Character Discussion - Lelouch

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Cephei Mordred

It has been suggested that Lelouch has Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder bought on by feeling a lack of control.

Problem is, by that standard, who DOESN'T have it to some degree?

Well, I think the real reason Lelouch acted the way he did was because he had a sever medical condition. And that condition was known as being batshit insane.

...Okay, no not really. Personally, Lelouch is something of an enigma to me. I don't exactly why he did what he did, and, really, a lot of that goes into the age old debate of nurture vs. nature. Are we products of our environment or are we just born that way? Personally, I think it's a combination of both.

Let's face it, Lelouch has seen a lot of things. A lot of horrible terrible things. Combine that with the fact that he comes from a family of power hungry, sociopathic war-mongerers and...well, it's just not a good combination at all. But back to your question, is it PTSD? Well, his mother's murder was the definitely what set him off and put him on the path of vengeance with the whole "I Will Destroy Britannia!" schpeel. But I think there's also a lot of other stuff that went into it as well.

Of course, if it is PTSD, it's the worse case of PTSD I've ever seen.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Well, I think the real reason Lelouch acted the way he did was because he had a sever medical condition. And that condition was known as being batshit insane.

...Okay, no not really. Personally, Lelouch is something of an enigma to me. I don't exactly why he did what he did, and, really, a lot of that goes into the age old debate of nurture vs. nature. Are we products of our environment or are we just born that way? Personally, I think it's a combination of both.

Let's face it, Lelouch has seen a lot of things. A lot of horrible terrible things. Combine that with the fact that he comes from a family of power hungry, sociopathic war-mongerers and...well, it's just not a good combination at all. But back to your question, is it PTSD? Well, his mother's murder was the definitely what set him off and put him on the path of vengeance with the whole "I Will Destroy Britannia!" schpeel. But I think there's also a lot of other stuff that went into it as well.

Of course, if it is PTSD, it's the worse case of PTSD I've ever seen.

Mh, I really don't think much points towards "nature" in Lelouch's case - most of his issues can indeed be easily traced back to his mother's death and the way his father handled it.
Of course, we'll never know for sure.

CPTSD isn't quite the same as what you'd usually call PTSD, by the way, but a variation of it.

[Arbitres]

Lelouch's psychosis was unique as he was extremely intelligent, and detached from the beginning of the anime/manga, only confiding in less then a group of people. One including his sister, and his frienemy Suzaku.

He could indeed run in the blood, but also remember that there is recessive genes as well as dominant. He most likely took after Charles in the term of mentality, while he in appearance took after his mother. The question is, did that make him susceptible to that molding of mentality? We know the most likely source: The assassination of his mother.

Let's not forget how helpless he felt when he became a hostage. Japanese citizens treating him quite cruelly. Which may have furthered his PTSD/CPTSD if he did develope it.


Now then, allow me to diagnose the situation with this simple explanation...


His geass developed as a sort of mind control known as 'Absolute Obedience'. It is that person's deepest desire, as pointed out by C.C.. Which would explain that, the chances of him having it skyrocketed to being 'possibly' to 'most likely'

Did I forget to mention anything? Perhaps any.. discrepancies?

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

Lelouch's psychosis was unique as he was extremely intelligent, and detached from the beginning of the anime/manga, only confiding in less then a group of people. One including his sister, and his frienemy Suzaku.

I'm not sure that automatically makes a psychosis more "unique", as everyone is an individual, but other than that, I mostly agree, especially since it's a fictional work.
And actually, Suzaku and Nunnally really were the only people he truly trusted for most of the time, if in different ways. He even felt trapped at Ashford, and thought that if things got bad, his friends would immediately abandon him (beginning of season one).

He could indeed run in the blood, but also remember that there is recessive genes as well as dominant. He most likely took after Charles in the term of mentality, while he in appearance took after his mother.

Hum, to be honest, I don't think Okouchi cared too much about dominant and recessive genes. Either way, I don't think personality is mostly hereditary, although in fictional works, you never know...

Let's not forget how helpless he felt when he became a hostage. Japanese citizens treating him quite cruelly. Which may have furthered his PTSD/CPTSD if he did develope it.

*nods*
And yeah, his Geass type also says a lot.

[Betteroffer]

I honestly wouldn't say that Marianne's murder and his subsequent exile were the kick starters for taking the path of carnage, as he was apparently able to develop a genuinely happy friendship with Suzaku. I believe that there is a chance that Lelouch could have put everything behind him with time if Britannia hadn't attacked Japan, especially while he and Nunally were still there as it creates the idea that they weren't sent there as bargaining tools, but as a bluff.

As for his Geass, there is a theory that rather than a desire for control, it was actually born from a desire for others to help him and for him to not be alone. He vaguely implied this to Suzaku in Turn 25 when he mentions that Geass are like wishes.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

I honestly wouldn't say that Marianne's murder and his subsequent exile were the kick starters for taking the path of carnage, as he was apparently able to develop a genuinely happy friendship with Suzaku. I believe that there is a chance that Lelouch could have put everything behind him with time if Britannia hadn't attacked Japan, especially while he and Nunally were still there as it creates the idea that they weren't sent there as bargaining tools, but as a bluff.

Yes, if Britannia hadn't invaded, Lelouch might have been able to leave the past be. The Sound Dramas show that he already had issues (not taking the food from the Kururugi family and letting himself get beat up just to prove that he and Nunnally are "alive", something that the Emperor denied) and was extremely bitter, but once he and Suzaku got closer, he seemed happy enough.
Since Britannia invaded, though, things just came together.

As for his Geass, there is a theory that rather than a desire for control, it was actually born from a desire for others to help him and for him to not be alone. He vaguely implied this to Suzaku in Turn 25 when he mentions that Geass are like wishes.

Hum, this is the first time I hear this.
And it doesn't really make sense to me. In the first few episodes, it becomes very clear that Lelouch felt trapped and powerless at Ashford, and even more so in the scene where he snaps for a few seconds and just kills all those soldiers with a maniac grin on his face.
Even if he didn't want to be alone, it says a lot that his answer to that is basically having absolute control of those around him.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Hum, this is the first time I hear this.
And it doesn't really make sense to me. In the first few episodes, it becomes very clear that Lelouch felt trapped and powerless at Ashford, and even more so in the scene where he snaps for a few seconds and just kills all those soldiers with a maniac grin on his face.

Actually, it makes perfect sense if you consider how Geass powers work. C.C. wanted to be loved and yet, rather than receiving a Geass that manipulated causality into placing her and others into situations where they can get to know her and fall in love with her of their own volition (as much as a person's heart ever gives them a choice), she instead receives a Geass that mindrapes people into becoming her adoring servants, akin to how Lelouch began using his Geass when he took over Britannia.

Mao presumably wanted to understand people so he could figure out what to do to make them like him. His Geass allowed him to probe into a person's deepest and most private and shameful secrets. Rolo likely wanted to cling to the few happy moments in his life and he got a Geass that froze people like dolls while carrying the risk of killing him with every use.

Geass in general seems to have something of a "Monkey's Paw" air about it with the power granting the person a distorted or otherwise costly version of their wish. With this in mind, the idea of someone who feels overwhelmed and alone and wants help receiving the power to make people help them is only natural.

Yes, Lelouch felt trapped and powerless in Ashford. He also, as you mentioned, feared that his friends would abandon him if they learned the truth, and yet he never uses his Geass on them with an order like "don't abandon me."

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Even if he didn't want to be alone, it says a lot that his answer to that is basically having absolute control of those around him.

And yet he never uses it on those he calls friends unless under exceptional duress, and even then only for (what he thinks is) their own good. He still endures Milly's insane ideas and never even suggests that he might want to Geass her to tone things down, or at least not involve him and Nunally, he erases Shirley's mind rather than kill her even though he thinks his Geass may have a duration limit, and tells Suzaku to "Live" rather than to merely save him, hand over the Lancelot, or obey him, and even then he is riddled with guilt over it.

[darkdarkdark]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

Yes, Lelouch felt trapped and powerless in Ashford. He also, as you mentioned, feared that his friends would abandon him if they learned the truth, and yet he never uses his Geass on them with an order like "don't abandon me."

Yes, Lelouch felt anxiety while he was in Ashford, probably because he could be doing better things. Ordinary school student lives didn't suit Lelouch. However, he did like his friends. No matter what, he didn't want to involve them.

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

And yet he never uses it on those he calls friends unless under exceptional duress, and even then only for (what he thinks is) their own good. He still endures Milly's insane ideas and never even suggests that he might want to Geass her to tone things down, or at least not involve him and Nunally, he erases Shirley's mind rather than kill her even though he thinks his Geass may have a duration limit, and tells Suzaku to "Live" rather than to merely save him, hand over the Lancelot, or obey him, and even then he is riddled with guilt over it.

Lelouch isn't a bad character necessarily. He values friendships, and wants to keep those who are close to him. There would be no need to use his Geass on Milly anyway, he only uses it to benefit or conceal Zero. Changing Milly would be a waste, and he was probably saving it in case something came up in the future. Suzaku was his best friend. They had quite a bond in the past, so there was no way he would use his Geass like that.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by darkdarkdark

Yes, Lelouch felt anxiety while he was in Ashford, probably because he could be doing better things.

C.C. also calls him a "prisoner" in a Sound Drama, and he feared that Ashford's support wouldn't last too much longer.

Ordinary school student lives didn't suit Lelouch. However, he did like his friends. No matter what, he didn't want to involve them.

Agreed.


I'm not sure what Lelouch not using his Geass on his friends is supposed to prove in this context. I never said he would, just that if his Geass was aimed and preventing him from becoming lonely - something I'm still not convinced of -, it says a lot that this is how his subconsciousness wanted to solve the problem.
Lelouch didn't need to use his Geass on Milly to ensure his and Nunnally's safety, since if the Ashfords had decided to cut off their support, he'd still have had that power to do something about it. More importantly, he had his rebellion, and wanted to create a world where they would not need that support any more.
And anyway, Milly and his other friends were not the ones he feared. He just notes that if Ashford dropped them, they would be on their own again, powerless - I agree he most likely didn't want to be lonely, but it wasn't his main concern. His main concern was that it felt like he and Nunnally were constantly threatened, by their family as well as the Ashfords. And Nunnally, too, would have lost her friends if something had happened - or at least, that's what Lelouch believed.

[Betteroffer]

I meant lonely in the sense that he didn't want to have to shoulder everything by himself. He wanted to be able to ask for help and to rely on others, but the various circumstances in his life made this difficult or impossible.

[Sol Falling]

It's a bit weird to think of Lelouch as emotionally vulnerable or weak like that, but in light of that view of him Shirley's death would seem even more poignant and tragic. I always saw Lelouch's bitterness and destructive spirit as something that signified Lelouch had given up on not shouldering everything--because the world wouldn't let him keep anything anyway, there was no point in trying to cling onto or protect things. Lelouch was never insane or traumatized (in terms of being unable to control himself/his emotions) in my view--the reason for his destructive actions was always simply despair. However, considering how strongly Lelouch acted out that bitterness and spirit of destruction, I suppose that might indeed reflect, underneath it all, a strong lingering wish that it wasn't so.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

I meant lonely in the sense that he didn't want to have to shoulder everything by himself. He wanted to be able to ask for help and to rely on others, but the various circumstances in his life made this difficult or impossible.

With that, I can agree, although I think he was not aware of that most of the time, and that it was not the main reason for his Geass, as he is shown to absolute loathe the feeling of being trapped and powerless.

The only person Lelouch could rely on was Suzaku, whose beliefs did not coincide with his, and who had a whole bunch of issues himself.
By the way, I think it's interesting that Lelouch needs to be in control to be comfortable, while the same thing makes Suzaku so uneasy that he sticks to the rules at any cost. And yet, when they work together, they are not so much commander and subordinate/Emperor and Knight as they are genuine partners who support and complete each other.


@Sol Falling:
I can agree with that, too, except maybe the "in control of his emotions" thing. Yes, he's not a lunatic, but sometimes, it's all just too much, and there are instances where that becomes very clear. During those moments, he's really not the most psychologically stable person around.

[darkdarkdark]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

I meant lonely in the sense that he didn't want to have to shoulder everything by himself. He wanted to be able to ask for help and to rely on others, but the various circumstances in his life made this difficult or impossible.

I disagree. Lelouch doesn't like using other people, he has too much pride. He would rather do things himself, but it's a fact that he needs to use people to achieve his goals and he knows it.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by darkdarkdark

I disagree. Lelouch doesn't like using other people, he has too much pride. He would rather do things himself, but it's a fact that he needs to use people to achieve his goals and he knows it.

There is a difference between using people and being able to rely on them.
It's true that Lelouch would never ask a random stranger for help, but he is not ashamed to accept assistance from Suzaku, and he also asked and accepted advice from Shirley as well as from C.C.

He's a very complex character, and depending on the person and situation, he will handle things differently.

[darkdarkdark]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

There is a difference between using people and being able to rely on them.
It's true that Lelouch would never ask a random stranger for help, but he is not ashamed to accept assistance from Suzaku, and he also asked and accepted advice from Shirley as well as from C.C.

He's a very complex character, and depending on the person and situation, he will handle things differently.

True. I guess in the end, he also worked with Suzaku on ZR.

[HollowScar]

Hi!

I haven't been here in a long time. The interesting thing I wanted to point out is that Lelouch resembles the real life Ernesto (Che) Guevera. Even though Lelouch was traumatized at a young age, while Ernesto was moved by the injustice of poor, their lives do seem to be very similar.

1. Both of them were extremely intelligent. Ernesto was in his final year of Medical school, when he decided to explore Latin America, while Lelouch was basically an avid chess gambler, who did not have to study very hard to pass. Now, Eenesto may had to study hard, but everybody does in Medical school.

2. Both of them had been in a position where they saw injustice. In Lelouch's case, he saw it right from an early age, when his father disowned him, and his sister. This led to a growing amount of experiences which shaped him as the series went along. In Ernesto's case, his trip was eye opening, which only made him realize that there were people who were suffering out there.

3. Both of them opposed their upbringing one way or another. Lelouch, the Britannian, went against Britannia, at first for his sister, but later for the world. Ernesto was from a well off family, but went on to oppose Capitalism, even though it is what made his family prosper.

4. Both of them took the extraordinary measures to make justice happen. Note that even though Lelouch had Geass, he was still planning on fighting against Britannia. The Geass only made it faster for him to do so. In Ernesto's case, he went with the Communists, since there was no progressive taxation, or mixed economy back then.

5. Both of them had committed crimes in the name of justice, even though their actions were not justified. Lelouch killed people who came in his way. He killed his casualties, as well as innocent civilians. Ernesto killed people who he doubted, and did so without any proof required. He also was very vocal about taking action.

6. Both of them died like trash, but made changes for the future. In Lelouch's case, Britannia, and Elevens were coexisting without much trouble. In Ernesto's case, Cuba became 100% literate, higher life expectancy, where 25% of budget went to Health care, 10% to education, and nearly 100% of students went to primary school.

What do you think? I would do anything to live their lives filled with purpose, and die knowing that I tried to impact the world rather than feed myself only. However, both of them were intelligent, and may have had some form of disorder which made them crave for power, while enforcing justice. Now this may be cruel, but this is still better than appeasing with all sides, and not getting anywhere. Look at appeasement in WW2, and how it did not work with Germany.

[Arbitres]

All good points, though the similiarities are quite good.

Me and Clovis fangirl no.1 were talking about Lelouch developing PTSD. It does fit, and it could explain a good deal. Including his geass.

All good points, though you are forgetting another point that is connecting them. I'll let you all figure it out.

[HollowScar]

Well, when it comes to Lelouch, he basically planned his own death, and bring peace. He was like Jesus in a way that he had to die for the better future. With Ernesto, death was uncalled for. Even while he was about to be killed, he told his captors that he is better of alive than dead.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by HollowScar

Hi!

6. Both of them died like trash, but made changes for the future. In Lelouch's case, Britannia, and Elevens were coexisting without much trouble. In Ernesto's case, Cuba became 100% literate, higher life expectancy, where 25% of budget went to Health care, 10% to education, and nearly 100% of students went to primary school.

What do you think? I would do anything to live their lives filled with purpose, and die knowing that I tried to impact the world rather than feed myself only. However, both of them were intelligent, and may have had some form of disorder which made them crave for power, while enforcing justice. Now this may be cruel, but this is still better than appeasing with all sides, and not getting anywhere. Look at appeasement in WW2, and how it did not work with Germany.

I think Che was a murdering son of a bitch and a coward. And if he did so much good in Cuba there wouldn't be people on hunger strikes demanding the liberation of political prisoners, people whose only crime is to want basic human rights, which cubans certainly don't have.

Che helped create an Area and establish Fidel as emperor. The country is giant ghetto, pretty much like Shinjiku in the anime.

[HollowScar]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

I think Che was a murdering son of a bitch and a coward. And if he did so much good in Cuba there wouldn't be people on hunger strikes demanding the liberation of political prisoners, people whose only crime is to want basic human rights, which cubans certainly don't have.

Che helped create an Area and establish Fidel as emperor. The country is giant ghetto, pretty much like Shinjiku in the anime.

Well, both of them had to be evil, to destroy the greater evil. In Lelouch's case, it was Britannia, while in Ernesto's case, it was the evils of Capitalism. They had to be evil, in other to provoke fear, and achieve power. However, I think Ernesto lost his head with all that power, while Lelouch was still able to have some sanity, in exchange for the loss of his loved ones.

You do have to agree that Cuba has 100% literacy rates, basic needs met, access to advanced education for everyone, an end to racism and social stratification. This is very similar to the problem of Britannia to, where racism no longer prevailed, after Lelouch's death. However, one of the reason Cuba is screwed is because the United States placed a trade embargo. No one is allowed o travel to Cuba, and even Cubans are limited to travel there every year. The United States has nothing to do with Cuba, since it has no oil, power, etc.