Darker Than Black - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Shibataea]

Originally Posted by hei

That's the biggest problem of the S2. Suou is too relevant to the story! At this rate, the ending of the show will be like this: a fangirl saved the world (or Hei).

Oh God. Exactly. Exactly.

I couldn't put my finger on it before. I didn't like Suou, but I couldn't find an actual reason to dislike her; she wasn't a bad protagonist by any means, she wasn't incredibly whiny, certainly realistic enough to be the average thirteen-year-old - but that is it.

The story focuses way too much on her. S1 did this, of course, with Hei, but in a far less obvious manner. His development was more subtle. But with Suou, it's... everyone knows her, everyone talks about her, everyone thinks about her. Reminds me far too much of a bad OC in a fanfic.

I won't say she's a Sue, because she's not. Suou's a likable character, but she falls into the deathtrap of bad shoujo manga: EVERYONE KNOWS THE PROTAGONIST. I'm glad she's the protagonist and I'm really interested in her story, but... she needs to take a backseat. Seriously.

It's like being forcefed cake. Cake is great and all, but there's only so much I can take.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Shibataea

.
I won't say she's a Sue, because she's not. Suou's a likable character, but she falls into the deathtrap of bad shoujo manga: EVERYONE KNOWS THE PROTAGONIST. I'm glad she's the protagonist and I'm really interested in her story, but... she needs to take a backseat. Seriously.

Actually now we don't know a lot about her that's prob why we talk about her. The rug just got pulled from under our feets so to speak in a good way. That poor girl would have had a massive identity crisis if Hei hadn't accepted her. We still don't know the purpose of her creation. Can't expect generiosity out of Shion imo.

And since she is central to S2. Taking a backseat prob wouldn't be a good thing.

They are cooking in the next episode. So while Hei is acting domestic maybe Suou will be taking the backseat to Genma.

This ep. we learned that Youko was most likely also a lesbian and prob in love with Hazuki. So 2 characters had development before 1 kicked the bucket.

[Reckoner]

I remember people telling me that a love interest between Suou and Hei was not possible. This episode sure proved them wrong (Even if it is just one way).

Not that Hei is ever going to love Suou like that... Anyhow, there better be a season 3 because at this rate, none of the questions are going to answered like the director told us this season would. So I can only hypothesize that more will be made.

Lastly, I am still shocked at the way Hei went at Misaki. He really wasn't hesitating to harm her.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Shibataea

I won't say she's a Sue, because she's not. Suou's a likable character, but she falls into the deathtrap of bad shoujo manga: EVERYONE KNOWS THE PROTAGONIST. I'm glad she's the protagonist and I'm really interested in her story, but... she needs to take a backseat. Seriously.

Huh?

We knew Setsuna F. Seiei of Gundam 00 was the protagonist.

We knew Vash the Stampede of Trigun was the protagonist.

We knew Kenshin Himura of Rurouni Kenshin was the protagonist.

So what the heck does that have to do with shoujo manga?

If by "needs to take a backseat" you mean she gets too much focus.....Hei gets plenty of focus too. What do you think the whole hobo-Hei thing has been about? And he's easily as important to the story as Suou, and a bunch of others come in close second. The whole plot is obviously connected with what happened with him and Yin in the two-year time gap.
Then we just learned a big part of Hazuki's backstory, especially for a sub-antagonist.
And to top it off, this is a 12-episode series. They don't have time to give us the lifestory of all these obviously not-so-important characters.

[Intranetusa]

Originally Posted by KaneDragon

Resonance Cascade. Hei is the new Gordon Freeman.



I rest my case.

Who's the G-Man?

The right man in the wrong place can make a worrrrrrrrld of a diffffferenceeeee....

[Poetic Justice]

Originally Posted by Shibataea

Oh God. Exactly. Exactly.

I couldn't put my finger on it before. I didn't like Suou, but I couldn't find an actual reason to dislike her; she wasn't a bad protagonist by any means, she wasn't incredibly whiny, certainly realistic enough to be the average thirteen-year-old - but that is it.

The story focuses way too much on her. S1 did this, of course, with Hei, but in a far less obvious manner. His development was more subtle. But with Suou, it's... everyone knows her, everyone talks about her, everyone thinks about her. Reminds me far too much of a bad OC in a fanfic.

I won't say she's a Sue, because she's not. Suou's a likable character, but she falls into the deathtrap of bad shoujo manga: EVERYONE KNOWS THE PROTAGONIST. I'm glad she's the protagonist and I'm really interested in her story, but... she needs to take a backseat. Seriously.

It's like being forcefed cake. Cake is great and all, but there's only so much I can take.

Pretty Much.

What season one accomplished in terms of character growth, getting the audience to be emotionally attached to the characters in a manner that was not cheap or forceful, was where it's ultimate success and brilliance lay. Yet now season 2 has been like a step back on so many fronts.

From the pacing and characterization.

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by hei

So, according to your definition, Pokemon must be full of loli and shota characters, right? By the way, have you checked Yin's age in S1? I always thought she is small and silent but quite mature. Anyway, good to hear Maki's name. Actually, episode 10 of S2 reminded me of Maki who was an Amber fanboy in S1.

Loli is never associated with age. It is a body type thing. Next thing you'd tell me that Evangeline from Negima isn't loli because she's 500 years old. And what does Pokemon even have to do with anything. If they look young, have the body type, then they are loli, your perceptions be damned.

Isn't it too childish to use the word of "hate" in this case? Do you think people are critical of something because they hate it? If you think so, I have just one word to say, "grow up". Anyway, "compare" sounds better than "gold standard", I think.

So you want me to water it down into "dislike"? Haters gonna hate and that's all I have to say about that. Grow up? I'm not the guy who's being prissy about a little girl main lead and complaining about s2 not being "Darker than Black" like you had any inkling what it really is when you deny the fact that s2 is just like an expanded s1 2 episode arc.

Still, you're putting s1 on a pedestal when talking about s2. That is something that cannot be denied.

Did I mention moe and fangirl in S1? No. Did I talk about your personal taste? No.

I'm talking about your personal taste. And I mentioned the moe and fangirls in s1. They should be worse than lolis and shotas if the latter two are what you hate, erm, DISLIKE in s2.

Just know that everything you've ever said is only your personal taste. That is all. If you're going to be critical of the show, at least keep some objectivity.

AT LEAST the recent posters have the B*LLS to admit that they just plain hate Suou taking the spotlight.

[Shibataea]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Huh?

We knew Setsuna F. Seiei of Gundam 00 was the protagonist.

We knew Vash the Stampede of Trigun was the protagonist.

We knew Kenshin Himura of Rurouni Kenshin was the protagonist.

So what the heck does that have to do with shoujo manga?

If by "needs to take a backseat" you mean she gets too much focus.....Hei gets plenty of focus too. What do you think the whole hobo-Hei thing has been about? And he's easily as important to the story as Suou, and a bunch of others come in close second. The whole plot is obviously connected with what happened with him and Yin in the two-year time gap.
Then we just learned a big part of Hazuki's backstory, especially for a sub-antagonist.
And to top it off, this is a 12-episode series. They don't have time to give us the lifestory of all these obviously not-so-important characters.

Er, not what I meant...

I don't mean that we as viewers know that she's the protagonist (obviously that's going to happen), I mean that everything about the story revolves around her. And to be specific, I don't mean "everything" literally; I just mean that she gets tied into things even if it's not necessary.

Shoujo manga was the wrong thing to bring up here, but what I mean to say is that, like typical protagonists of that horrid genre, Suou gets all the attention.

Yes, I do think she gets too much focus. She gets so much focus I barely notice Hei.

Obviously, since it's a twelve-episode series, there isn't much room for subplot with the other characters. Despite this, the writers seem to be forcing it in anyway, in a cheap rushed manner. About the most complicated subplot so far was the thing with Norio and his mother, which - surprise! involved Norio thinking that Suou had caused his mother's death. Did it do anything to the plot? Not really, it just gave Suou a sort-of reason to dislike Yin, and we got to see more of Suou's development as a Contractor. If this had been taken out, and Suou's development been taken care of another way, there would have been room for development with the other characters.

I mean, we barely know anything about Section 3. I don't think we need to know their life stories, but something would be nice. The development with Hazuki was completely out of left field and her entire backstory was summed up in, what, three minutes? We know nothing about Youko - sure, she might have been in love with Hazuki, but not much beyond that. And Genma is just a mystery in a puzzle in a riddle in... metal armor.

I'm going to have to disagree with you that the "obviously not-so-important characters" - I think you mean Section 3 here - are, in fact, not-so-important. Do we have any other recurring antagonists? Not really. Can we have a plot without antagonists? Not really. Madame Oreille and Shion have definitely been portrayed in a pretty antagonistic light, and one of them is probably the big bad of the story, but are they focused on? Not really.

There are the Contractors that appear for two episodes and get offed, but they're irrelevant to the plot and don't make good subplots.

Pretty sure I got off-topic somewhere, but basically, the pacing is just so chaotic as to be perplexing. Our plot is moving like a one-legged penguin on land and our subplots keep involving characters that are barely relevant to the story, but the camera is always on Suou.

[Haladflire65]

I have to agree with Shibataea. The only thing I'm gonna say is that I was extremely disappointed when I started the second season and found out that Hei was no longer the only main protagonist, Suou having entered the picture. I think it's partly why the second season feels so different from the first, not in a very good way... Suou is a decent character but it really doesn't feel like DTB any more when it's not Hei in the spotlight. It's just my opinion. I just have a thing against teenage female main characters.

[Ansalem]

Originally Posted by Haladflire65

I have to agree with Shibataea. The only thing I'm gonna say is that I was extremely disappointed when I started the second season and found out that Hei was no longer the only main protagonist, Suou having entered the picture. I think it's partly why the second season feels so different from the first, not in a very good way... Suou is a decent character but it really doesn't feel like DTB any more when it's not Hei in the spotlight. It's just my opinion. I just have a thing against teenage female main characters.

I feel like a lot of people think like this. However, I think it partially nostalgia glasses. In DtB, Hei may have been the recurring character with the most screen time, but he certainly wasn't a normal protagonist. For most of the show, each episode was about one of a group of protagonists, and perhaps featured a particular member of the group. There were the police, the detectives, the syndicate, and an array of one- or two-time appearance characters. Many shows were centered around someone other than Hei, with him barely making an appearance in the first of the two episode sets. Usually he had infiltrated his way to whatever scenario the other characters were in, doing some part-time job, and then would generally do something bad ass in part two. There were also some of these stories, naturally, where Hei was the particular character the story was based around. When the show got closer to the end, Hei became more central, since the major plot line involved him and was slowly developed over the run of the series. So I never felt like DtB2 was that far away from the first season. Instead of stories about multiple different people over two-episode sets with Hei being present, it instead concentrates the time devoted to those stories to Suou, in a series long story, with Hei again being around. Hei is as present in DtB2 as he is in the first season, and he still is involved in a major plot line developed in the background as the show advanced, and again looks like it will be brought to the forefront in these final episodes, along with Suou's story.

[Haladflire65]

Originally Posted by Ansalem

I feel like a lot of people think like this. However, I thinks it partially nostalgia glasses. In DtB, Hei may have been the recurring character with the most screen time, but he certainly wasn't a normal protagonist. For most of the show, each episode was about one of a group of protagonists, and perhaps featured a particular member of the group. There were the police, the detectives, the syndicate, and an array of one- or two-time appearance characters. Many shows were centered around someone other than Hei, with him barely making an appearance in the first of the two episode sets. Usually he had infiltrated his way to whatever scenario the other characters were in, doing some part-time job, and then would generally do something bad ass in part two. There were also some of these stories, naturally, where Hei was the particular character the story was based around. When the show got closer to the end, Hei became more central, since the major plot line involved him and was slowly developed over the run of the series. So I never felt like DtB2 was that far away from the first season. Instead of stories about multiple different people over two-episode sets with Hei being present, it instead concentrates the time devoted to those stories to Suou, in a series long story, with Hei again being around. Hei is as present in DtB2 as he is in the first season, and he still is involved in a major plot line developed in the background as the show advanced, and again looks like it will be brought to the forefront in these final episodes, along with Suou's story.

Well, in the first season, Hei was still the main character even if he was in the background. The 'protagonists' for each of the two-episode arcs didn't last, other than Misaki's team, Amber, some of the Contractors, etc. But in S2, Suou's constantly in the center, every single episode so far focusing on her. I don't really like the 'mentor and bodyguard' role that Hei took on for Suou, it's already out of the spotlight. As you said, the second season focuses on Suou with Hei hanging around, which is what I dislike. The first season had a host of smaller characters for each arc, but the second is basically Suou through the whole thing. I tend to hate it when a magical teenage girl takes over the storyline of animes. Suou's not that bad, but I still prefer the setup of S1.

[Guardian Enzo]

I think the tone of the posts for this show is about as negative as any I've ever seen. It's astonishing, given how much traffic it generates here and how popular it seems to be. Given the general tenor of this board, you'd think it was the most hated anime of 2009.

[Shibataea]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I think the tone of the posts for this show is about as negative as any I've ever seen. It's astonishing, given how much traffic it generates here and how popular it seems to be. Given the general tenor of this board, you'd think it was the most hated anime of 2009.

Funnily enough, I live for this anime, but my posts sound like HATE RANT RANT RANT...

[Haladflire65]

I'm not hating the anime or anything, but there's just things that I'd like to see changed in it, that's all. It's pretty enjoyable, to be honest; I'm just saying that I liked the 1st season more.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I think the tone of the posts for this show is about as negative as any I've ever seen. It's astonishing, given how much traffic it generates here and how popular it seems to be. Given the general tenor of this board, you'd think it was the most hated anime of 2009.

That's how it feels sometimes. Some posts seem pretty venomous, as you say. But others are positive or balanced. Overall, I'm not sure the tone is so negative. Some people (like me) prefer this season to season one. Others are understandably frustrated that the show is not a closer continuation of the first series. Most second series get some negativity. How about Endless Eight, lol?

I'm trying to control myself from posting too many rebuttals, since that probably just makes people angrier. They have a point, even if I don't happen to see things the same way.

[Faerie]

Well, I suppose the problem here is, people were looking forward to more of the same, but instead got something different that had some elements of the old show, but was definitely not as expected.
For one, changing Hei's character so much so suddenly without proper explanation (so far), seems weird for one, and for another alienates the show even more from what many were expecting.
Then the seeming lack of focus, especially the mostly irrelevant Norio- arc, along with the lack of attention to the antagonists and the vast amount of attention Suou gets, this all makes the show a bit messy.
That she is 13 doesn't help either, as many recurring characters/ protagonists of S1 seem to be a lot more mature, and while interesting for a little while, I'm not sure she's good enough a character to make viewers overlook the flaws of the show.
Flaws, that might not have been so noticeable, if it was a show in its own right, but as a second season, it seems to be a bit off...

Which doesn't mean people hate it, I suppose there is just a lot of complaining, because it is not what was expected, and I partially agree with that. I'm not too happy with the way the plot is going, and I'd have liked to know more about for example Tanya or Yoko and Hazuki- there would easily have been time, if they had just ditched the completely irrelevant Norio- arc for example....

[orion]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

Well, I suppose the problem here is, people were looking forward to more of the same, but instead got something different that had some elements of the old show, but was definitely not as expected.
For one, changing Hei's character so much so suddenly without proper explanation (so far), seems weird for one, and for another alienates the show even more from what many were expecting.
Then the seeming lack of focus, especially the mostly irrelevant Norio- arc, along with the lack of attention to the antagonists and the vast amount of attention Suou gets, this all makes the show a bit messy.
That she is 13 doesn't help either, as many recurring characters/ protagonists of S1 seem to be a lot more mature, and while interesting for a little while, I'm not sure she's good enough a character to make viewers overlook the flaws of the show.
Flaws, that might not have been so noticeable, if it was a show in its own right, but as a second season, it seems to be a bit off...

Which doesn't mean people hate it, I suppose there is just a lot of complaining, because it is not what was expected, and I partially agree with that. I'm not too happy with the way the plot is going, and I'd have liked to know more about for example Tanya or Yoko and Hazuki- there would easily have been time, if they had just ditched the completely irrelevant Norio- arc for example....

But the Japanese buyers prob prefer a younger female protag so Suou being 13 yo is helping her for longevity reasons. Even if they time skip 2-3 yrs Suou will still be a sellable character whereas Misaki is getting too old now and in another timeskip Yin will also be too old.

Yoko served her function, to make Hazuki mad at Hei to get a showdown. She's not needed anymore. Hazuki is Hei fodder.

Norio wasn't irrelevant as Suou continues to mention even in ep before Norio how she doesn't know what love is. Well, Norio was in love with her. She got an example. He also said those exact things to her that she said to Hei. Sort of put her in Hei's shoes for a bit and prob got her understanding Hei a bit more.

[Faerie]

Originally Posted by orion

But the Japanese buyers prob prefer a younger female protag so Suou being 13 yo is helping her for longevity reasons. Even if they time skip 2-3 yrs Suou will still be a sellable character whereas Misaki is getting too old now and in another timeskip Yin will also be too old.

Yoko served her function, to make Hazuki mad at Hei to get a showdown. She's not needed anymore. Hazuki is Hei fodder.

Norio wasn't irrelevant as Suou continues to mention even in ep before Norio how she doesn't know what love is. Well, Norio was in love with her. He also said those exact things to her that she said to Hei. Sort of put her in Hei's shoes for a bit and prob got her understanding Hei a bit more.

I know, all I'm saying is that for now, to a show that mostly has a bit older viewers, a 13 yo. maybe isn't as appealing, at least not when a more mature protagonist was expected. (Of course such shows can and do work in this setup, I'm just thinking it maybe wasn't what viewers thought they would be getting)
Why the time- skipping anyway? Like you said, this way they only phase out the cast that many are attached to, and that can or can not work- personally I don't like it when shows change their cast
(Look what it did to House!). Hei is also getting too old.

Well, I also agree about Yoko and Hazuki, but personally I find it more interesting to learn a little more about antagonists, or serious characters, and I'm guessing a few who are having issues with S2 think so too. Norio just wasn't, and he isn't even funny and sort of adorable like Kiko and Gai are. He's just plain weird and quite lame as a character, though I agree, he had some sort of function, but the issue was also already touched upon with Nika, who was arguably a better character.

I'm not saying I don't like S2, just saying what I think is part of the problem many seem to be having.
I'm trying to see it as a bit of a show in its own right, rather than a sequel, as it does not feel like one, due to the big changes...

[orion]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

I know, all I'm saying is that for now, to a show that mostly has a bit older viewers, a 13 yo. maybe isn't as appealing, at least not when a more mature protagonist was expected. (Of course such shows can and do work in this setup, I'm just thinking it maybe wasn't what viewers thought they would be getting)
Why the time- skipping anyway? Like you said, this way they only phase out the cast that many are attached to, and that can or can not work- personally I don't like it when shows change their cast
(Look what it did to House!). Hei is also getting too old.

Now, you're making a big assumption that those Japanese males don't prefer seeing the 13 yo. Both 13 yos (Tanya and Suou) had their fanservice moments. Suou was buck naked. Tanya was basically in a cat suit ala Mrs. Peel from The Avengers.

No Hei is in a different category. As Hei attracts female viewers, the older he gets, the more he attracts. Besides those adult male viewers will relate better with Hei as he's prob their age. Sure, we were having fun with Hobo Hei but that's a sexy cover he's got.

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

Well, I also agree about Yoko and Hazuki, but personally I find it more interesting to learn a little more about antagonists, or serious characters, and I'm guessing a few who are having issues with S2 think so too. Norio just wasn't, and he isn't even funny and sort of adorable like Kiko and Gai are. He's just plain weird and quite lame as a character, though I agree, he had some sort of function, but the issue was also already touched upon with Nika, who was arguably a better character.

I'm not saying I don't like S2, just saying what I think is part of the problem many seem to be having.
I'm trying to see it as a bit of a show in its own right, rather than a sequel, as it does not feel like one, due to the big changes...

Sometimes you have learn by experience. Suou had to experience a one-way love to understand it. Still, she hasn't quite got both concepts yet.

Well, I think that many ignored the promo poster which basically had a 13 yo sniper in the foreground and Hei in the background. The promo trailer was also mostly Suou. Hei gets more time in the OVA to explain how he got to S2.

Ignoring that this is a sequel isn't a good thing imo. You just need to adjust to the new direction that the series is going.

[Zwei]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I think the tone of the posts for this show is about as negative as any I've ever seen. It's astonishing, given how much traffic it generates here and how popular it seems to be. Given the general tenor of this board, you'd think it was the most hated anime of 2009.

The more popular the show is and the more haters it gathers. But yeah, negative feedback is very small for this show in comparison to the positive feedback it gets, so no worries about it. Besides, it's not surprising people keep complaining about S2 not living up to their "expectations" and not having the same "feel" (lol) as S1. You should have seen back when Code Geass R2 was airing.

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

Why the time- skipping anyway? Like you said, this way they only phase out the cast that many are attached to, and that can or can not work- personally I don't like it when shows change their cast
(Look what it did to House!). Hei is also getting too old.

Umm, I can see where you're coming from here. This is mainly the reason why I couldn't enjoy Gundam Seed Destiny. While I hate it when they change the original cast and replace it with others, it didn't bother me one bit here as Hei is still the main protagonist - along with Suou.

And Hei is still in his 20s.