Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

[quotee=arkangelsk]Over the years, the Vita program eventually gained a real base of her own, at the price of losing the link to Hayate. Perhaps in a few years, she won't be affected one whit if Hayate got vaped

Wrong. They mentioned it in the A's Sound Stage. The knights are tied to Hayate now. She dies, they die.[/QUOTE]

I know that they are tied to Hayate at the time of A's (heck, she instant rebuilt them). However, their link is also canonically stated to be weakening by the time of StrikerS.

[Retsoor]

Looks like Zest had to update his journal once again, the poor bastard. They really should do a spin-off on him.

[BBM]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

You're half there. She fails as a character altogether, for most of the time onscreen, she's either acting cute or helpless.

She is about 5 yo...... what do you expect?

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

And you misunderstood, you don't need someone whiny and helpless to make a good impact. It could be Hayate in that situation and it could still have that same effect or better. It's all about the build-up.

The helpless child card is a cheap way for cheap drama.

They played that card before in season 1 with the Fate/Precia and in A's with Hayate, and now it's a cheap way for cheap drama?

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Training scenes before episode 10?

3... 3.5 if you count the start of the 10th episode. I've already complained about the Teana emo scene back then... Another reason why I dislike Stars.

You see, before episode 10, it was the introduction. We ALL knew there was going to be training episodes, so most of us were cool with that. A good part of 2-3 episodes? Fine. All the talking? It's the introduction to a new world 10 years into the future... And besides, some of them were interesting...

I'll have to wait to get home re-check 1-10 before I can point out a few episodes which I consider changable. I'll get back on this later.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

You say Vivio came much later... Thats the problem isn't it? During introductions? Sure fine... But in the middle of the season and having to make more 'peaceful' days just to show off her and nanoha and Fate? Now that's a sin.

This I agree with. One of the main errors made with Vivio was introducing her halfway. Had they introduced her far closer to the start (say, during the first mission?) the pacing could have been much smoother. And they easilly could have left Fate out of the Vivio equotation. She adds nothing anyway.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

You're half there. She fails as a character altogether, for most of the time onscreen, she's either acting cute or helpless.

Can't really disagree with the second half, however I don't concider that 'failing as a character'

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Because here's the thing, both of them had shown interesting potential in the first half of the series, WAY LONG before Vivio. Why get rid of the ones with good potential for someone with forced potential?

Meh, I agree that they really shouldn't have dropped those like they did. The way Erio and Caro were going 'Lu-chan' after knowing her name for like... five seconds made me go

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

If you ask me why I like Erio or Lutecia, I could point out their personlity (Erio's chivalry and Lutecia's seriousness), their actions.

Vivio? The number one reply is tied between looking plain cute, and fueling NxF

Actually, it's very easy to point out Vivio's personallity, and probably the reason why I like her. Her Innocence.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by arkangelsk

However, their link is also canonically stated to be weakening by the time of StrikerS.

Do you think they'll go independent when the link is gone? No, once that link is gone, they're dead.

Originally Posted by keroko

One of the main errors made with Vivio was introducing her halfway. Had they introduced her far closer to the start (say, during the first mission?) the pacing could have been much smoother.

I don't think they could have introduced Vivio too much earlier. If they did, they would have had Scaglietti raid RF6HQ earlier than he actually did. If they weren't all tied down like in eps16-17, any such assault would likely have failed. Worse, it would alert RF6 to Vivio's importance, making a second raid even harder.

I'll have to wait to get home re-check 1-10 before I can point out a few episodes which I consider changable.

I've long been thinking about how to compress the existing material, so that new material can be added to give the impression of progress in StrikerS. What I have so far for the first 12 eps is:
Compress eps 1-2 into one ep. If possible, feature a real mission instead of a ranking test for Tia and Subaru. Tack on Erio and Caro's meeting at the end.
Compress eps 2-4 into one ep. RF6's activation, the mission breifing Hayate and Fate gave to the GC higher-ups should instead have been given to the Forwards. A short training scenario. The Forwards getting their real Devices.
Ep 5 becomes ep3. Due to the amount of material presented in (the original) eps 3 and 4, it may be neccessary to put some of that into this ep instead. In that case, split the train battle between this and the next ep.
Ep6 becomes the second half of ep4. Spliting becomes a good idea when you consider that the most important parts of ep6 (joint investigations with the 108th, revealing Scaglietti, Lutecia and Zest) amount to less than half an episode.
Shorten ep7. Instead of uselessly guarding an auction "just in case" drones show up, let's have something important at the place that both Scaglietti and RF6 want. Originally, I didn't want it to be a Relic because I didn't want Lutecia and Zest to go all out yet. But now that I think about it, that would be the perfect combat debut for them. In addition, something could happen in the battle could spark Tia's desire to get stronger at all cost. After the battle, she and Subaru start their special training. That leads to...
Compress eps 8-9 into ep 6. Can go straight into the mock battle at this point, followed by the explaination. Don't even need the useless diversion of an aerial battle.
Change the nature of eps 10-11. Instead of going on a vacation and coincidentally bumping into Vivio, let's try something more plausible. RF6's joint investigation with the 108th has discovered someone smuggling something with a Relic-like signature. RF6 is en-route to investigate when the 108th's sensors report the truck with the signature has exploded. RF6 arrives at the site and discover drone and lifepod wreckage and drag marks leading away. They find Vivo, the Relics and Lutecia.
Ep 12 becomes ep 8. Probably can run it without any changes.
There you go, half the series with 4 episodes of material removed and still keeping the important points.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by BBM

She is about 5 yo...... what do you expect?

I expect less attention then, especially if everything she does is more or less the same... And she's not just a 5 year old. With all this so call power of the kings, you would think they could have her do something interesting once in awhile...

Doesn't have to be flashy... And drawing and helping out around the house doesn't count as well.

Originally Posted by Keroko

They played that card before in season 1 with the Fate/Precia and in A's with Hayate, and now it's a cheap way for cheap drama?

This is different, she is completely helpless. Fate had her powers and she uses them, Hayate can still cook, cosp- design her Knight's barrier jacket...

They could still do something.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Can't really disagree with the second half, however I don't concider that 'failing as a character'

Very well, I was harsh myself.

It makes her a very plain character.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Actually, it's very easy to point out Vivio's personallity, and probably the reason why I like her. Her Innocence.

Yes maybe, but it's not the number one answer most of her fans would give isn't it.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Amusing little tidbit: I just did a small re-check, and there are a mere total of four, four, episodes in which Vivio is around to act as extreme NXF service. After that, she gets captured and the whole Cradle thing starts. Out of those four episodes, the only really useless scenes are 3 in episode 14, 3 in episode 15 and 2 in episode 16.

That's 8 scenes spread over 26 episodes!

Personally, I simply think that those who did not like the slow pacing of StrikerS and the waste of scenes on various subjects needed something to blame. Vivio, despite being only one gear in the general problem, proved to be one, and everyone else pretty much jumped the blame-Vivio bandwagon.

Hmm your are right in a way,some talking merely talking/explaining should be saved for the manga.And the Erio/Caro Emo scene should replace one of the scenes.I wanna to see how Fate is as a guardian of 2 children. And maybe more Erio,Caro vs Lutecia Fights.

[Chaos2Frozen]

The Vivio blame is of course refering to the second half of the season, where things are suppose to get serious/deep/important, but just failed in that aspect. I myself don't have a problem with how they pace the first half, Except for the Teana thingy.

So that's 8 scenes over the course of 3 or so episodes, which are before the intense "Shit-Hits-The-Fan" 2 episodes of 16 and 17.

Those 8 scenes had taken away the flow for anything to do with Team Lightning and Team Lutecia... Hayate, and probably abit on the Saint Church and Jail. Because once the shit hits the fan, there is no time for build ups like those.

If I were to pin more blames, it would also be on Subaru and Teana for hogging Forward's development.

[Ultima_Rasengan05]

Since Teana will be most likely driving Vice's bike towards the Cradle to save the aces, um...can Vice's bike even have the magical ability to fly??
Unless Teana combos it with Subaru's Wing Road and uses the bike to travel on it...but I don't see how the bike will come in handy though... Unless the bike is the counter measure of faster travel out of the Cradle due to the AMF defenses, since Subaru's Wing Road will most likely disappear once they reach inside...

Edit: If Chrono doesn't make it on time and Hayate is too "tired" (or more likely being shafted from finishing off the Cradle), then the Asura will take care of it.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Ultima_Rasengan05

Edit: If Chrono doesn't make it on time and Hayate is too "tired" (or more likely being shafted from finishing off the Cradle), then the Asura will take care of it.

Oh yeah, I've completely forgotten about them Someone has to destroy the Asura as well

[Ultima_Rasengan05]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Oh yeah, I've completely forgotten about them Someone has to destroy the Asura as well

hahaha...destroy the Asura? And let Hayate finish off the Cradle herself?...sounds reasonable...
(Probably the Cradle might do that though...)

[Tormenk]

No idea where the Asura is now, the ship might hiding somewhere for all we know

But why the Asura? It's pretty harmless, aside from it's big magic cannon.

I'm in favor of the fleet turning up to finish off the Cradle. At least let the fleet and Chrono do something.

[Ultima_Rasengan05]

Chrono gets off his butt and goes off to freeze the Cradle in place and then orders his fleet to finish it off with canon blasts from each ship. A ship as big as Cradle and the fleet still misses all of its shots...pretty embarrassing.

Atleast Chrono gets his "SUPA KURONO TAIMU" in StrikerS!

[BBM]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

I expect less attention then, especially if everything she does is more or less the same... And she's not just a 5 year old. With all this so call power of the kings, you would think they could have her do something interesting once in awhile...

The only thing I can say about that, is that the vivio scenes should have been spead out more.
And we really can't expect much from her powers for has hardly any consious control over them.

Those 8 scenes had taken away the flow for anything to do with Team Lightning and Team Lutecia...

Couldn't be avoided. They would go to the background even without Vivio.

Yes maybe, but it's not the number one answer most of her fans would give isn't it.

She is hyper-moe for both the viewer and the characters. Everyone wants to protect her, except for the insane characters.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Do you think they'll go independent when the link is gone? No, once that link is gone, they're dead.



I don't think they could have introduced Vivio too much earlier. If they did, they would have had Scaglietti raid RF6HQ earlier than he actually did. If they weren't all tied down like in eps16-17, any such assault would likely have failed. Worse, it would alert RF6 to Vivio's importance, making a second raid even harder.



I've long been thinking about how to compress the existing material, so that new material can be added to give the impression of progress in StrikerS. What I have so far for the first 12 eps is:
Compress eps 1-2 into one ep. If possible, feature a real mission instead of a ranking test for Tia and Subaru. Tack on Erio and Caro's meeting at the end.
Compress eps 2-4 into one ep. RF6's activation, the mission breifing Hayate and Fate gave to the GC higher-ups should instead have been given to the Forwards. A short training scenario. The Forwards getting their real Devices.
Ep 5 becomes ep3. Due to the amount of material presented in (the original) eps 3 and 4, it may be neccessary to put some of that into this ep instead. In that case, split the train battle between this and the next ep.
Ep6 becomes the second half of ep4. Spliting becomes a good idea when you consider that the most important parts of ep6 (joint investigations with the 108th, revealing Scaglietti, Lutecia and Zest) amount to less than half an episode.
Shorten ep7. Instead of uselessly guarding an auction "just in case" drones show up, let's have something important at the place that both Scaglietti and RF6 want. Originally, I didn't want it to be a Relic because I didn't want Lutecia and Zest to go all out yet. But now that I think about it, that would be the perfect combat debut for them. In addition, something could happen in the battle could spark Tia's desire to get stronger at all cost. After the battle, she and Subaru start their special training. That leads to...
Compress eps 8-9 into ep 6. Can go straight into the mock battle at this point, followed by the explaination. Don't even need the useless diversion of an aerial battle.
Change the nature of eps 10-11. Instead of going on a vacation and coincidentally bumping into Vivio, let's try something more plausible. RF6's joint investigation with the 108th has discovered someone smuggling something with a Relic-like signature. RF6 is en-route to investigate when the 108th's sensors report the truck with the signature has exploded. RF6 arrives at the site and discover drone and lifepod wreckage and drag marks leading away. They find Vivo, the Relics and Lutecia.
Ep 12 becomes ep 8. Probably can run it without any changes.
There you go, half the series with 4 episodes of material removed and still keeping the important points.

Yes! this is how it should have went!

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by BBM

The only thing I can say about that, is that the vivio scenes should have been spead out more.
And we really can't expect much from her powers for has hardly any consious control over them.

What we needed was new refreshing Vivio scenes, why the hell do we need to be reminded how much Nanoha loves Vivio and vice verse?

And her powers were practically non-existence till all of a sudden in the last few episodes, but I'm not that concerned about it.

Originally Posted by BBM

Couldn't be avoided. They would go to the background even without Vivio.

No, they were on a good track to development with what Erio and Caro talked about in episode 10, as well as Caro's flashback history in episode 5... AND they had just made Lutecia face-to-face for the first time.

It was a perfect chance to development them all.

Originally Posted by BBM

She is hyper-moe for both the viewer and the characters. Everyone wants to protect her, except for the insane characters.

I'm insane, right here.

Now that's out of the way, You're saying that she greatest value is fanservice?

That is like the first ever character in the Nanoha series. Promoting fanservice is her existence.

[Fabien]

Originally Posted by Keroko

They played that card before in season 1 with the Fate/Precia and in A's with Hayate, and now it's a cheap way for cheap drama?

At least Fate and Hayate could do something, and ultimately managed to have a positive role.
Replace Vivio with a dog or a cat, StrikerS wouldn't change that much.

[Fabien]

Originally Posted by Tormenk

But why the Asura? It's pretty harmless, aside from it's big magic cannon.

I don't think the Arc-en-Ciel is still on the Asura. I believe it was a temporary fitting, just to destroy the Book of Darkness.

[BBM]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

What we needed was new refreshing Vivio scenes, why the hell do we need to be reminded how much Nanoha loves Vivio and vice verse?

One tender/fluffy scene per episode should do nicely, for the emotional bonds to be created.

No, they were on a good track to development with what Erio and Caro talked about in episode 10, as well as Caro's flashback history in episode 5... AND they had just made Lutecia face-to-face for the first time.

It was a perfect chance to development them all.

But what did their elements add to the main plot?
Erio:Fate having a kid is nice, but they could have kept it to Caro. And for close combat the trainees already have Subaru.
Lucitia: Aka the extra, extra, enemy. Her time should have been spend on the numbers and/or Zest.

You're saying that she greatest value is fanservice?

No, she is there to add an emotional aspect to stopping the Cradle, which I find to be very important.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by BBM

One tender/fluffy scene per episode should do nicely, for the emotional bonds to be created.

Like hell. It's the same damn thing over and over around. You could have one solid moment and it'll still be as memoriable as a hundred.

This is deliberate spamming fanservice.

Originally Posted by BBM

But what did their elements add to the main plot?
Erio:Fate having a kid is nice, but they could have kept it to Caro. And for close combat the trainees already have Subaru.
Lucitia: Aka the extra, extra, enemy. Her time should have been spend on the numbers and/or Zest.

Hello? Erio is a part of Project F and was a key attention in Jail's eyes back in episode 5. Had they developed him properly it would had make sense.

Hello? Lutecia is the a Relic weapon, whatever it was back then, it sounded dangerous. AND Jail himself had talked big about her summoning powers.

Both of them caught the attention of the main villain long before a cry baby.

Originally Posted by BBM

No, she is there to add an emotional aspect to stopping the Cradle, which I find to be very important.

ANYONE could have been in that seat and you can still have that effect. You don't need a mother/daughter love.

And for that matter, the whole Cradle drama was weak.