2010-09-04, 01:28 | Link #17181 | ||||
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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To expose all the dirty things about the story. Telling horrible truths is much worse than any lie you could make up. Quote:
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Under your scenario, Bern is lying because, uh, she's a bad person and bad people lie? Because she wants to be mean to the new characters? Because telling lies is somehow more painful than actual secrets? I would rather have a consistent character. Quote:
Which reminds me, what purpose do Will and Lyon serve under your scenario? Pointless idiots that decided to die and live respectively for a lie? Filler characters that Bern brought in to torture and then kill for shits and giggles? Saps that bought into an elaborate lie created to fool ONLY them? Like, you might have a point if the main character of the game was Ange or something. But it's not. It's Lyon and Will. Their existence is pointless if you want it to be a lie. They just become agents in feeding the lie to the reader, nothing more. Ryukishi is laughing at the people that cried at their last stand, two people that loved Claire enough to want to live for her happiness at all costs, and died defying the idea that she was doomed to be miserable? Well, okay, if that's the sort of story you want.
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2010-09-04, 01:44 | Link #17182 | |||
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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We're supposed to see it as a troll. Quote:
There are facts being obscured by the presentation, and our objective should be to sift the actual facts from the embellishment. You're the one that questioned the potential for embellishment, and that's my argument for how there is room, in even the most seemingly irrelevant and minor details. Quote:
Based on Ange's role in both Episodes 4 and 6, Ange can be considered a stand-in for the reader, as someone who is reading these stories, and also trying to break open the cat box of Rokkenjimma, thereby uncovering the one "truth" of what happened during those two days. So if Ange is the stand-in for the reader, and Bern is trolling Ange, then therefore, she is also trolling us. Ryukishi has made no bones about treating the readers as involved parties in the story, and that theme was first introduced in Episode 6. There's opportunity and it's within the scope of the character to pull such a stunt. I don't understand why you're blinding yourself to that distinct possibility. |
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2010-09-04, 01:53 | Link #17185 |
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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Ange wasn't the reader. She only appeared in the Tea Party. The Tea Party continued after her death. It obviously wasn't being put on for her. She was not the one being trolled, because she had no expectation of anything good from Bern, and she hadn't seen any of the previous game.
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2010-09-04, 01:54 | Link #17186 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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Just being made into Ange burgers? Creating bizarre ships? Hallucinating about ass-neechans? Unlike you, I like to believe what Im reading has a point. |
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2010-09-04, 01:58 | Link #17187 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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She's there in the Tea Party because it was important that she be confronted with the fact that her cherished dreams about the truth and the nature of her "happy family" were just that. Dreams. In other words, that moment is the same moment as Battler in EP5, realizing that "beating the evil witch" actually meant "torturing and murdering the woman I love." If you mean the point of Ange as a character, she was there to mainly explain the theme of magic and how it functioned in EP4. She functions as an ultimately tragic character because of her inability to move on from the tragedy that defined her life. In EP6, she also functioned as a reflection of the readers. But that's not all she has been, and probably not all she will be. I think, in the last ep, she will be a reflection of the purpose of "love" (fiction) in our lives. EDIT: Agreeing with this, completely. The Tea Party might be true on a technical level, but there's no doubt in my mind we have more to learn about things. And the things we learn will probably transform our understanding of what we saw.
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Last edited by musouka; 2010-09-04 at 03:00. |
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2010-09-04, 03:30 | Link #17189 | |
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What we know is, that after Natsuhi refused to take the baby Kinzo had no further contact with it. He got informed that the baby fell down a cliff and died, while Genji and Nanjo organized a forged identity to smuggle the child back into Rokkenjima via the Fukuin orphanage. Kinzo had never any part in that, at least according to EP7. He was desperate and lonely and had a total breakdown once he learned that the last Beatrice was dead. But I forgot, it's one of the "epic trolls" that is EP7... OT: The only good thing when Umineko is over is that hopefully the word trolling will go back where it belongs >_>
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2010-09-04, 04:14 | Link #17190 |
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So then we have inconsistent information. Again. And about Kinzo. Again. If you look, you'll find a lot of that. I wonder what that means?
For instance, look at the two completely different claims Kinzo is depicted as making about Beatrice-1's death. Being Kinzo, of course, we can't really easily corroborate either, but still, how curious. Has it occurred to any of the Bernkastel Fan Club that what Featherine has, wants, or is getting is no more provably what is true than what is expected? Again, there is a massive disconnect in capacity to understand the difference between a fact and a claim. What someone says they will do is not necessarily what they will actually do when they are a known deceiver. We have to watch their words and their actions carefully, and we cannot take their stated motives at face value. This applies not just to Bernkastel, but to Featherine, and at this point in the story even to Battler (I certainly question how he can claim a story like this isn't bad or scary, but I guess we'll see). There aren't a lot of people whose claims can be readily trusted. Please understand the differences between evidence, facts, and claims. If you think someone has no reason to lie because of the objective they have stated, consider whether that objective is entirely honest.
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2010-09-04, 04:54 | Link #17191 |
18782+18782=37564
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Judging from how the discussion is going, it's no wonder Ryuukishi had to release ep6 at all. Almost everyone here really is forgetting the one essential element that fundamentally made this whole story. If Ryuukishi's trolling anyone, he's trolling people who thinks like us who have no love.
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2010-09-04, 05:17 | Link #17192 | |
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What about my love?! Huh?
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2010-09-04, 05:42 | Link #17193 |
18782+18782=37564
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At this point in the game, I have lost interest to the how or who dunnit.
I will not accept any theory that doesn't present big enough reason for the culprit to carry on these murders. 心が無いミステリーなんて絶対えに認めねえ。
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2010-09-04, 07:05 | Link #17194 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Musouka, normally I'd agree with you, but it seems you are not looking at the big picture if you ask me.
I'm totally for the idea that an author can't tell us a bunch of lies, but that's unless he gives us some element to understand they are lies. We have some very strong elements to distrusts what bern has shown to us. Now if the tea party ended with the death of Lion from Kyrie I'd totally agree with you. But what do we make of Will outright denying Bern's story and calling it "fantasy"? What do we make of Battler telling Ange that the truth of Rokkenjima isn't a scary story? I'm not refusing to believe to what the characters said, I simply choose which among two clearly contradictory statements made by characters I want to believe to. Now let's see whom I want to believe to? Bern and Featherinne or Will and Battler? Uhmmm hard choice! If I then add to this that the story shown in Bern's tea party is as credible as an alien conspiracy theory, then the matter is settled for what concerns me. There might still be things that are true on Bern's story, well one thing I'm sure it's true, unless that Ange Lion saw was a fake. If she was a real Ange and not an illusion made to fool Lion (but I don't really believe so) then the 1km wide crater is true. I'll have to ask you this mousoka. If you really believe that Ryuukishi wouldn't show something for no reason, then why do you think he showed us Will denying the "truth" Bern presented? Why he made Will use quotation marks if it was the truth? Why he made Will saying that it's fantasy?
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2010-09-04, 07:35 | Link #17195 | ||
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He's sad because he lost Beatrice. He's happy everytime he gains Beatrice back. He's angry with his family because his stuck with them instead of Beatrice. Where is the inconsistency?! Quote:
Of course there never were 7 different events happening on Rokkenjima at the same time and just happened to combine into one future after the explosion again, probably none of the events we've seen so far is 'what really happened', but that still does not mean that it isn't something that could have happened. What bothers me the most is that the Tea Party is cast away by so many as a flat out lie, without even considering what could be the worth in that story to us as a reader. Ryukishi is not Bernkastel and we are not Ange, that means there is no use in showing that event if it did not have any merit at all. We still have to remember that the difficulty of EP7 is implied to be a little bit above EP6 by Ryukishi...
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2010-09-04, 07:50 | Link #17196 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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And if they are not the culprits then you can't deny that almost everything that was shown in the tea party is false. Let's stop pretending that this is a matter of believing to the author or not. The author gave us two truths: Bern/Featherinne's truth and Will/Battler's truth. The only difference is that the first truth was explained in detail while the second truth is merely a negation of the first, but still a truth. This is a matter of which truth you want to choose. Or rather which truth you think is more probable according to your reasoning. My reasoning tells me that Bern's truth is 95% wrong.
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2010-09-04, 09:01 | Link #17199 | |
別にいいけど
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Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The tea party alone. Will never had any problem accepting the truth of the story Claire narrated, of course Will probably interpreted easily the magic scenes.
However Will strongly denies the validity of a story showing Rudolf and Kyrie as the culprits. There must be a reason. Quote:
There are then a few facts that do not make sense in a story created by Bern to give Ange the worst possible answer. 1) George marriage proposal. 2) The total lack of an explanation to what happens to Battler.
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2010-09-04, 09:27 | Link #17200 |
18782+18782=37564
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Right, the tea party alone. I also deny Bern's truth from the tea party, though I carry a different approach. My theoretical truth is achieved by negating every fact in that tea party (aside from previously established facts, whatever that maybe), it will become something like:
- the siblings never found the gold - Kyrie and Rudolf never killed anyone (though the fact that the victims die is undebatable, else it won't be a mystery story) - George never proposed to Shannon - Shannon doesn't love George more than Battler - Eva is not a sole survivor - There is only one culprit - There is no bomb - and so on... Outrageous, I know. But it's better than believing Kyrie killed everyone. I refuse to believe that Kyrie had enough reason to murder the siblings, the cousins, and even all the servants, for 1 billion where she could've gotten money without killing if the gold were to be divided as planned.
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