Buggy really is a Shichibukai I'm prepared to eat some dust, but I would do so proudly.

Zoro joining the Marines? Possible. But he has a bounty at the beginning so I think he'd have to first face possible capture before getting the chance of being recruited. Or if you meant before he became a bounty hunter? He'd probably join but I don't know if he'd get as strong as he is now in the same amount of time.(I imagine alot of the marines to be fairly rigid and limit the amount of experience he'd get since it's not like they let marines, let alone low-mid level ones just wander around searching for strong enemies to beat)

Sanji- Dunno, I mean, he'd face alot of crap since he treats the pirates he live(d) with at the baratie as family. He'd probably end up as a cook too, so his combat ability might fall while his cooking skill might replace it, he'd probably never learn the Okama skills sadly.

Luffy- No. It's not possible. Have you forgotten how bloodthirsty and..hold on, I'm thinking of a word that means they hate someone so much they'd attack family/friends/anyone that knows them without any thought or anything, the word escapes me at this precise moment but that's how alot of people are in the OP world when it comes to Roger, Dragon etc. So even with Garp's help, he'd probably face execution sooner or later. Even without that, Luffy loves adventure and the fact that he's a pirate and soon-to-be pirate king. Remember his back-story? He met shanks and he was dead set on becoming a pirate. If he hadn't met him, sure. For a while he'd probably join the marines but due to the above, sooner or later he'd meet the ban-hammer and/or get executed. I hate to be negative but really..I can't see this as possible.

Nami - Yes. She'd probably have joined the marines in a heart-beat if they had asked her and beaten Arlong. It's a no-brainer. She'd probably retain alot of her skills as a navigator. And she'd be a real asset to the marines she'd probably learn less in the way of dials and different weather conditions though. Since she probably wouldn't get the chance to explore the entire grand line. She'd probably be holed up at HQ at some point due to her own massive amount of skill & talent.

Usopp - I genuinely don't know.

Chopper - Hiliuk wanted him to become a doctor/Pirate. He pretty much drilled "being a pirate is awesome" into him so if not that, full time doctor. Assuming the people he tries to cure get past his reindeer-ness.

Robin - There's no chance. She'd get executed.

Franky - Eh. Same thing as Chopper/Luffy. He'd either stay the leader of the Franky gang or become a mechanic/Shipwright again. OR if he tried and became a marine at some point he'd get found out and same deal as when Luffy rescued Robin from the CP9 except for the fact that he wouldn't get rescued. That's really sad.

Brook - He'd stay on his ship, wandering Thriller bark.

If I'm missing anyone, lemme know.

[mrShady]

Originally Posted by Libros

Zoro joining the Marines? Possible. But he has a bounty at the beginning so I think he'd have to first face possible capture before getting the chance of being recruited. Or if you meant before he became a bounty hunter? He'd probably join but I don't know if he'd get as strong as he is now in the same amount of time.(I imagine alot of the marines to be fairly rigid and limit the amount of experience he'd get since it's not like they let marines, let alone low-mid level ones just wander around searching for strong enemies to beat)

Sanji- Dunno, I mean, he'd face alot of crap since he treats the pirates he live(d) with at the baratie as family. He'd probably end up as a cook too, so his combat ability might fall while his cooking skill might replace it, he'd probably never learn the Okama skills sadly.

Luffy- No. It's not possible. Have you forgotten how bloodthirsty and..hold on, I'm thinking of a word that means they hate someone so much they'd attack family/friends/anyone that knows them without any thought or anything, the word escapes me at this precise moment but that's how alot of people are in the OP world when it comes to Roger, Dragon etc. So even with Garp's help, he'd probably face execution sooner or later. Even without that, Luffy loves adventure and the fact that he's a pirate and soon-to-be pirate king. Remember his back-story? He met shanks and he was dead set on becoming a pirate. If he hadn't met him, sure. For a while he'd probably join the marines but due to the above, sooner or later he'd meet the ban-hammer and/or get executed. I hate to be negative but really..I can't see this as possible.

Nami - Yes. She'd probably have joined the marines in a heart-beat if they had asked her and beaten Arlong. It's a no-brainer. She'd probably retain alot of her skills as a navigator. And she'd be a real asset to the marines she'd probably learn less in the way of dials and different weather conditions though. Since she probably wouldn't get the chance to explore the entire grand line. She'd probably be holed up at HQ at some point due to her own massive amount of skill & talent.

Usopp - I genuinely don't know.

Chopper - Hiliuk wanted him to become a doctor/Pirate. He pretty much drilled "being a pirate is awesome" into him so if not that, full time doctor. Assuming the people he tries to cure get past his reindeer-ness.

Robin - There's no chance. She'd get executed.

Franky - Eh. Same thing as Chopper/Luffy. He'd either stay the leader of the Franky gang or become a mechanic/Shipwright again. OR if he tried and became a marine at some point he'd get found out and same deal as when Luffy rescued Robin from the CP9 except for the fact that he wouldn't get rescued. That's really sad.

Brook - He'd stay on his ship, wandering Thriller bark.

If I'm missing anyone, lemme know.

I never said all the strawhats.
The specific 3 I talked about were

Zoro
Robin
and Franky.
All 3 have been misused and discriminated against.
Zoro was already known as a pirate hunter yet still locked up and never once approached by the marines to join their ranks.
Robin is an exceptionally smart and talented person from a young age who never did the WG any harm. She was persecuted only for knowing the ancient text. And instead of taking her off the island and grooming her to suit the WG they did the opposite fueling her anti WG views. No shit she's against them.
Franky is a talented shipwright who saw his master being prosecuted for building a ship. afaik he only did his job yet the WG attacked him for it. Had they instead treated his master as the genius that he was Franky might have turned into a master shipwright for the marines.

The WG has been digging it's own grave for years and has to rely on common criminals to keep their so called order and justice. So it's no wonder there aren't that many strong people in the marines they keep on pissing people off.

But I've gone completely off my offtopic discussion so I'll just end it here.