[Manga] Do you believe Kakashi's words?

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by BlackShinobi07

So Naruto really cant surpass Sasuke but hell always keep trying? What a waist of time energy. He just open a ramen restuarant with his clones as the cheffs and workers. I bet hed be really successful at that.

He'll obviously never beat Sasuke or anyone for else at that power level by just not giving up. It didnt hepl Jiraiya when he faced Pein.

He can very much do so and he will eventually. In fact we know he already surpassed almost all ninja in the world since Kakashi admitted Naruto had passed him.
Rock Lee was the untalented kid who had nothing but hardwork to go by, Naruto however is the Jinchuuriki hosting the most powerful demon known to men, son of the previous Hokage and greatest hero of Konoha and the "destiny child" fated to bring peace to the world.

[BlackShinobi07]

Originally Posted by Hunter

He can very much do so and he will eventually. In fact we know he already surpassed almost all ninja in the world since Kakashi admitted Naruto had passed him.
Rock Lee was the untalented kid who had nothing but hardwork to go by, Naruto however is the Jinchuuriki hosting the most powerful demon known to men, son of the previous Hokage and greatest hero of Konoha and the "destiny child" fated to bring peace to the world.

I think everyone agrees Naruto being stronger than Kakashi is total BS.

I dont think he will beat Sasuke though. And even if he does, like all his previous matches, it will be by luck, the fox, or, plot no-jutsu(this will be especially true is Sasuke does beat Itachi and Naruto then goes on to beat Sasuke).

Just look how well hes doing agianst Madara right now. Kishi really does a good job of making the potential savior of the world look pathetically weak.

[Ryuujin]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Rock Lee was the untalented kid who had nothing but hardwork to go by, Naruto however is the Jinchuuriki hosting the most powerful demon known to men, son of the previous Hokage and greatest hero of Konoha and the "destiny child" fated to bring peace to the world.

Though being a jinchuriki is more hindrance than help these days (only Naruto's plot armor protects him from jobbing to Akatsuki like all the others...).

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by Hunter

He can very much do so and he will eventually. In fact we know he already surpassed almost all ninja in the world since Kakashi admitted Naruto had passed him.

-Not that I disagree Hunter-san but I think that words alone are not enough to drive that point home, even if it is Kakashi (or Kishimoto who made him say it). People who follow the storyline will without doubt want that point to be proven in action and not words. In other words they want proof from the main character that shows that Kakashi's line was indeed truth.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by BlackShinobi07

I think everyone agrees Naruto being stronger than Kakashi is total BS.

I very much doubt that.
Many people, including me, think the way Kishimoto has chosen to show off Naruto's growth with his fight against Kakuzu was badly done and was a disservice for both fighters in the end but it doesn't change the message the autor was trying to convey : Naruto is now stronger than Kakashi.

I don't understand why so many people are surprised to see Naruto and Sasuke fighting on an equal footing (or almost there) with the Akatsuki now. This is a fighting Shonen whose main characters are kids and vilains are demigods, it was a given Naruto and Sasuke would get to this level soon enough to defeat them.
What did you think? That the Akatsuki would win or that the current generation of the good guys would reach their 50s to be finally able to take on them?

Fukitsu Naruto : Re-read the Naruto vs. Kakuzu fight and try to forget what could have been or how unlikely you think the events were unfolded. Look at the way Kakuzu handled Kakashi and the way he was quickly dispatched Naruto.
Power-level wise it doesn't matter if this fight was a disgrace, what matters is the fact Naruto outdid Kakuzu.

[BlackShinobi07]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I very much doubt that.
Many people, including me, think the way Kishimoto has chosen to show off Naruto's growth with his fight against Kakuzu was badly done and was a disservice for both fighters in the end but it doesn't change the message the autor was trying to convey : Naruto is now stronger than Kakashi.

I don't understand why so many people are surprised to see Naruto and Sasuke fighting on an equal footing (or almost there) with the Akatsuki now. This is a fighting Shonen whose main characters are kids and vilains are demigods, it was a given Naruto and Sasuke would get to this level soon enough to defeat them.
What did you think? That the Akatsuki would win or that the current generation of the good guys would reach their 50s to be finally able to take on them?

Fukitsu Naruto : Re-read the Naruto vs. Kakuzu fight and try to forget what could have been or how unlikely you think the events were unfolded. Look at the way Kakuzu handled Kakashi and the way he was quickly dispatched Naruto.
Power-level wise it doesn't matter if this fight was a disgrace, what matters is the fact Naruto outdid Kakuzu.

Lets say Naruto and Kakashi had a fight right now at their current levels. Do you seriously believe Kakashi would just stand there and let Naruto form the FRS they way Kakuzu did? No.

Think back to the beginning of Shippuden when Naruto and Sakura were fighting Kakashi. They were no match for him. Despite training with sannins for 2.5 yrs, they were both handled fairly easily by Kakashi given all their improvements(not so much for Naruto). Now, what has changed since then? Narutos FRS was created. Do you honestly believe Kakashi would stand there watching Naruto create the FRS like Kakuzu did? Knowing kakashi, I highly doubt it. Along with his vast arsenal of justu and MS, I cannot believe anyone could possibly think Naurto is even close to this guy. One justu is certainly not enough to bump you up to Jonin status. It's just ludacris.

As for the infamous kakuzu battle, I remeber him blasting Kakashi with about three different really powerful elemental justu(maybe more). I don't remember him doing a anything to Naruto other than staring him to death the whole time. That fight was obviously bogus.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Ryuujin

Though being a jinchuriki is more hindrance than help these days (only Naruto's plot armor protects him from jobbing to Akatsuki like all the others...).

For me the biggest "plot armor" was that Sasuke won the battle against Naruto in the valley of the end. Naruto did beat him so badly before Sasuke developed his 3 tomoe eye that he shouldn't have been able to move. Sasuke does not have the kyuubi to heal him instantly in the battle nor does he have a sand shield like Gaara, while he was heavily beaten in all parts of his body, he should have had at least a dozen broken bones. Plot armor defends the plot and not the main character. In that battle the plot was that Sasuke has to join Orochimaru so the plot armor defended him.

Originally Posted by BlackShinobi07

Lets say Naruto and Kakashi had a fight right now at their current levels. Do you seriously believe Kakashi would just stand there and let Naruto form the FRS they way Kakuzu did? No.

Think back to the beginning of shippuden when Naruto and Sakura were fighting Kakashi. They were no match for him. Despite training with sannins for 2.5 yrs, Kakashi still handled both of them fairly easily given all their improvements(not so much for Naruto). Now, what has changed since then? Narutos FRS was created. Do you honestly believe Kakashi would stand there watching Naruto create the FRS like Kakuzu did? Knowing kakashi, I highly doubt it. Along with his vast arsenal of justu and MS, I cannot believe anyone could possibly think Naurto is even close to this guy. One justu is certainly not enough to bump you up to Jonin status. That is just ludacris.

As for the infamous kakuzu battle, I remeber him blasting Kakshi with about three different really powerful elemental justu. I dont rememeber him doing a anything to Naruto other than staring him to death the hole time. That fight was obviously bogus.

Why do you think that Naruto was in the same state when fighting against Kakuzu and when playing with Kakashi. Naruto never used kyuubi powers in the bell test, while against Kakuzu he entered the battle having already the kyuubi eyes, which means a huge powerup for him, probably something between Sasuke's CS1 and CS2 powerup levels. The fact is that while Kakashi was beaten by Kakuzu's taijutsu and was caught by Kakuzu threads, Naruto was on offensive all the time. This means Naruto in this kyuubi-eyes mode had more power and more speed than Kakashi had. Despite the sharingan eyes Kakashi was caught by Kakuzu, which means Kakuzu's taijutsu skill (using his threads and detachable body parts and insane body endurance) was one of the strongest ever seen. Kakashi did use all his chakra just to defend against Kakuzu's elemental attacks by using his chidori jutsu. But before timskip Kakashi's limit was about 3 or 4 of those, now he used more of that already, let's just admit that Kakashi's chakra was not enought for this battle, and we know Naruto has huge chakra reserves, he could go on for hours if he wanted to fight in Kakashi-style while Kakashi's limit is probably less than an hour.

On the other hand Naruto is weak against genjutsu so if he were to fight someone like Kakashi he would be in trouble (of course if he is alone). But it is also a matter of opinion if Kakashi could beat Naruto with a genjutsu, because when we see Kakashi&Naruto vs Itachi both were beaten by Itachi's genjutsu, which means that Itachi's genjutsu so much stronger than anyone else's that we cannot base our assumptions on Itachi defeating Naruto at that time. I think if Naruto tries to dispell Kakashi's genjutsu he would have a good chance. But still if Kakashi has an MS genjutsu Naruto would surely fall for it. The question is if there is an MS genjutsu other than tsukiyomi or maybe Kakashi knows the tsukiyomi. Also Naruto is the strongest master of kagebunshin, which is a quite good defense against sharingan, it cannot detect the real Naruto and thus Kakashi would most likely waste lot of chakra on clones.

When Kakashi says Naruto surpassed him i didn't take it literally (similarily to the case when kakashi talks about Itachi going blind), i think Kakashi would still have more chance to win a fight, but Naruto became such a good ninja that he can or has already surpassed Kakashi in most of the fields, and if there's still some knowledge missing he can learn it very quickly and most importantly he can do it better than Kakashi, which he did with the wind rasengan while Kakashi was never able to do such thing despite being regarded a genius and having the sharingan.

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Fukitsu Naruto : Re-read the Naruto vs. Kakuzu fight and try to forget what could have been or how unlikely you think the events were unfolded. Look at the way Kakuzu handled Kakashi and the way he was quickly dispatched Naruto.
Power-level wise it doesn't matter if this fight was a disgrace, what matters is the fact Naruto outdid Kakuzu.

-Do you not think that the problem lies in the fact that the 1st fight which was supposed to (or did) prove Naruto was stronger than Kakashi ended up being a disgrace? I mean I can believe Naruto is stronger than Kakashi because I eat up the information Kishimoto puts out like a starving rat but others may not do so soley to the act of how the fight was played out or presented.

[tennis1690]

Sure, Naruto has surpassed Kakashi as far as potential and abilities go. However, just because Naruto beat Kakuzu when Kakashi couldn't doesn't mean that Naruto can beat Kakashi. I still think that Kakashi can beat Naruto at this point in the story (given Naruto doesn't release the Kyuubi power) because Naruto has the same fighting mentality as he did in part 1 (attack w/out thinking and let your emotions takeover) whereas Kakashi is more of a thinker and strategian.
However, I do believe Sazuke can still own Naruto (perhaps even if Naruto goes 3-tails on him) and Kakashi because he is just that good (even though I hate to admit it).

[Naotaka]

Sorry I just have to chip in here. Naruto being stronger then Kakashi is a total line of bull.

Look back at the bell exam. Kakashi told them to come as if they were to kill him. And what happened? The combined forces of Naruto & Sakura couldn't even hit him once. Not even close. A lame cop out of oh I'm going to spoil the ending for you in your favorite book was used so that Naruto & Sakura could get the bell.

What's changed since then? Seriously think about it. Naruto added a wind element to his rasengan. Big woop. He's not smarter then Kakashi, he's not faster then Kakashi, hell the only thing he has going for him, is that he has more stamina & chalkra. I suppose he could try to use his demon fox, but Kakashi has paper seals made specificly to prevent that from happening.

Not only that but even going back to the bell exam, Kakashi never even used his MS. He was just toying with the two of them. Anyone that actually thinks Naruto could take on Kakashi is seriously deluded. Yea Kishi may want you to belive that. But there's no way in hell he can prove that. Even Deidra himself said, taking out Naruto wouldn't be a problem. It was Kakashi he was worried about. The whole thing with Kakuza was also stupid as hell. And in fact Naruto would of probablly died just the same as Kakashi, if they took him on, one on one. It required Yamato, to pull Naruto away from Kakuza the first time around, so he wouldn't get his @$$ handed to him.

[Adediran242]

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-Do you not think that the problem lies in the fact that the 1st fight which was supposed to (or did) prove Naruto was stronger than Kakashi ended up being a disgrace? I mean I can believe Naruto is stronger than Kakashi because I eat up the information Kishimoto puts out like a starving rat but others may not do so soley to the act of how the fight was played out or presented.

I agree with Fukitsu, The fight between Kakashi/Team InoShikaChou, was put across quite masterfully by Kishimoto, but when Naruto came on the scene, it ended VERY anti-climactically, with an all pwnerful jutsu and a rare moment of brainpower. This would make alot of readers (including me for a time) very sceptical about Kakashi's comment on how Naruto has surpassed him.

Naruto's skills have undeniably improved dramatically, but I still find it a bitter pill to swallow when I think of him being superior to Kakashi after all I've seen him do. He continues to make the same amateur mistakes that his sensei didn't make at a young age in the Gaiden! Ah well, a character flaw makes a believable hero.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Naotaka

Anyone that actually thinks Naruto could take on Kakashi is seriously deluded. Yea Kishi may want you to belive that. But there's no way in hell he can prove that. Even Deidra himself said, taking out Naruto wouldn't be a problem.

Actually, he could prove it pretty easily...

But, Kishimoto really doesn't have to prove anything because what he writes is "reality" as far as the story's universe is concerned. These are not real people, but Kishi's creations. He determines the strength and attributes of each character and they can be as strong or weak as he sees fit.

No matter how weak you perceive Naruto to be or how strong you believe Kakashi is, if Kishi writes that Naruto has surpassed Kakashi, then that is the truth of the matter unless he explains otherwise. If he showed Naruto's strength unconvincingly, then it doesn't reflect well on his storytelling, but it still doesn't change the fact that Naruto has surpassed Kakashi.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-Do you not think that the problem lies in the fact that the 1st fight which was supposed to (or did) prove Naruto was stronger than Kakashi ended up being a disgrace? I mean I can believe Naruto is stronger than Kakashi because I eat up the information Kishimoto puts out like a starving rat but others may not do so soley to the act of how the fight was played out or presented.

I'm not saying everybody believed what Kakashi said, in fact I'm not even saying it was very believable given what we have seen. I'm saying that being believable or not is completely irrelevant to the way Naruto will fight in his future combats.

Let's use a previous fight like Naruto vs. Gaara. Did Naruto had an ability to bypass the Sand Shield/Armor? Did he have enough speed to keep up with partially transformed Gaara who outspeeded Sasuke who at the time was as fast as unweighted Lee? The answer is no in both count but did it change the result of the fight? No. In fact when did Naruto ever trained his speed pretimeskip to become able to stand against someone as fast as Sasuke was?
You can whine all you want about all of this because it doesn't seem logical but it's not going to matter at all.
Sentences like this :

Anyone that actually thinks Naruto could take on Kakashi is seriously deluded. Yea Kishi may want you to belive that. But there's no way in hell he can prove that.

Are actually quite funny, Kishimoto isn't some kind of journalist talking about real people, they are nothing but what he wants them to be and if you don't believe him you are just going to whine some more when things aren't going to happen as you thought it would.

To return somewhat on-topic this is the same for Itachi vs. Sasuke, you see plenty of people saying it's absolutly impossible for Sasuke to win. Well sorry guys but yes he has a good chance now especially if this fight is the real deal (though I wouldn't bet on it, it's one of the very few fight I really have no idea what's going to happen). It's useless to compare their resumé (vilains always have a more impressive curiculum anyway) or trying analyzing their abilities (for the few we know from Itachi).

The only thing that matter is what Kishimoto wants to happen with his characters.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Look at the way Kakuzu handled Kakashi and the way he was quickly dispatched Naruto.

What does it matter, if he cannot use that power effectively? Naruto has one of the most powerful jutsus, he has 4 times the chakra capacity of Kakashi, but, at the end, he still needed the help of Kakashi and Yamato to avoid getting killed in the first try. Of course the opponent he faced was already reduced to a lower offensive capacity (his lower chakra and the number of new and old opponents restricting the use of his remaining capacity against a single opponent) and defensive capacity (reduced number of hearts in addition to facing other opponents that can join the fight at anytime) thanks to his early fights. (that is why I didn't find Kakuzu's loss an overly exaggerated loss to illustrate Naruto's strength)

Naruto should have beaten Kakuzu regardless of those helps, and the fight has no proof of that. And, Kakashi's fight against Kakuzu does not really mean a lot without the use of MS. If you want to consider Kakashi's MS the same as Naruto's Kyuubi mode (which has not also been taken into account during the evaluation), that is something I have to disagree.

Anyway, that kind of fight was expected, since Naruto still has a very long way to go to reach his full capacity (chakra, intelligence, tactics, techniques corresponding to chakra increase), unlike Sasuke who may have only left MS to develop (as he might have already maxed in many of the other areas or with no significant growth expected in a short period).

[Ero-Senn1n]

To add one more fact about Naruto vs Kakuzu: based on that fight Madara did praise Naruto to be quite dangerous and having an super strong jutsu. That's when Konan says that Pein never lost a fight. It's true that he is now playing with Naruto, but he still said that to Pein. It was probably Zetsu who was watching the fight where Naruto defeated Kakuzu.

[BlackShinobi07]

Originally Posted by Naotaka

Sorry I just have to chip in here. Naruto being stronger then Kakashi is a total line of bull.

Look back at the bell exam. Kakashi told them to come as if they were to kill him. And what happened? The combined forces of Naruto & Sakura couldn't even hit him once. Not even close. A lame cop out of oh I'm going to spoil the ending for you in your favorite book was used so that Naruto & Sakura could get the bell.

What's changed since then? Seriously think about it. Naruto added a wind element to his rasengan. Big woop. He's not smarter then Kakashi, he's not faster then Kakashi, hell the only thing he has going for him, is that he has more stamina & chalkra. I suppose he could try to use his demon fox, but Kakashi has paper seals made specificly to prevent that from happening.

Not only that but even going back to the bell exam, Kakashi never even used his MS. He was just toying with the two of them. Anyone that actually thinks Naruto could take on Kakashi is seriously deluded. Yea Kishi may want you to belive that. But there's no way in hell he can prove that. Even Deidra himself said, taking out Naruto wouldn't be a problem. It was Kakashi he was worried about. The whole thing with Kakuza was also stupid as hell. And in fact Naruto would of probablly died just the same as Kakashi, if they took him on, one on one. It required Yamato, to pull Naruto away from Kakuza the first time around, so he wouldn't get his @$$ handed to him.

I wholeheartedly agree.

[Goshin]

Originally Posted by Naotaka

Sorry I just have to chip in here. Naruto being stronger then Kakashi is a total line of bull.

Look back at the bell exam. Kakashi told them to come as if they were to kill him. And what happened? The combined forces of Naruto & Sakura couldn't even hit him once. Not even close. A lame cop out of oh I'm going to spoil the ending for you in your favorite book was used so that Naruto & Sakura could get the bell.

What's changed since then? Seriously think about it. Naruto added a wind element to his rasengan. Big woop. He's not smarter then Kakashi, he's not faster then Kakashi, hell the only thing he has going for him, is that he has more stamina & chalkra. I suppose he could try to use his demon fox, but Kakashi has paper seals made specificly to prevent that from happening.

Not only that but even going back to the bell exam, Kakashi never even used his MS. He was just toying with the two of them. Anyone that actually thinks Naruto could take on Kakashi is seriously deluded. Yea Kishi may want you to belive that. But there's no way in hell he can prove that. Even Deidra himself said, taking out Naruto wouldn't be a problem. It was Kakashi he was worried about. The whole thing with Kakuza was also stupid as hell. And in fact Naruto would of probablly died just the same as Kakashi, if they took him on, one on one. It required Yamato, to pull Naruto away from Kakuza the first time around, so he wouldn't get his @$$ handed to him.

even when they say that to each other, they obviously are not going to try to kill each other. kakashi oboviously wouldn't use MS and naruto obviously wouldn't use Kyuubi

I think naruto got a lot more out of the FSR training than a uber new justsu. He learned to pay attention to the information that his KB's are sending which is a big help. with that training, he probably learned more chakra control. I don't know if I am explaining it right,what i am trying to point out, is that a lot of times when were are trying to learn one thing, we learn many other things.

also the first try mess up thing, kishi did that on purpose cause he did not want naruto to become to cool and "human" so he made him embarrassed himself on the first try. just like how jiraiya messes up his introductions.

I don't really believe that naruto can pwn kakashi either, i don't think kakashi can pwn naruto either. what i think kakashi meant is that naruto has reached a point where he can't teach naruto anymore. and naruto has to figure out new tricks and moves on his own now.

I also think that naruto's state of mind as changed a little.of course the impatience is part of him, that is what makes naruto naruto, but it doesn't seem as bad as it use too. from the recent chapters, when he attacked tobi, i don't blame him that much, the mission objective is to get to itachi/sasuke, someone comes in your way, you quickly kill them and continue with the mission. it just so happen that tobi is madara and stuff go through him. if that had been a real solid body, the resengan could have finished him or immobilize him enough for the other team members to go for the kill (yay teamwork!). and we see that after he got kicked in the face he did not immediatly start attacking again. the old naruto would have done so.

so ends my pointless rant....

[Lunarskylar]

i think naruto can beat kakashi, but only for one reason
in every fight, the battle isn't won until there is a giant kock out jutsu
for kakashi it's raikiri
you honestly can't beat super human stamina naruto without some finished knockout jutsu
we've all seen howmany times he's had the shit punched outta him, but still got up
you need one big bang
thus kakshi would need to BAM raikiri naruto to finish it
butt, likely this is when naruto will form a FRS to counter it
and well FRS > Raikiri easily xD
but that's shounen logic,
easily kakshi should trap naruto in teh earth with his douton, and raikir his head off
xD but never gunna happen

also now with j-man's daeth, and kishi's proclaimation of this being the kick to naruto's growth, i wonder how much you guys will be able to complain about the 'grown up' naruto of 08'

[vision55]

Originally Posted by Lunarskylar

i think naruto can beat kakashi, but only for one reason
in every fight, the battle isn't won until there is a giant kock out jutsu
for kakashi it's raikiri
you honestly can't beat super human stamina naruto without some finished knockout jutsu
we've all seen howmany times he's had the shit punched outta him, but still got up
you need one big bang
thus kakshi would need to BAM raikiri naruto to finish it
butt, likely this is when naruto will form a FRS to counter it
and well FRS > Raikiri easily xD
but that's shounen logic,
easily kakshi should trap naruto in teh earth with his douton, and raikir his head off
xD but never gunna happen

also now with j-man's daeth, and kishi's proclaimation of this being the kick to naruto's growth, i wonder how much you guys will be able to complain about the 'grown up' naruto of 08'

I assume you think that kakashi is the slowest ninja ever, that he would not see the "FRS" coming. Further more Naruto cannot use KageBullsheet in order to conceal where the "FRS" is coming from because kakashi would see right through the clones....Untill Naruto can overcome the dotted eyes he cannot defeat the copy ninja. ALL of Naruto's wins over anyone is because they UNDERESTIMATED him so he got the jump on them and knocked them out. I do not foresee kakashi underestimating his former student.

[KageGunshi Shikamaru]

I love Naruto as a character and I find it frustrating that he's not past the point he's at right now. Granted he recently found out about Kage-learning no jutsu but if he'd just STOP RUNNING AFTER SAUSKE for just a second the ammount of information he could process is incredible.

He could read all the books of Konohas librarys at the same time, he could gather countless tactical approaches, he could learn most elemental jutsu's simultaniusly, at least those that he has somewhat an affinity for I think earth is on the other side of the spectrum but I digress...

The plot has given him potential to become a great ninja thats only surpassed by Sharingan.. in that he can't just look at a jutsu and learn it. As much as it pains me I think the author doesn't want him to use it. Naruto's character has always been the screwup that never gives up so I don't think theres any drive to make him powerful.

I just hope that after this Sauske/Itachi thing is over, after he finds out about the J man that he just goes to train with the frogs for a couple of months. Then and only then will I admit that he may surpass Kakashi. Until then he's no better than the other Chunin from his class if he's even that good.