2007-07-21, 16:30 | Link #361 |
Field Medic
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only tangentially related ( explained later...) but after watching episode 14, I have a thought
the STAB has apparently replaced use of 'mass-based physical technology' with 'magical civilisation' on administered worlds, according to Fate, Caro and Erio's discussion in the chopper... the question is...HOW? Now obviously , this doesn't affect the kinds of low end weapons that define low end crime...there will always be knives, hammer etc. You can't build a civilization without nails, and a hammer can be used to hit a person on the head just as easily as a nail, but... the removal of technologised weapons, from guns up to strategic type weapons is not just a technological, but a political process. just as much to the point, it is in fact taking the freedom to defend yourself (or for Nations to prevent aggression) from the common man and placing it in the hands of the privileged few who are lucky enough to be born with magical power. Now, in theory, as long as those few are fair and efficient, and willing to accept their responsibility to protect all the others, it shouldn't be a problem, right...? But we all know, power has a tendency to corrupt...and absolute power corrupts absolutely... But even corruption isn't necessary. If the mages slack off, or look down upon the non-mages, the system has failed right there...what happens then...? so, in 75-150 years, they have managed to turn multiple civilizations away from their comfortable technology based lives to embrace an entirely different philosophy that puts absolute power in the hands of a lucky few born with it? the trouble is, I can only see that turning out in three ways, which are: 1: STAB shows up, bombs the civilization into the stone age (literally!) and then rebuilds it from the ground up... 2: The STAB move into worlds that have already done this to themselves with nuclear weapons 3: the STAB infiltrate worlds and convince them to enact no. 2 for them. This obviously paints the STAB in a far less complimentary light than previously, but I can't see them being able to do it any other way. As a result, if this is true, it provides circumstantial evidence that Mages (as a group, not necessarily individually) have some means to defend against even strategic-level thermonuclear weapons, because if these civilizations had them when the STAB arrived to carry out this plan, they would have used them...and yet the STAB clearly has won despite this. imagine the STAB trying to turn Earth into an administered world, for example...would the governments of the world put away their nukes, step down and hand power over to a bunch of kids that have power merely through accident of birth? Like hell they would! They'd give 'em hell with a hand grenade, not to mention any and every other form of weapon available to them, up to, and including strategic Thermonuclear weapons if they got pushed hard enough... |
2007-07-21, 16:36 | Link #362 | ||||||||||
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Hmm, calmer, and much more organised. *nods* we're moving back in the right direction.
But... just to be on the safe side... please know that in no way am I trying to annoy you Erio. I am just misunderstanding your points at times, and disagreeing on others. I am sincerely hoping that after this we can simply shake hands, congratulate on an agreement, and move along. Quote:
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I will go through the list point for point, so be asured I will read all of it. I even made a card below to clarify just where the mage decided to stop running and start tanking. Spoiler for the list:
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As you can see, the mage cleared the "Absolute Painless Death" area, made it through the "Horrendously Conflagarated" part, and the greatest part of the "Well Done Skeleton" part. The part where he is now should be survivable, with damage being along the lines of the stronger buildings being torn, but not leveled. Of course, this is asuming you're an air mage. If you're a ground mage... well... better hope your budies have teleporters, cause I don't think you will even make it out of the "Absolute Painless Death" area. Quote:
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It's a magical weapon with a destructive radius worse then any nuke in our planets current arsenal. It was said to be able to lay waste to the city. It is a magical weapon of mass destruction. And the TSAB authorized it. What the TSAB banned were the kind of weapons that anyone could use. To quote Fate: "Even a child could push a button and end the world." Quote:
Still... the ratio thing is odd, unproven, and riddled with guesses. I'm having trouble painting it as reliable. Quote:
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@ Stormturmoil: I think we are looking at the reason why there are stil non-administrated worlds. It's a political process that takes time. Though with the entire policing issue, I can't help but agree. That is a rather curious turn of events. Though you have to remember, earth seems to be somewhat rare in the way that it has few with magic potential. Last edited by Keroko; 2007-07-21 at 16:56. |
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2007-07-21, 18:54 | Link #363 | |||||||||||||
Hiromi
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Girl who Lost her Tears
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I dont know about you, but being surprised by a nuke seems much more probable than being ready for one. And considering you have to travel quite a distance to be in a "safe area", if you dont fly fast like Nanoha or Fate, you're screwed. Quote:
Nanoha, against both Diabolic Emission and Starlight Breaker, used a Round Shield to defend Fate and herself. Quote:
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As for why it physically hits the drones, my best guess is the barrier part of the Variable Shoot. A barrier is able to stop a physical attack, so that just means it has physical properties. Quote:
Now, I've had this discussion before with Lowe, that's why I know what to say. The Arc-en-Ciel is so powerful that its considered a "spacial and dimensional attack". Such power can rip through anything--its like an eraser; you are disintegrated from existence--, and given its nature (Magic) it can be more devastating than a Nuke (which has thresholds and limitations). That said, the Arc-en-Ciel is still Magical in nature, and thus it is allowed. (unless they reveal that its source is Technology, in which case it would make it some sort of particle beam cannon--a super weapon--, and it deals physical damage) Quote:
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The only problem is that I dont think BJs give you a constant total-body field defense. The BJ are created with all those types of defenses imbued into them, however I dont think they give you a protection to parts of your body that they dont cover. That just seems too cheesy to me. And as far as I know, there is no proof for this. Quote:
And I will stop arguing about Barrier Jackets altogether. Again I say, I just dont see them as awesome as you guys do. In the examples I have been giving, like the one above where a mage is hit by a Nuclear explosion, the BJ's protection, even if it covers the entire mage, should not be good enough to save the mage anyway. So this doesnt really matter to me, again I say. @stormturmoil No arguments from me. All you said is true. Maybe all the planets under the administration of the TSAB are not technological advanced like ours? Maybe its one of the reasons why Earth is still a non-administrated planet. A good way of approach would be, hey, we can give you instruments to travel through space, and many other benefits that come from the use of magic through technology, if you agree to our terms. And their terms are: just stop the usage/production/etc of conventional weapons to preserve peace. Does that make sense to me? Not exactly. It is a possibility, though. |
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2007-07-21, 21:56 | Link #364 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Depending on the percentage of mages within the general population, it is possible that the new arrangement actually provides more equality than a technologized system. For example, in a technological based system, an army can attack a civilian population under the advantages of armored vehicles, suppressive artillery, precision bombing ... etc. While the advantage is minimized in guerilla warfare and urban fighting, the firepower advantage is still there and makes the situation very bloody for the city's civvie defenders. And that's if the civilian defenders have rifles and the like - if they don't their only recourse is surrender. If we assume that a fair proportion of the citizenship are mages, however, the situation is different. In a magic-only system, the invasion will be infantry on infantry (of course, you can Arc-cen-ciel them, but that's a different story). Sure, the military infantry will be better trained, but that's as far as the advantage goes. The military infantry will be badly outnumbered, and with no other support, be at a disadvantageous Correlation of Force, which leaves them no choice but to retreat. Quote:
Even if we assume Earth's governments will resort to the stupid tactic of randomly flinging nukes, it will be difficult to destroy a target who could always teleport back to his ship. It is also possible to cast a barrier so humans won't be able to move and destroy some equipment in the meantime. Heck, they don't even have to be human - they can disguise themselves as animals (Yuuno). The options are endless. The point is mobility in a compact, hard-to-acquire man-package, not defense. More likely they'd soon realize the futility of neutralizing the Midchildran's means of fire destruction (mages) and surrender. If a target's acquired well enough, he's more likely to be threatened by a sneak attack from a sniper's bullet when he's not on alert (say he's sleeping) than a nuke that's brought into the theater by trackable means. Personally, however, I view this whole peace agreement as a shock residue. Kind of like how WWI caused the League of Nations and WWII caused the United Nations. Warfare using full blown nuclear or better weaponry could only be more devastating, and thus for a moment, the sheer horror of the war caused everyone to decide to compromise for awhile, and by the time they got their senses back, all the weapons are in scrapheaps, so there's no choice but to adhere to the new system. As an side, personally, I wonder how many Terrans really have hidden magical skills (storywise). The few that are found so far seem to be top-class. From observation, they are found ridiculously close together, even in a small town (Nanoha and Hayate both live in Uminari, a small town). Suppose Uminari is a town of 50000, that's 2 out of 25000. Assuming a normal distribution, we should have about 200,000 potential over-S mages in our land (assuming a 5 billion person population), which is probably more than the sum total that exists elsewhere, with correspondingly greater numbers of AAA and lower mages. Perhaps we are just a goldmine of mages yet to be mined. |
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2007-07-22, 09:53 | Link #365 |
Field Medic
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The problem with relying on the enemy to surrender is that in a case like this, it only takes one big player to not do, and you have a terrible mess left to clean up...
which may, as has been suggested, be why Earth hasn't been approached as a potential Administered world. However, more interesting to me is the power shift behind this. For one thing, it makes a mockery of the Democratic ideal that all people are equal: in the Nanohverse, people most definitely are not all equal. That being the case, is democraocy or some variant of such even a viable possibility given that it's underlying principle is just outright wrong in this case... Not that that's a criticism in itself. I myself believe that democracy as currently practiced in inherently flawed, since only those who run for the positions can get them, regardless of intent or ability. In other words, we are giving political power only to those who 1: already have some degree of power (in that they can campaign, pay deposits, etc) and 2: want power for the sake of having power. Obviously that's a simplification, but it is observably true in some cases. In the meantime, people who would genuinely be better suited to having that power do not or cannot get it because they do not (or cannot) run for election. As a result, elections favour those who want power for having power's own sake, who in my opinion are exactly the kind of people we should be trying to keep from having power at all Personally, I'd favour replacing elections with a system similar to that used to select juries. After all, that is both representative and democratic and already trusted to deliver fair results. What I'm getting at is (and we haven't really seen the answer yet, so it's basically a speculative question) given that the STAB is the administrative force on a whole bunch of worlds, how exactly are these worlds governed? Is there an elected governer or council? do the worlds have the right to representation? or is the STAB a form of Benevolent dictatorship where the STAB keeps the peace, by limiting the rights of the populace? |
2007-07-29, 18:15 | Link #367 |
This is mah flash sword.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: CA
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I'm beginning to feel the TSAB is something like the UN, as opposed to just 'Midchilda's Navy.' From the way Regius talks I get the sense that the Midchildan political establishment sees the TSAB as an external weight hanging over it even though their civilization gave birth to it.
More of a political idea than technological, but it was getting some attention at the top of the page. |
2007-08-04, 09:42 | Link #368 | |
Human
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Currently - Germany
Age: 38
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Moving here from the Image thread.
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2007-08-04, 10:54 | Link #375 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
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You have to remember, for them, conventional/physical weapons means it doesn't use magic. It could still be well-advanced compared to what we or they can manage. It's not hard to imagine something that advanced would a require a sophisticated control system, with specific characteristics.
And I already stated my opinion that the "too easy to use to cause mass destruction" thing is propaganda. |
2007-08-04, 11:05 | Link #377 | |
We're Back
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Redgrave City
Age: 35
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It's all about resources. Several years ago maybe people like Vivio could be easily aquired, but 75 years down the road, the situation might not be the same.
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2007-08-04, 11:10 | Link #378 | |
Human
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Currently - Germany
Age: 38
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2007-08-04, 11:16 | Link #379 |
We're Back
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Redgrave City
Age: 35
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"convenience, lack of unnecessary elements, usually mass production, fail-safety measures etc."
Convenience... Last time I've check, the best and most advanced computers seems out of reach to the common man. Unnecessary elements... You haven't even seen it work yet. Mass production... You want quality, it's going to cost you. That's why it's call 'Hi-tech'. fail-safety measures... You haven't even seen it work yet. Come on, seriously... THat's why they're called hi tech...
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2007-08-04, 11:20 | Link #380 |
Human
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Currently - Germany
Age: 38
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75 years is 3 generations at most, unless the whole civilization disappeared like Al Hazard what could've happened? Anyway if it's possible to make weapons only operable by very certain people I see NO problem with safety here, no problem at all. It'd be exactly the same as Arc-en-Ciels's magical lock now, just on biological level instead. |
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