2012-06-25, 19:26 | Link #29321 |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
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Ok because I was wondering about the Erika thing. Thanks for explaining it and yes it sounds ridiculous but at least it doesn't violate Knox. Now I have to go read Renall's. What page is it?
Another thing with him it is all "The red don't agree with my theory well screw the red!" "The Decalogue don't agree with my theory screw the decalouge!" "Author already gave solution to the twilight......screw the author he's a liar!"
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2012-06-25, 19:32 | Link #29322 | |||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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It's in the last two or three pages I think....Anyway, it's very close to the end of the thread so you won't have a difficulty finding it. It'll blow your mind away.
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2012-06-25, 19:39 | Link #29323 | |
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2012-06-25, 20:04 | Link #29324 |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
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Oh my gosh that was so awesome but it fell apart in the end. It is the video you are talking about right? That was perfect I never thought about that everybody was in the cousin's room besides Kinzo and those in the next room over.
I don't think Shannon/Kanon go to school anymore. I think that was just something that Genji used to get Yasu out to socialize but it didn't really work out since we never hear if Yasu ever had any friends at school.
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2012-06-25, 20:12 | Link #29325 | |
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I don't think it was intentional that Ryukishi actually meant to define "everyone else" to mean "everyone not excluded from the location check," or at least that when Erika said "else" she meant "that isn't me." The rational argument is the one Bernkastel makes immediately, that Erika clearly knows her own location. Battler's counter-argument (it's her responsibility to make sure of that) and the notion that she lacks Detective Authority and thus can't know where she is unless she's told do sort of fly in the face of it, but I prefer to think of it as an unclear statement that was clearly intended not to refer to Erika and not to refer to anyone else in the universe. Indeed, nothing really stops a canny witch from declaring that no universe exists except Rokkenjima, since this is a fictional story about a closed-off island. Perhaps nothing exists but empty sea infinitely in all directions around the island?
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2012-06-25, 20:16 | Link #29326 |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Well, they really are nevertheless quite implausible as weapons. A martial artist, especially, wouldn't waste their time trying to fight someone with a letter opener; George would be far more effective fighting bare-handed. And to the forehead? Seriously? That's the single hardest place in a person's body to stab!
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2012-06-25, 20:18 | Link #29327 | |||||||
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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All I remember was the implication from End that one MIGHT stumble upon the entrance near the chapel by mistake, though it would be unlikely. Quote:
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Kanon, though, just doesn't make sense. You can kinda tell, in EP7, when the plot just goes "Kanon? Oh ... yeah, don't think about him." |
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2012-06-25, 20:34 | Link #29328 |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
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I think the reason we don't see anything about Kanon is because it isn't needed to solve the murder. Is it necessary to know about Kanon to solve the mystery no but it does add an extra layer to Yasu's character and obviously Kanon led to Yasu seeing herself as inhuman. So Kanon to me is the physical form of Yasu's self-hatred.
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2012-06-25, 20:46 | Link #29329 | |
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He's underdeveloped to the point that there's no way you couldn't immediately find him suspect if you were an outside observer.
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2012-06-25, 21:42 | Link #29330 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Sure, but if your only source of information about him is a pair of stories that are already discredited, there's not very many places you can take that suspicion, especially if Eva refused to confirm whether he was present or not. With the other suspects, a Witch Hunter could investigate their background and somehow come up with a theory about how and why they would commit a serial murder, so it would be comparatively less productive and fun to push Kanon as the culprit. The Witch Hunters might even think: "This person doesn't exist in reality, so he must have been put in the stories as a distraction. The real culprit is someone else."
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2012-06-25, 21:55 | Link #29331 | |
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This is, I think, kind of an issue with the writing. It's manipulation of information to the audience that the in-universe audience isn't dealing with. They would know this, but we're misled into assuming Kanon was some kind of real person because no suspicion is raised about him in non-1986 segments that reasonably should be. Even if we're supposed to be following along from the perspective of Battler/Toya somehow, and he doesn't know this for whatever reason, he could find it out very easily. So him not doing so is just kind of odd. It's not some fatal flaw or anything, but it's kind of sloppy.
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2012-06-26, 00:40 | Link #29332 | |
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Especially if we start getting into issues in the sphere of Erika and her meta-trolling. |
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2012-06-26, 02:03 | Link #29333 | ||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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As for the implied service door: Quote:
Well you could argue that it's the same door... anyway the important part is that you don't need to move the golden letters everytime to go to the underground. Quote:
There's an interesting bit in EP8 where the goats claim that Kanon doesn't exist. Jessica "defeats" them by saying that there are people who saw Kanon at the school's culture festival. This tells us that in prime Jessica actually made Yasu pose as her boyfriend. But this also tells us that if this is the best she could do to prove Kanon's existence, then I guess there really isn't anything else. There must be an official list of the victims who went missing in the Rokkenjima Incident, and obviously neither "Shannon" nor "Kanon" are in it. But there should be the name of the young maid who attended school for years in Niijima (probably Sayo Yasuda), and that people can testify was named Shannon. Kawabata for example, there's just no way he doesn't know her. He supposedly ferried her back and forth from Rokkenjima to Niijima and viceversa for years on an almost daily basis. The complete lack of interest in Shannon, Kanon and Yasu from Ange's part in 1998 is absolutely appaling and can only be explained by narrative manipulation. At any rate it is almost inevitable to conclude that for everyone from outside the catbox Kanon is someone that isn't supposed to exist in those stories. Quote:
But what really bothers me about this is that it defies the only justification (which is still weak imo) for not telling the readers what's going on: "In the story people will never know what happened, so you won't either, it's a catbox". But there's a lot of stuff, including this important bit, that is actually common knowledge in prime and Ryuukishi still doesn't explain it years after the end of the story. In others words he makes a mystery out of something that in the story itself isn't a mystery at all.
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2012-06-26, 05:47 | Link #29334 | |
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Age: 32
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------ I'm not sure if someone had already said this during the discussions about Yasu's gender, but - I was wondering, why is it even a mystery? Doesn't she HAVE to be a girl obviously? After all, Genji hid the fact she's alive from Kinzo because he thought Kinzo might treat Yasu as Beatrice and make his 'incest sin' again... If Yasu was a boy, that fear wouldn't be relevant. (unless Kinzo is bisexual and we didn't know.. lol) which means she has to be a girl, otherwise Genji would let Kinzo know about his child being alive. Then why do people think there's still a chance Yasu might be a male?
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2012-06-26, 08:22 | Link #29335 |
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Because it's ambiguous. If she were unambiguously female, there's no reason not to just say so. Same is true if she were unambiguously male, of course. We just don't know, and apparently not knowing is somehow important to Yasu's self-image problems.
I think the issue may well be that Yasu doesn't know and hadn't gotten a straight answer from Genji or Nanjo (at least, perhaps, before the scene referenced in the "guts sequence"). And perhaps Battler and Ange don't know either. So the self-image is ambiguous, and we'll never really know. But it's apparently not 100% expected; either Yasu is a maimed male or female, or transgendered, or not the same sex as the gender she was raised, or uncomfortable with whatever body she does have, or is malformed or hermaphroditic or something uncommon. Something along those lines. Something isn't clicking between the way Yasu understands her own body and what she ideally thinks her body should be like. It's possible there's nothing wrong and she's paranoid and lies and misdirection have messed with her head. But more likely she has some legitimate problem with her self-image that she feels renders her body incapable of love. The ambiguity suggests it relates to her gender image, or to her biological sex conflicting with that somehow, or to something being done to her that changed either her gender self-image or her physical sex, without her consent or approval or apparently even knowledge. Also let's not put past Kinzo anything regardless of the sex of his supposed child (if indeed Yasu even is that child, if that child even existed). Genji thinks he's insane enough to do something, maybe he just thinks he's insane to the point that the appearance and equipment of the child don't matter. Besides, Genji has other legitimate reasons to hide such a child if one exists.
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2012-06-26, 09:13 | Link #29337 | |
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You wouldn't want to announce "By the way, we saved your secret brother/sister's life, and incidentally he/she owns Kinzo's gold" back in the late 60s. Because the first question on the siblings' minds would be "Wait, what brother/sister?" followed immediately by "Wait, what gold?" I can't imagine Yasu/Lion would've had a very good life without some protection of that sort. We actually see that in ep7, where Lion's been passed off as Krauss and Natsuhi's first child. Krauss goes along with it because he gets all the perks from it: His family becomes the main branch as far as the law and society knows (which is prestigious), his firstborn becomes the head of the family (again, prestigious), and he gets to manage the finances of the group until Lion is of age (which means he has control of the finances and thus control over the family). It's a pretty damn good deal for Krauss in that situation, so it's incentive to go along with the Lion thing even if he knows it's not really his child. Nobody else has to know that, so why not go with it? As far as the rest of the world sees it, he's raised a brilliant child who is competent and likeable; he has every incentive to protect that image to make himself look good and he and Natsuhi look like perfect parents. Now imagine Lion's existence without that safety net. It would not be entirely pleasant for him/her, as all the parents would be trying to screw him/her over financially and there'd be little to be done about it.
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2012-06-26, 09:52 | Link #29338 |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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I think it would have been much better had Genji taken a different tactic. If he had adopted Yasu himself (from Fukuin, after a suitable gap) or claimed she was his daughter, she would probably not have had to work as a servant from such a terribly young age, and would still have been able to spend time on the island or perhaps live there. Genji's the head servant and Kinzo's old friend, and Kinzo would probably allow him to have his child visit/live on the island if he requested it. Even if Yasu did start to work as a servant some of the time while still a little kid, she would have had some better protection from being Genji's child. And she would have had a parent of her own.
Of course, that would only have worked if Genji was willing to take on a role as a parent, which I doubt he was. The man's got some of the skimpiest characterisation in the whole series. |
2012-06-26, 10:37 | Link #29340 |
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The only thing we ever get from Genji is the fact that he seems to be the only character that actually goes insane. If I'm remembering right Ryukishi said that the gold butterflies are more just showing that someone has gone insane such as the cousins do in Ep 1 because as I recall the gold butterflies appeared before 12:00 AM after Natsuhi was killed.
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