[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

Ah I see, I get it now.

[MagiToxin]

I don't remember perfectly but I seem to remember Ange was thinking about this contradiction of being friendly with the stakes, however she came to the conclusions that furniture are tools, they are neither evil nor good, it's the one that commands them to be blamed. That is true for any POV. Of course you may argue that from the anti-mistery perspective, while the stakes didn't kill by their will, they still enjoyed it. However I think that even the cruelty and ill intent of a furniture mirrors the one of the user. That is why the stakes are not so evil when summoned by Ange.
Mammon also said: "I can't kill if you don't have the will to kill someone with your own hands." And that basically mean that the stakes are perfectly harmless if summoned by a pacifist.
In other words whatever applies for weapons in the anti-fantasy also applies for furniture (who are created from weapon vessels) in the anti-mistery.

Hmmm...that's actually a valid point. So what you're saying if I were to wield a knife in my hand and use it to stab someone, my will is transferred to the knife...however, suppose I gave my friend a commemorative knife (one of those Star Trek Collectibles or Lord of the Rings that are actually very sharp), he would look at it and stroke it everyday, thus making it into an a cute furniture rather than a weapon of death.
Hmm, I get you what you're saying. Thank you, Jan-Poo, I guess I'm still ticked off how giddy the stakes were when they killed everyone (especially Battler).

As for Kinzo's multiple appearances, I believe there is no one 'true' theory but a multitude of coincidences that helped keeping the illusion alive. Remember, Kinzo and Beatrice are a fans of coincidences and chance keeping the power of their magic alive.

Spoiler for Roger Ackroyd illusion:

For those who read 'The Murder of Roger Ackroyd', the murderer left a record player with the victim's voice after he left. Thus, the servants who passed by the door were led to believe that the victim was still alive. The murderer only intended to change the time of murder so it doesn't coincide with the time when he was in the mansion. To the murderer's surprise, what followed next were a series of coincidences that led everyone to believe the victim was killed several hours the next day. The head maid claimed she was with the victim to avoid suspicion on the time she was missing, the daughter claimed she was with the victim to cover the fact she was upstairs stealing, etc etc...and the whole thing snowballed after that.

Spoiler for kinzo:

Kinzo: probably passed away naturally, body preserved only to be cremated eventually.

Genji: Served his master for his entire life, probably couldn't comprehend a life without being ordered so he still hallucinates Kinzo talking to him. Since he understands him so well, his illusions are those more 'in character' for Kinzo than the rest.

Natushi: was probably talking to a picture of Kinzo and wishfully thinking how he would be kind to her.

Nanjo: Knows about Kinzo's death and is paid to shut up about it.

By the way, about Maria's father.

Spoiler for maria:

Has anyone put forth the possibility she is the result of rape? I don't know, I kinda got the feeling when Rosa violently woke up in Ep1 after Genji placed a blanket on her.

[Marion]

@MagiToxin

Spoiler for Replying to Maria, EP 4:

Rosa states in the scene where Maria kills her that the man that made her pregnant with Maria was her long-term boyfriend and left her when he found out she was pregnant. So I doubt that it's from rape, unless the boyfriend raped her.

[Jan-Poo]

By the way, about Maria's father.

Spoiler for maria:

Has anyone put forth the possibility she is the result of rape? I don't know, I kinda got the feeling when Rosa violently woke up in Ep1 after Genji placed a blanket on her.

Spoiler for episode4:

Hard to tell, but in episode4 Rosa for the first time tells us something about that man, I dunno how much reliable it is, anyway from the way she describes that man it seems unlikely that he is a rapist, because it seems Rosa wished he remained with her instead of running away. I hope I got it right...

[Kamel]

Great game And indeed fitting conclusion for the quetion arcs

Spoiler for About the red truths concerning Battler's sin:

First two red truths concerning the sin are:
“Six years ago for me, no person called Beatrice existed” [which is very intresting on its own because it is unique red text which was said by Butler without him even noticing, unlike other times it was not by Beato's permission, and it was not explained in any way]
The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice.

These two are really obvious evasions, we know from the beginning that the Beatrice is probably not her real name. Dus all it takes is for him to know her by a difrent one and/or her herself not calling herself Beatrice yet at the time. There may have been no Beatrice but the person that became Beatrice later might have been there .

Another bath from later in the game
Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's son
Ushiromiya Battlers mother is Ushiromiya Asumu
My name is Ushiromiya Battler
These Red texts shows without shadow of doubt that there are or at least were two “Ushromiya Battler's”
And going back to the issue of the “sin”
Ushoromiya Battler has a sin.
Because of your sin people die
Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die No one escapes, all die
Wording of two last red truths concerning the “sin” seems to indicate that it was indeed “our” Battler that committed that “sin”. Due to/Because of your sin and right the and then she was most certainly talkng to meta - Battler not some other person.

Spoiler for Some impresions concerning the whole game:

What episode 4 clerly shown by Kinzo's example is that we really have no way of knowing if something is not a part of Witches Ilusion. How many other “Kinzo's”, hidden agents of Supernatural can there be among the 17. We stil do not even know if 17 is a right number, for all we know there might far less then that. Because of this I have to conclude that anything not seen by Battler pretty much didn't happen, no matter how inocent and down to earth it might have seemed. And yeah by this chapter Kanon is god damn suspicious, so many times when his corpse was missing plus his apearence as “zombie” in episode two makes it pretty damn certain that something is up. Aditionally with current amount of red text it seems very likely that some sort of play witch fake names and double identeties/ personalities is in motion. In such a trick Canon and Shanon are in the center of attention as they are the ones of whom we already know that their names are aliases , hell not once do we have in red text that Sayo is dead only “Shanon”.

[Jan-Poo]

Doesn't this red truth open a whole new way to consider the red truths?

Some time ago I pointed out how the red truths mentioning names could be completely invalid if those names do not refer to the persons we know of.
For example if someone says:

Gohda is dead

It has absolutely no meaning unless it is specified which Gohda died. Because sure there are certainly been a lot of Gohda who died in the past.

This episode4 seems to confirm my fears:

Names are not exclusive

And we know that this trick has already been used. A name of a person we know of has been used referring to an omonymous person we don't know anything about.

Then what can prevent us to question if the various:

Nanjo died
Genji died
Kumasawa died

etc etc, actually refer to the persons we know?

I seriously wouldn't want to resort to that, but it seems undeniable that this has been already done.

[MagiToxin]

Spoiler for @Kamel:

This all reminds me of the game Glass Rose, where the REAL fourth son comes back and murders all siblings including the fake one. Perhaps our Battler's sin is taking Mohitori-no-Battler's place in the registry and now he's back killing everyone for vengeance? Heh, highly doubtful given Ryukishi07's questionable state of mind

[BanditKing]

Spoiler for Battler Sin:

We know the sin is not him leaving his Ushiromiya name but could it be the name he takes up after?I mean if hes not Asumu's son taking her mother's last name could damage his real mother alot but then again it wouldn't be something to kill the whole Ushiromiya family for, would it?

[Alaya]

Spoiler for Some Theories:

Kanon is very suspicious for me too. And I think there's a way that "someone" can die without actually dying.

If it possible that a name can be inherited, then I think it also that the name can be killed or died (like giving up using that name). If we consider the moment "Kanon" stop being or considering himself "Kanon", then can we say he is dead as "Kanon" and reborn as someone else?

He could then assume identity of Beatrice (as Beatrice also has many meaning throughout the game) and kill everyone else.

[Proto]

I'm pretty sure the Grimoire itself mentions how the stakes attacked her family. Ange also knowingly acknowledged that, check back during the scene where she was late for curfew in her academy.

Sorry, I will be more specific. What she will never know was the cruelty they displayed while performing those acts, that was beyond what was needed and unnecessary. (eg, she knows that they killed their family, but not that they made them suffer as much as possible while they were at it). Add to that that the events on the meta world probably weren't documented there either. Hence why she could 'easily' just dismiss what they did as orders they received that couldn't be disobeyed. For all she knows they performed it with sad faces and saying sorry all the while

[Renall]

I wouldn't put too much stock in "soandso was dead and replaced by an impostor and when I say that name in red I'm not referring to the person posing as them." It's possible, but it's bad writing, so I'm going to hope that it isn't the case and that everyone is who they appear to be. Except one anyway.

Regarding Battler in episode 4, let's look at what happened from Battler's own perspective:

Spoiler for What Battler Saw in Ep4:

Battler bumps into someone on the way out of the airport and then heads for Rokkenjima the same as always. That person was apparently ANGE. Okay whatever. Just noting it.

Everything proceeds as normal for the 4th, with Battler and the cousins heading to the guesthouse after dinner sometime before 10pm.

Around 10:20-10:30ish, Gohda and Kumasawa rush into the guesthouse and inform them of a massacre. Battler and George and Gohda work on barricading the guesthouse, when the phone rings. It is (IIRC) Krauss. The call tells them to lock Gohda and Kumasawa in the shed. They go and do so, then come back.

Another phone call. This time it's for George. He leaves. Then Jessica leaves.

Battler remains in the guesthouse with Maria for an indeterminate amount of time (mainly because I forgot the clocks each chapter). Another call, this time from Jessica (I think I have the order right here?). She tells him that she is going to die - and HOW she is going to die - and that George is dead, a fact she shouldn't know.

Battler gets a call from Kyrie in which she says she's about to be killed. She exhorts him to believe, no matter what he might see.

Finally a call from "Beatrice." Battler is to go to the mansion, Maria to the chapel. I believe they split up for the first time here. Battler, now alone, passes through the rose garden and finds George's body. He goes to the shed and sees Gohda and Kumasawa "hanging," though he doesn't know if they're dead yet and the TIPS don't update.

Battler arrives at the mansion - which has been completely locked and shuttered - and meets "Beatrice," although it's raining and she's above him so it's hard to see for certain. There's also a box there with the "of these three" choice. Beatrice is not satisfied with her interrogations of Battler and turns to leave. This is the first living person Battler has seen from the time he parted with Maria, and he does not see this person again alive, whoever she is.

Battler rushes to the chapel and does not find anyone there. However, he finds a bundle of master keys (Whose keys are these? Who left them here?). He returns to the mansion and begins to find the bodies over the next few hours and into the 5th.

Battler finds the six "FT" victims (more on this later) and Maria in the dining room. Krauss is by the back door. Kyrie is in the room on the first floor which she appears to have called him from. Jessica is in her room. Nanjo and Shannon are out by the well (he probably finds them later than the ones in the house).

Eventually Battler gathers some tools and breaks into the shed, where he finds Gohda and Kumasawa dead from gunshots to the forehead and the key still in Gohda's pocket. He tries to break into the well and cannot succeed because of the cover. He never finds Kanon.

Battler continues to tool around until midnight on the 5th/6th. He then goes missing and is apparently never found.

So here's a point of order: Battler doesn't have a frame of reference for any of the deaths. The only reason we assume people died in a given order is because we were shown the magic world scenes that placed them in one. But Battler didn't! The only thing we know is the order in which Battler found the bodies (George first, then whoever was in the dining room, etc.), and slightly more information from red text. So what I gotta ask is... why are we assuming any of this is even remotely correct?

The person blowing heads apart doesn't care about stealth, procedure, or the ritual. They started killing at around 10:20ish (possibly anyway), they took hostages alive (or pretended to), they used extensive telephone calls (previous killers wanted it to appear to be a witch, or just didn't want to be caught at all) which established at least when someone was probably still alive, they (or someone) appeared physically before Battler and didn't try to kill him, and they made almost no effort to create a closed room situation (the only closed room is the shed, which wasn't done by the same method and suggests another person did it). They seem to have cared nothing for the ritual at all. So why would they only kill six people at the conference? Who says they did that? Who says those people in the dining room died first?

Who are you going to believe? Gohda and Kumasawa, who somehow escaped what they claim was a brutal and unbelievable murder? Krauss and Kyrie, who claimed to be on the phone with Kinzo of all people (an old man with three months to live, supposedly) threatening their lives? Jessica, who knew George was dead when she wasn't supposed to? A random woman calling out of nowhere?

Who shuttered the house so thoroughly and locked it? Why? When did Maria die? How did Maria die? Why was Maria granted a compassionate death (I should note that if the face-smasher is the same person as from episode 1, Maria seems to trust them*)? Why was a set of keys left for Battler, or was it for Battler? Why were Nanjo and Shannon out at a well with a seal on it that is apparently more than just a rush job? Where is Kanon? Why did the staker, who is so meticulous usually, completely halfass his or her work here? And where did "Beatrice" run off to and why did she die? And did any of the order of killings presented in the magic world version of events happen like that at all?

Spoiler for * on Maria in ep4:

Maria trusts the person who did the Ninth Twilight killings in ep1 and apparently these killings in ep4.

Is this person appearing to her as "Beatrice?"

Is this Beatrice aware of the witches' alliance which prevents her from directly harming Maria? Obviously it's not something she's obligated to follow, but she might do it just out of compassion for Maria.

Maria was apparently poisoned without a struggle and posed peacefully and respectfully. Did "Beatrice" give Maria poison and have her take it voluntarily, rather than try to kill her directly, to respect the "alliance" they had? Does this suggest the person responsible for that is the one who writes in Maria's diary, the message bottles, and the return-to-sender letters?

[Alaya]

Spoiler for Maria's Death:

It is possible that Maria committed suicide. There's still no red truth (as far as I remember) states against this.

Why? If Maria is really given a test with three choices similar to what were given to George and Jessica, I believe it would be Rosa name on it.

Will she kill Rosa (not the one who she believe is possed by the black witch but here real kind mother). I would say she would not kill her mother. And I don't think she will select everyone else too.

I think that Maria would select herself right away when asked, without hestitaion. Why? Because she believes that in the end, she will be revived and brought to the Golden Land. She's strongly believe in that so she would not consider her death as a permanent death.

[Jan-Poo]

About your facts reconstruction, Renal, I think Jessica left first, then George. At least that's what I remember. And Maria left a lot before Battler, because Battler was still talking at the phone when she left.

You also miss a telephone call, when they just tell the children to barricade themselves in the guesthouse. Only later they tell them to lock Gohda and Kumasawa.

Imho Gohda and Kumasawa are very suspicious in this episode. The people that speak on the phone could be fake or could be forced to do so. But those two aren't. The fact that they accept to be closed in the shed is also suspicious. Imho they are accomplices and the order to shut them was only done so they could freely move after their role in the guesthouse ended.

The third accomplice must have got the shed's key from Gohda and then opened the door for them. It is not clear how the closed room was created though, but there's a lot of usual things that haven't been stated in red about this closed room.

Episode4 overall make me think there is a huge conspirancy performed by the whole servants staff. Kanon was probably the last person to die (if he really exist).

At this point I'm assuming that a natural disaster happens after any game killing off whichever survives after the killings, probably a volcanic phenomena of some sort. That is Beatrice (the Volcano) awakes, no one will be left alive, and then the witch (the volcano) goes back to sleep.

A tragic coincidence so to speak. A natural disaster happens soon after a fierce series of murders.

This would explain the last riddle of ep4, why noone (except Eva) survives, and why the "umineko" aren't around. Also the fall of the torii (that happened in the summer of the same year) could have happened because of a geyser eruption or a tremor that signaled the incoming of a greater catastrophe.

[Ikth7]

Originally Posted by Squirrellord

Spoiler:

-Maria: Creates Sakutaro and the Siesta Sisters (speculation on the second part)

Spoiler for My response:

I'd actually say your speculation is fact. It's 'magical fact' however so I don't know how useful that is. I always thought the rabbit ears were dumb but now I realize they are a big clue to pointing at their origin. 556 is said to be dead because she was killed in a battle with the 'black witch'. If you look at her tips section it says she played the trumpet. Maria's rabbit that Rosa 'the black witch' smashed played trumpet and in total there were 4 rabbits that were a part of the band. Also, back in episode 3, when everyone is chilling out in the Golden Land, 45 and 410 are following Maria around like they already know her very well. This also raises an interesting question. There were a hell of a lot more members of the band, it's just that Maria only seemed to carry the rabbits around. So how many more Siesta like demons are still to be shown?

Spoiler for Maria's test:

The fact that Maria made the Siesta Sisters makes for an extremely comical scenario during Kinzo's test of Maria. He said he was very impressed by her but never says why. What if Kinzo had tried to order the Siesta Sister to kill Maria at some point and Maria simply mocked him as an inferior summoner for conjuring demons whose origins he didn't understand, then using thier true names (The ones she called them by instead of the numbers) she calls them to her side leaving Kinzo with no followers. Furthermore if Kinzo didn't know about the alliance Maria made with Beatrice she might have even summoned the Seven Sisters of Purgatory on him. Why Maria would have ended up dead in a scenario like this I don't know, but it sure would be funny to see the look on his face.

If anyone remembers the chapter that Maria calls the rabbits in the forest band by name, or can remember the names offhand, I would love to know what they are because I can't remember.

[Squirrellord]

Various responses~
I've always been suspicious of Gohda, from the very first game. He's been working with the family for the shortest amount of time (2 years). I also think he's the one who picked Maria's flower, but that has little to do with suspecting him >_>;... Anyway, how do we know he's "Gohda"? Kanon, and Shannon came from the same orphanage, which is run by Kinzo, so they were hand picked by a trusted official. Genji had served Kinzo for decades, same with Kumasawa. Gohda, however, could be some assassin/conspirator who is using the name "Gohda Toshirou", of a real cook, to get into the Ushiromiya family. Any time "Gohda has been killed" is said in Red, the real Gohda Toshirou is dead, but not the fake. It was also his body used in the first game first night, whose identity would be confirmed by Beatrice in Red as Gohda Toshirou. Dead bodies do not count as people on the island. Thus, "Gohda dies", and leaves a corpse, but it is never the one we know. In the 3rd game, it is this Gohda who murders Nanjo. In the 4th game, Gohda murdered Kumasawa in the shed, and only made it appear that he himself was dead as well.

I personally think that Maria would have picked "let everyone else die", since she'd want to be together with her mother forever. Then again, since Rosa was already dead, we don't know if she even got the same test... Battler's test was different, slightly, because he didn't have anybody to pick (though, I'm sure "Ange" would show up if the same test was asked in later games)

[Jan-Poo]

at ikth7. The parallelism between the siestas and Maria's bunnies is too evident to be dismissed. However I still believe that the siestas represent guns as well as the seven sisters represent the stakes. it still unclear why guns would be associated with maria's bunnies, but supposing the real culprit (Beatrice) is Maria's friend. Then maybe Beatrice borrowed Maria's power to give "life" from zero to create the entities known as siesta sisters.
It's fantasy isn't it? for the stakes Beatrice only had to read a demonology book, for the guns she asked Maria to imagine the names and personality of such "furnitures". Well this is just a guess.

@squirrellord In truth after reading episode1 I was pretty sure Gohda was the culprit. Ha ha I guess he really is suspicious. However right now I'm suspecting practically all the servants.

I don't know if the parallelism between fantasy and reality works, but let's suppose it is.

Ronove is Genji
Gohda is Goat Man
Kumasawa is Virgilia
Gaap is Shannon

The seven sisters are the stakes
The siestas are the guns

Certainly Kumasawa and Genji are no murderers however that also goes for the fantasy, they don't really kill anyone. So in the real world they are accomplices.

I'm still not sure about Nanjo. However the mastermind (Beatrice) must have used them all for something, promising them money in return. That is probably the reason behind those mysterious letters. Yet it is not clear why the name of their sons was used. Maybe because they thought the sons after receiving those letter would automatically give them to the parents since their names were stated as the receivers. They couldn't imagine they would die... still this is a very roundabout method...

Who the hell is this fake Beatrice who befriended Maria and taught her magic? Who could disguise herself (himself?) so to looks exactly as the woman in the portrait? Who would remember and have at heart Battler's sin even thought she isn't related to it? Who would posses such amount of money? Who would go that far to make everyone believe in the witch's existence, at the point to send messages in bottles thus creating a legend and various witch hunters over the world?

[fourtwenty]

So one theory is Ange saw a Sakutaro doll or something in the futon store, but did Beatrice ever say that the one Rosa made was the only one in red? And I think it's kind of strange that Juuza or the boat captain didn't notice, especially Juuza. I thought he knew about Sakutaro? Or did she keep everything in the diary a secret?

Is there any lyrics for the song "Happy Maria!"? Such a fitting song for Beato.

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

However the painting in the main hall was only placed there 2 years before, so it is very unlikely there is a secret door behind that particular painting.

Doesn't mean there can't be something written on the back of the portrait, or even something taped there.

Keys, a password, all kinds of stuff can be placed on the back of a portrait, without it having to be a secret door. In fact, it's possible that the Enoura theory yields a partial solution, with the next part of the puzzle stuck behind the portrait in some form or another.

[Squirrellord]

Originally Posted by fourtwenty

Is there any lyrics for the song "Happy Maria!"? Such a fitting song for Beato.

http://umineco.info/?cmd=read&page=H...=happy%20maria

Nothing official, and multiple different ideas. Just read them as you listen to the song, and see what fits best

[Tjfarmer]

Just want to point out a few theories and stuff I have, but first off a response to Squirrellords Kanon theory...

Spoiler for Kanon:

That would actually make a lot of sense if Jessica made Kanon up. I was thinking, and Kanon's body goes missing if he dies AFTER Jessica he goes missing, because when Jessica died, Kanon disappears, because he no longer exists. When Kanon dies before Jessica, the body is found, because Jessica still believes he exists..... its a stretch but I don't think its a coincidence Kanon's body goes missing when he dies after jessica.

And heres my far-stretch theory.

Spoiler for theory:

OKAY, so it seems to be common that people believe, Virgillia = Kumasawa, Ronove = Genji, and some people like to believe Gaap = Jessica. They are all furniture of Beatrice (is Gaap one? Don't think it was ever said) so that makes me believe that Beatrice = Killer (well duh) and that Kuma, Genji, and Jessica are 'Beatrices' accomplices.

So lets say, ep 1. Kuma, Genji, or Jessica, 'Beatrice' or all 4 (or any variation among those people) killed the people of 1st twilight. And then one of them went on to kill Eva and Hideyoshi. But one of them killed Kanon (or Jessica's thought of Kanon, killing him) so if Genji and Kuma are accomplices, one of them might of done that. So when they were sent out of Kinzo's study, one of them, lets say Kuma killed Genji (lets suppose he was one that 'killed' kanon), and had to kill Nanjo as well. Why not Maria? if Kuma = Virgillia, Kuma is the person who taught Beatrice, and since Beatrice and Maria have close relationship she spared her. Still tweaking theory, but then 'Beatrice' killed Natsuhi, George, Jessica, Battler, and Maria.

If Kuma is teacher of 'Beatrice' then she would have had plenty of time to teach a number of people in Ushiromiya family to be 'Beatrice' due to her long time working there. Whoever this Beatrice is could be a handful of people..... she could have even trained multiple 'Beatrices'

I don't know what I'm thinking exactly..... everything will probably be disproven in a matter of posts anyway :P