AnimeSuki Forums

Yye1 · 2013-07-12, 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris38

Considering how the current latest volume ended, I don't see how that would actually occur, unless something starts happening, in the present day, while Godou, Erica and Ena are dealing with the situation in the past world.

In any other case, I think that you will need to wait until Godou's trip to the past ends, and he returns to the present era, to see more of Liliana.

You have no idea how sad this makes me

bakapervert · 2013-07-14, 07:33

I'm wondering, how can the magic community here hide the existence of supernatural completely from the world? In Uldin's time the people are still in the know about the supernatural. And with how often Campione and heretic god wracking havoc in the world, it should be hard to hide their existence completely. Furthermore, do the mage really need to hide the heretic god existence? Shouldn't it be better if the common people aware of the dissaster that can happen?

ImperialFlameGod8190 · 2013-07-14, 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by bakapervert

I'm wondering, how can the magic community here hide the existence of supernatural completely from the world? In Uldin's time the people are still in the know about the supernatural. And with how often Campione and heretic god wracking havoc in the world, it should be hard to hide their existence completely. Furthermore, do the mage really need to hide the heretic god existence? Shouldn't it be better if the common people aware of the dissaster that can happen?

not at all I ask u this how many stories have u seen where people with power become enemies of the communities they live in. If the normal people know what can happen they'd try to kill the god slayers because they control this kind of power. I understand what u mean but there's only so much I can do.

Yami no Ou · 2013-07-14, 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by bakapervert

I'm wondering, how can the magic community here hide the existence of supernatural completely from the world? In Uldin's time the people are still in the know about the supernatural. And with how often Campione and heretic god wracking havoc in the world, it should be hard to hide their existence completely. Furthermore, do the mage really need to hide the heretic god existence? Shouldn't it be better if the common people aware of the dissaster that can happen?

I don't think it will be better if they know about the supernatural cause how can normal people live normally if they fear that a disaster might happen because of [Heretic God]'s or Campione's

Feng Lengshun · 2013-07-14, 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by bakapervert

I'm wondering, how can the magic community here hide the existence of supernatural completely from the world? In Uldin's time the people are still in the know about the supernatural. And with how often Campione and heretic god wracking havoc in the world, it should be hard to hide their existence completely. Furthermore, do the mage really need to hide the heretic god existence? Shouldn't it be better if the common people aware of the dissaster that can happen?

I thought I have already discussed that in my story. It isn't they who hides it, it is humans who denies their existence. Originally, Gods and Myths are meant as a way to explain how the world works. As time progress however, the world is explained through science.

Gods themselves are more of devices, Deus ex machinas, to the old myths. Mythologist Joseph Campbell, who studied the very origins of storytelling, says we tell stories to make sense of mortal life. Stories have always been about human beings, and Gods are more of Plot Devices (which explains their poor characterization). In other word, they aren't really important and thus why it is possible to 'forget' about them.

The Gods and Myths that still remains today are the ones that managed to survive the religion wars and struggle against science. Those who lost in them were 'forgotten' thus why their existence was not found out and hidden from the world.

As for whether it is better to hide them... I think so. Think about how would society, economy, and political collapse that would ensues from the mass hysteria of their existence being found out. The panicking masses would blame the governments and the ensuing chaos would definitely not be pretty. It would make the 'Ee ja nai ka' looks tame in comparison

Zurvan · 2013-07-14, 10:36

I've been rereading the series and found something a little strange to me.

("No, that's not it. Leaving aside the other godslayers, because you were born at the ends of the east, I'm specially telling you this. On the island where Godou lives, sleeps the strongest 《Steel》, so you have to be careful, for the time being. Understand?"
"Strongest?"
"Yes, the strongest. Although the hero-sama you are fighting now is also strong, that person is even stronger."
".... Why would that kind of person be in Japan?"
"Because, that is the end of the east - beyond that lies only sea, in other words. There are many things that have been swept there, heaped up there... perhaps it might be fine, seeing as that has already been sleeping for so long."
"Regarding that, could you please elaborate further?"
"Sorry, no can do. We stand at the side of the gods, after all, so I can't tell you any more than that. This is the pact that we have with this world, rules that we absolutely have to abide by.... Furthermore, whatever I say here, won't you forget once you return? Even if I do elaborate, it won't be of any use."
"Now that you mention it, that's true..."
Godou replied in a soft voice. Her words did, after all, remain in this realm of unconsciousness.
Perhaps the sixth sense and instincts of the Campiones that Godou had, were the information that she had relayed from this realm.
"Be careful. That person, is really vulgar, an enemy of women, unfit for the title of 'hero'! If you end up having to fight him again, you definitely cannot lose! You must give him a thorough thrashing!")

It says here that Pandora can't do much because she is at the side of the gods. (Then why make Campiones that kill them?) Also it say that Artus is really vulgar, an enemy of women, unfit for the title of 'hero'. Isn't that weird for the Steel category?

Feng Lengshun · 2013-07-14, 10:42

^ From where was that again? The question is, can we trust her information? Technically, the same description could be applied to Godou (and it has, in-universe wise). As for her being in the side of Gods but creating Campiones... well, maybe she's just the administrator of the system and her allegiance is to Gods because she's one herself? Besides, I did said that she is rather suspicious and I personally do not trust her words (at least not at face value).

Kadi · 2013-07-14, 11:35

It's from V4C4. As for Pandora saying she's on the side of the gods, I think it means she's a goddess and thus bound by the rules.

As for how/why the existence of magic and gods is hidden... "because Godou couldn't have a normal life to develop away from otherwise", coupled with a good portion of "willing suspension of disbelief". If you want a more in-universe reasoning, in Europe magic associations keep it under wraps everywhere, China has the Luo Hao's cult, Japan the HCC. I'd assume other regions either have similar institutions or they're not as magically active. That keeps the large-scale news clean. Europe's magic associations (and China's cult) have enough resources (and reasons) to get major influence with all news agencies anyway. And on a small scale it's implied that the people are somewhat aware and decide to ignore it (or they're quickly brainwashed to some degree). See Vol 3 for that.

bakapervert · 2013-07-14, 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feng Lengshun

I thought I have already discussed that in my story. It isn't they who hides it, it is humans who denies their existence. Originally, Gods and Myths are meant as a way to explain how the world works. As time progress however, the world is explained through science.

Gods themselves are more of devices, Deus ex machinas, to the old myths. Mythologist Joseph Campbell, who studied the very origins of storytelling, says we tell stories to make sense of mortal life. Stories have always been about human beings, and Gods are more of Plot Devices (which explains their poor characterization). In other word, they aren't really important and thus why it is possible to 'forget' about them.

The Gods and Myths that still remains today are the ones that managed to survive the religion wars and struggle against science. Those who lost in them were 'forgotten' thus why their existence was not found out and hidden from the world.

As for whether it is better to hide them... I think so. Think about how would society, economy, and political collapse that would ensues from the mass hysteria of their existence being found out. The panicking masses would blame the governments and the ensuing chaos would definitely not be pretty. It would make the 'Ee ja nai ka' looks tame in comparison

The panic and chaos can only happen because such dangerous knowledge is hidden and revealed suddenly, the chaos come from the sudden shock. But the ancient people know about the existence of god and magic and they can still live normally while prostating before Campione or god as shown from the poeple Godou meet in the past.

Its not that I don't like the setting where the magic is hidden, I'm just curious why all the mage in the whole world decide they're better off hiding. Our current society is like this because science can really explain everything and myth is just really myth. But in Campione universe where god really exist and they still descend to the world all the time, for what reason the whole magic society suddenly decide in the past to hide theirself from common people when they are not powerless and doesn't have reason to fear persecution? For the heretic god and Campione who is almost invincible, why do they also make their existence as secret? Why does the god who should be fussy about their follower and worship is hiding their existence?

And what's going to happen if someday there is someone vain who become Campione, decide he want to rule the world or a country, attack and annihilate the goverment and take over a country and reveal the secret worldwide, I don't think there is any way for the magic community to hide if that happen. After all we can see from Uldin that its possible for Campione to has ambition like that. I'm curious how can it be in the modern time the secrecy is completely enforced when there is a lot of heretic god and Campione who don't follow common sense, and why in the first place the magic community decide to hide.

Feng Lengshun · 2013-07-15, 01:27

^ As far as I know, there are two kinds of Gods in general: The ones that represents nature and the ones that ascends from being humans (exaggerated stories of heroes, kings, and tyrants). The first one is denied by science while the latter is denied because they have the former type as the main foundation.

The movement of science being the actual explanations is older than you think it is. It's as early as in Ancient Greek, where Plato mostly uses Ideas/Forms rather than Gods (and when he does, it is only in a story). Meanwhile, Herodotus' accounts are questioned due to it having fantastical elements, despite him being the father of history.

Now, imagine such things piling up and eventually reaching where in present times, science are called as the explanation of phenomenons while things such as magics are considered fantasies or rationalization of the people of the past. Myths themselves are mostly spread through traditions, thus confined to an area while science are spread through things such as educations, newspapers, and public announcements. The natural result was the general skepticism towards myths and legends by the public.

The situation has become like that and combined with the fact that those Heretic Gods and Campiones are akin to natural disasters anyway, the mages decided that it would be best if the status quo remains. The acts of Heretic Gods and Campiones was attributed to natural disaster which is attributed to some scientific phenomenon, which is what the public generally accepts due to skepticism towards myths. The Gods themselves aren't helping as unlike the Old Gods in the American Gods, they only do as they like, causing disasters, instead of trying to assert themselves to remain relevant. When they do assert themselves, it is only done due to their narcissism (as the case with Perseus) and is more hypnotic in nature.

Due to the general chaos that would ensues from the revelation, it is natural action to try to preserve the status quo as long as possible. When it is revealed, then what happens happens. But until then, the masquerade must go on for the sake of world peace.

bakapervert · 2013-07-15, 02:25

^ Hmm, thanks for the explanation. I guess your explanation is quite possible, though its still quite hard to believe with so many heretic god roaming the world and how disastrous Campione are, the whole world can become that disbelieving toward supernatural being.

Hidfe · 2013-07-15, 14:27

I don’t think the author himself has thought about why the magic world does council the existence of Gods. Like someone said he probably simply needed it for his scenario.

But thinking about it could make logical sense. I mean what do we know about Gods? That they are born from myths. Some people in the magic field could have thought that the more people believe in a certain god the more likely it is that one will ascend and therefore they tried to limit their belief. I mean think about it. If people knew gods materialize, many people would know many more gods. Many more than your average man knows which might help in the birth of a god. So if everyone thinks that they are myths and the less gods everyone knows the “safer” the world is.

And why they keep campiones a secret is already explained. Because there are many really stupid people who might do stupid things which might mean the destruction of a city as a result.

Feng Lengshun · 2013-07-20, 13:39

Meta-wise, the reason is Theory of Narrative Causality.

You know, I think that Gods would be much more dangerous than they are right now should they have a long-term planning mentality. See, they could change themselves and their powers as much as they want. So, take an isolated village/tribal gatherings, get worshiped by them (thus creating a small legend) then start spreading it to other places. I have three possible results in my hypothesis:

1. The God permanently gains a new aspect/Authority.
2. The God gains a new aspect/Authority as long as the myths are being circulated as those myths aren't physically part of him.
3. The God gains a new aspect/Authority as long as the myths are being circulated and he is the place where the myths are circulated.

This create a new question/theory though: Could Gods appears in places that doesn't have their legends? Well, not exactly that (there's Uldin and his Authorities after all), but you get what I mean based on the above theories, right? Strictly speaking, thanks to the internet, their legends are everywhere and since this is in the present times, there's no way to prove it. I am really interested in how the Gods are in the past times. Which is why, I hope the Author clarifies it (the mechanism) in the next Volume.

Kadi · 2013-07-20, 19:19

Don't gods remain the same once they have descended (think Lancelot)? So even if they messed with their own legends, they wouldn't gain anything out of it, only in a next incarnation. Which, if it happens at all, may take a thousand years or more, when the changes they made may have been forgotten or led to a completely new god (think Artus).

And we can already speculate how gods descend: We know there needs to be a legend about them (take Perseus) and a trigger (a dragon appearing). Personally, I assume the location needs to fit, too. Perseus descended in a volcano in a country related to him, didn't he? A volcano is also related to fire, which is required to forge steel. It would also be reasonable to think of it as a place with dense natural magic energy which at least won't hinder the process.

Another example, Melqart: Legend check. Trigger is Verethragna looking for a challenge, check. Location is related to Melqart, too. He was probably the most powerful god related to the region... and weren't there even temples for him? Anyway, check.

Dunno how Artemis got into New York's Central Park, though... then again, we know nothing about that event so w/e~~

Endscape · 2013-07-20, 20:19

I think it was mentioned that gods can appear in places unrelated to their myths.

Feng Lengshun · 2013-07-20, 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadi

Don't gods remain the same once they have descended (think Lancelot)? So even if they messed with their own legends, they wouldn't gain anything out of it, only in a next incarnation. Which, if it happens at all, may take a thousand years or more, when the changes they made may have been forgotten or led to a completely new god (think Artus).

And we can already speculate how gods descend: We know there needs to be a legend about them (take Perseus) and a trigger (a dragon appearing). Personally, I assume the location needs to fit, too. Perseus descended in a volcano in a country related to him, didn't he? A volcano is also related to fire, which is required to forge steel. It would also be reasonable to think of it as a place with dense natural magic energy which at least won't hinder the process.

Another example, Melqart: Legend check. Trigger is Verethragna looking for a challenge, check. Location is related to Melqart, too. He was probably the most powerful god related to the region... and weren't there even temples for him? Anyway, check.

Dunno how Artemis got into New York's Central Park, though... then again, we know nothing about that event so w/e~~

Then is Lancelot have always been like that (having an armor and all) and have the galloping Authority?

alviam099 · 2013-07-21, 01:34

Artemis could have just traveled to America, come on, Athena did the same thing.

Part 2 of the chapter 1 of manga is released, ugh, I hate everything that adapts Campione, they don't do the series justice.

Kadi · 2013-07-21, 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endscape

I think it was mentioned that gods can appear in places unrelated to their myths.

Hmm... any idea where?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feng Lengshun

Then is Lancelot have always been like that (having an armor and all) and have the galloping Authority?

Yep. Her people were so successful because they invented heavy cavalry. Including charges.

belatkuro · 2013-07-21, 02:19

Verethragna I suppose. He's a Persian deity yet he is wandering in the middle of Sardinia
I believe Yuri commented on that in volume 1.

Yami no Ou · 2013-07-21, 05:38

Verethragna is wandering cause he is looking for a suitable opponent who can defeat him

2013-07-14, 10:42	Link #7867
Feng Lengshun Old Wine Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: In my Body	^ From where was that again? The question is, can we trust her information? Technically, the same description could be applied to Godou (and it has, in-universe wise). As for her being in the side of Gods but creating Campiones... well, maybe she's just the administrator of the system and her allegiance is to Gods because she's one herself? Besides, I did said that she is rather suspicious and I personally do not trust her words (at least not at face value). __________________ *A Really* Extensive Guide on Making a Story, OCs, and Characterizations.**

2013-07-15, 01:27	Link #7870
Feng Lengshun Old Wine Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: In my Body	^ As far as I know, there are two kinds of Gods in general: The ones that represents nature and the ones that ascends from being humans (exaggerated stories of heroes, kings, and tyrants). The first one is denied by science while the latter is denied because they have the former type as the main foundation. The movement of science being the actual explanations is older than you think it is. It's as early as in Ancient Greek, where Plato mostly uses Ideas/Forms rather than Gods (and when he does, it is only in a story). Meanwhile, Herodotus' accounts are questioned due to it having fantastical elements, despite him being the father of history. Now, imagine such things piling up and eventually reaching where in present times, science are called as the explanation of phenomenons while things such as magics are considered fantasies or rationalization of the people of the past. Myths themselves are mostly spread through traditions, thus confined to an area while science are spread through things such as educations, newspapers, and public announcements. The natural result was the general skepticism towards myths and legends by the public. The situation has become like that and combined with the fact that those Heretic Gods and Campiones are akin to natural disasters anyway, the mages decided that it would be best if the status quo remains. The acts of Heretic Gods and Campiones was attributed to natural disaster which is attributed to some scientific phenomenon, which is what the public generally accepts due to skepticism towards myths. The Gods themselves aren't helping as unlike the Old Gods in the American Gods, they only do as they like, causing disasters, instead of trying to assert themselves to remain relevant. When they do assert themselves, it is only done due to their narcissism (as the case with Perseus) and is more hypnotic in nature. Due to the general chaos that would ensues from the revelation, it is natural action to try to preserve the status quo as long as possible. When it is revealed, then what happens happens. But until then, the masquerade must go on for the sake of world peace. __________________ *A Really* Extensive Guide on Making a Story, OCs, and Characterizations.**

2013-07-20, 13:39	Link #7873
Feng Lengshun Old Wine Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: In my Body	Meta-wise, the reason is Theory of Narrative Causality. You know, I think that Gods would be much more dangerous than they are right now should they have a long-term planning mentality. See, they could change themselves and their powers as much as they want. So, take an isolated village/tribal gatherings, get worshiped by them (thus creating a small legend) then start spreading it to other places. I have three possible results in my hypothesis: 1. The God permanently gains a new aspect/Authority. 2. The God gains a new aspect/Authority as long as the myths are being circulated as those myths aren't physically part of him. 3. The God gains a new aspect/Authority as long as the myths are being circulated and he is the place where the myths are circulated. This create a new question/theory though: Could Gods appears in places that doesn't have their legends? Well, not exactly that (there's Uldin and his Authorities after all), but you get what I mean based on the above theories, right? Strictly speaking, thanks to the internet, their legends are everywhere and since this is in the present times, there's no way to prove it. I am really interested in how the Gods are in the past times. Which is why, I hope the Author clarifies it (the mechanism) in the next Volume. __________________ *A Really* Extensive Guide on Making a Story, OCs, and Characterizations.**

2013-07-20, 20:19	Link #7875
Endscape The Mage of Four Hearts Author Join Date: Mar 2010 Age: 33	I think it was mentioned that gods can appear in places unrelated to their myths. __________________ Illusion, illusion, this is illusion. It cannot harm me.

2013-07-21, 01:34	Link #7877
alviam099 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010	Artemis could have just traveled to America, come on, Athena did the same thing. Part 2 of the chapter 1 of manga is released, ugh, I hate everything that adapts Campione, they don't do the series justice. __________________

2013-07-14, 07:33	Link #7862
bakapervert A pervert Join Date: Oct 2012	I'm wondering, how can the magic community here hide the existence of supernatural completely from the world? In Uldin's time the people are still in the know about the supernatural. And with how often Campione and heretic god wracking havoc in the world, it should be hard to hide their existence completely. Furthermore, do the mage really need to hide the heretic god existence? Shouldn't it be better if the common people aware of the dissaster that can happen?

2013-07-14, 10:36	Link #7866
Zurvan Divine Monarch Join Date: Jun 2013	I've been rereading the series and found something a little strange to me. ("No, that's not it. Leaving aside the other godslayers, because you were born at the ends of the east, I'm specially telling you this. On the island where Godou lives, sleeps the strongest 《Steel》, so you have to be careful, for the time being. Understand?" "Strongest?" "Yes, the strongest. Although the hero-sama you are fighting now is also strong, that person is even stronger." ".... Why would that kind of person be in Japan?" "Because, that is the end of the east - beyond that lies only sea, in other words. There are many things that have been swept there, heaped up there... perhaps it might be fine, seeing as that has already been sleeping for so long." "Regarding that, could you please elaborate further?" "Sorry, no can do. We stand at the side of the gods, after all, so I can't tell you any more than that. This is the pact that we have with this world, rules that we absolutely have to abide by.... Furthermore, whatever I say here, won't you forget once you return? Even if I do elaborate, it won't be of any use." "Now that you mention it, that's true..." Godou replied in a soft voice. Her words did, after all, remain in this realm of unconsciousness. Perhaps the sixth sense and instincts of the Campiones that Godou had, were the information that she had relayed from this realm. "Be careful. That person, is really vulgar, an enemy of women, unfit for the title of 'hero'! If you end up having to fight him again, you definitely cannot lose! You must give him a thorough thrashing!") It says here that Pandora can't do much because she is at the side of the gods. (Then why make Campiones that kill them?) Also it say that Artus is really vulgar, an enemy of women, unfit for the title of 'hero'. Isn't that weird for the Steel category?

2013-07-14, 11:35	Link #7868
Kadi 知識の探求者 Join Date: Feb 2012	It's from V4C4. As for Pandora saying she's on the side of the gods, I think it means she's a goddess and thus bound by the rules. As for how/why the existence of magic and gods is hidden... "because Godou couldn't have a normal life to develop away from otherwise", coupled with a good portion of "willing suspension of disbelief". If you want a more in-universe reasoning, in Europe magic associations keep it under wraps everywhere, China has the Luo Hao's cult, Japan the HCC. I'd assume other regions either have similar institutions or they're not as magically active. That keeps the large-scale news clean. Europe's magic associations (and China's cult) have enough resources (and reasons) to get major influence with all news agencies anyway. And on a small scale it's implied that the people are somewhat aware and decide to ignore it (or they're quickly brainwashed to some degree). See Vol 3 for that.

2013-07-15, 02:25	Link #7871
bakapervert A pervert Join Date: Oct 2012	^ Hmm, thanks for the explanation. I guess your explanation is quite possible, though its still quite hard to believe with so many heretic god roaming the world and how disastrous Campione are, the whole world can become that disbelieving toward supernatural being.

2013-07-15, 14:27	Link #7872
Hidfe Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012	I don’t think the author himself has thought about why the magic world does council the existence of Gods. Like someone said he probably simply needed it for his scenario. But thinking about it could make logical sense. I mean what do we know about Gods? That they are born from myths. Some people in the magic field could have thought that the more people believe in a certain god the more likely it is that one will ascend and therefore they tried to limit their belief. I mean think about it. If people knew gods materialize, many people would know many more gods. Many more than your average man knows which might help in the birth of a god. So if everyone thinks that they are myths and the less gods everyone knows the “safer” the world is. And why they keep campiones a secret is already explained. Because there are many really stupid people who might do stupid things which might mean the destruction of a city as a result.

2013-07-20, 19:19	Link #7874
Kadi 知識の探求者 Join Date: Feb 2012	Don't gods remain the same once they have descended (think Lancelot)? So even if they messed with their own legends, they wouldn't gain anything out of it, only in a next incarnation. Which, if it happens at all, may take a thousand years or more, when the changes they made may have been forgotten or led to a completely new god (think Artus). And we can already speculate how gods descend: We know there needs to be a legend about them (take Perseus) and a trigger (a dragon appearing). Personally, I assume the location needs to fit, too. Perseus descended in a volcano in a country related to him, didn't he? A volcano is also related to fire, which is required to forge steel. It would also be reasonable to think of it as a place with dense natural magic energy which at least won't hinder the process. Another example, Melqart: Legend check. Trigger is Verethragna looking for a challenge, check. Location is related to Melqart, too. He was probably the most powerful god related to the region... and weren't there even temples for him? Anyway, check. Dunno how Artemis got into New York's Central Park, though... then again, we know nothing about that event so w/e~~

2013-07-21, 02:19	Link #7879
belatkuro Kuro-chan Join Date: Mar 2012	Verethragna I suppose. He's a Persian deity yet he is wandering in the middle of Sardinia I believe Yuri commented on that in volume 1.

2013-07-21, 05:38	Link #7880
Yami no Ou まおう Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: At the Edge of the World	Verethragna is wandering cause he is looking for a suitable opponent who can defeat him __________________