2009-03-06, 20:09 | Link #1 | |||
進む道は武士道のみ
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 36
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Learning Japanese (上級)
First off, I would like to make it very clear that this thread's goal is not to create an elite thread on Japanese to separate the members of this forum by their proficiency level. The goal of this thread is to create an avenue to have the most difficult of Japanese language questions answered. I have 3 very reasonable reasons for starting this thread.
1. Discussions and explanations on higher level Japanese language questions can be lengthy and drawn out, thus clogging up the other Japanese threads and potentially smothering simpler questions. 2. Some members might refrain from posting their questions in the current threads as they might believe that they won't receive an answer due to the difficulty of the question, or that it would be inappropriate to post a question of that difficulty in the other threads. 3. Having a thread for advanced Japanese might attract the highly proficient members who might otherwise ignore the other Japanese language threads for a seeming lack of need for their help. I think these reasons (and some more might come up later) are sufficient enough to warrant this thread. Just because this thread is for advanced Japanese, in no way does this mean that those who are just starting out with the language or those with just an interest in the language should refrain from following this thread. I would; however, appreciate it if no one posts questions that should go in the other Japanese language thread, or the translation thread. Thank you. Now onto the first topic. This is being brought over from the Japanese translation thread and deals with the use of ぬ as a negative verb tense. Quote:
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2009-03-07, 09:41 | Link #2 |
The Owl of Minerva
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Great to see a thread for in-depth discussions on Japanese language. Hope that there is enough interest to sustain it.
Since Ryuou has mentioned Nagi from Kannagi in the previous speech, I am wondering if there is a specific name for her speech pattern. AFAIK Horo from Spice and Wolf specifically uses 花魁言葉 in her speech. Nagi's speech pattern although feels quite similar (old-fasion casual), somehow the two look technically different in a few ways. Or maybe Nagi is simply using an alternate form of 花魁言葉? Grateful if anyone can shed some light on this. ナギ(@ ep1): わらわも取り敢えずは、そちの傍におれば安全のようじゃからの。よろしく頼むぞ。 現代語: 私も取り敢えずは、あなたの側にいれば安全のようだから。よろしく頼むよ。 勝手に花魁言葉へ変換: わっちも取り敢えずは、ぬしの側にいれば安全のようでありんすからの。よろしく頼むよ。 |
2009-03-07, 19:53 | Link #4 | |
進む道は武士道のみ
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 36
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Glad to see some support for this thread.
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And I also just figured out what AFAIK stands for. (I'm behind when it comes to these short hand terms) Yeah the first thing I noticed about Nagi's speech was how it sounded similar to Horo's. Not exactly alike, but close enough to notice. Maybe they're related somehow (the dialect). Unless someone specifically knows, in order to figure out Nagi's dialect I guess we'd have to look for consistent comparisons and differences between the two. I don't remember Nagi using some form of んす to end her verbs. Or くりゃれ (I'm not exactly sure if that's how she said it, I'd have to check my novels. But it's something like that). As these affect a lot of the conjugations for verbs maybe they're more different than similar. But they do sound really similar though, so I don't know. So Horo's dialect comes from 女郎? That's what my dictionary says. That kind of makes me dislike the dialect. Last edited by Ryuou; 2009-03-08 at 19:39. |
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2009-03-07, 20:39 | Link #5 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Most excellent, thanks Ryuou. I may not have much to contribute but I'll certainly lurk and ask the occasional question. I believe I'm going to attempt the JLPT 3 next winter so into the muck I go.
My recollection is that Horo used an Edo period dialect of courtesans (oiran kotoba: flirty, sexy). Nagi's dress and eyebrows were Heian but I never paid close attention to her dialect so I can't comment on any archaic speech she might have used.
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Last edited by Vexx; 2009-03-09 at 23:04. |
2009-03-07, 21:06 | Link #6 |
進む道は武士道のみ
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 36
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You're quite welcome Vexx. But there's no real need to thank me as this thread helps me out as much as anyone else.
Yeah they're definitely both oldern dialects. Bringing up Heian is interesting. Maybe we can compare it to how people were speaking in Mononoke as I believe that was set during the Heian period. But I think some of them were speaking in exaggerated dialects so I don't know how reliable of a comparison it would be. Or better yet, Otogizoushi. And good luck to you on your JLPT studies. In due time I’ll have to start back up on mine as well. |
2009-03-08, 09:56 | Link #7 |
Translator, Producer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Age: 44
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Something interesting that quite rare is the way that Nana and Lulu speak in Shugo Chara!! Doki!... Nana especially has a thick Nagoyan accent.
Osaka-ben and Kansai-ben are not uncommon in anime, but Nagoya-ben is something I've never heard before Shugo Chara. It's actually quite strange sounding, very distinct. Everything ends with a "ya" or an "dagya" or a "gane!" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagoya_dialect Anyway, pretty much the only Nagoya-ben that's ever heard in real life outside of Nagoya is someone proclaiming "Umya!!" after eating some delicious ramen. (It's Nagoya-ben of "Umai!").
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2009-03-09, 22:16 | Link #8 | |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
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There's also an anime called Yattokame Tanteidan (やっとかめ探偵団), about elderly ladies that solve everyday mysteries in Nagoya downtown. Because it takes place in Nagoya, and the entire cast consists of elderly people, pretty much all the dialogs are in Nagoya dialect.
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2009-03-11, 23:56 | Link #9 | |
進む道は武士道のみ
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 36
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Continuing on with the Nagoya-ben bit, is there an easy way to discern between the different ben from that area? It all sounds too similar to me for the most part. Osaka-ben, Kyoto-ben, Nagoya-ben, Kobe-ben...I know there's an overlying ben to the area though.
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General question: does anybody know of good resources to refer to when they have upper-level Japanese grammar (ish) questions? Like a good website or reference book? The next time I head over to the bookstore at Mitsuwa I'm going to try and look for one. All I have is a dictionary and then some textbooks for 初級 and 中級, so I kind of get really stuck on harder stuff. Something navigate-able would be nice. As it's not generating much discussion I guess we'll put the ぬ and Horo/Nagi dialect bit on hold until I (or someone) get some nice comparisons for us to look at. For now I'd like to transition over to a couple questions I have. As I read novels, I take note of all the parts that I can't look up and thus don't understand. As I can't find really anything on them, I don't actually know what level of difficulty they are, but as I have no idea I'll just assumingly put them here. I'll do a few at a time. These are from Ookami to Koushinryou by the way. 1) お暇(ひま)を告(つ)げた 2) すうす思っている (Spelling it out is probably unnecessary right?) If the part is underlined, then that's the part I don't understand. If there's no underline than it's the whole phrase. If you need the context around it just ask and I'll write out the whole sentence. Thanks guys/girls. I look forward to seeing what we can expect from this thread. |
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2009-03-12, 00:12 | Link #10 | |
Translator, Producer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Age: 44
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Good advanced grammar references are hard to find. There are very few that are fully in english (there are plenty in Japanese for Japanese, of course, but those are not that helpful). The most thorough reference is a series of 3 books A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar A Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar and the most recently published A Dictionary of Advanced Japanese Grammar These books are very thorough in what they contain but because there is some overlap over the three books things can be hard to find. Lots of example sentences, though, which is good. However, if you really want the holy grail of grammar references there is only one book. http://www.amazon.com/Reference-Gram...6834648&sr=8-1 This book is old, it is in romaji and romanized in the old style instead of modern hepburn. BUT... It is organized brilliantly and is the most complete book on Japanese grammar ever written. It contains everything. ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING. And don't be fooled by it being 1298 pages: The font size is TINY.
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2009-03-12, 01:18 | Link #11 | ||
進む道は武士道のみ
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 36
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That holy grail one seems interesting though. But the Romaji... |
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2009-03-12, 08:36 | Link #12 | |||
Senior Member
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Ryuou
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まいう~ = 美味すぎ Quote:
Though actually I know what kind of grammar book you’re talking about. I have such a book for French and it’s called “Grammaire du francais contemporain” (i.e. Modern French Grammar book). On through the topics. Quote:
お暇を告げる(おいとまをつげる) means ''to bid farewell''. Something like in ’そろそろおいとましなくては' すうす is more tricky. I don’t know what it is. I only found a reference to a sweets shop - http://gourmet.yahoo.co.jp/0007509249/ I need the context for 'suusu'. Maybe it's a variation of 酢. I have no idea, honestly.
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Last edited by nikorai; 2009-03-12 at 09:12. Reason: more typing |
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2009-03-12, 14:45 | Link #13 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
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More context would nail it down some more, of course. |
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2009-03-12, 16:23 | Link #15 | ||
進む道は武士道のみ
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 36
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For the second one I'm pretty sure that's all that was there, but let me check......haha, guess I was wrong. There was a も behind it which I thought was もう instead of the も going with the と before it to make とも, and the う going with すうす. Hmm...guess this thread may become more for catching my mistakes than anything else. But mystery solved nonetheless. So on to うすうす's definition. My dictionary says this: ①ほのかに。かすかに。 ②ぼんやりとではあるが分るさま。 So "vaguely aware" like nikorai mentioned. I'll be back with more when I have some more time. |
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2009-03-12, 19:26 | Link #16 | ||
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2009-03-14, 23:04 | Link #19 | ||
進む道は武士道のみ
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 36
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Yeah I have the 6th version which I think is the latest one. But then I also have a computer dictionary application that has most of that dictionary in it. So unfortunately I don't use my hard copy very often which makes the money I spent on it sad. But they aren't exactly the same, fortunatley, so I sometimes check the hard copy if I can't find or don't like what I find in the computer one.
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We actually already figured that out, but thanks anyway. |
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2009-03-14, 23:47 | Link #20 | |
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You're all probably familiar, but I'll give a shout-out for smart.fm. Good place to practice vocab as well as pronunciation. |
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japan, language learning |
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