Immrigrant's Rights

[tanuki]

Originally Posted by Vaines

Actually it's not a novel concept (apart maybe the number), as in many countries of Europe (some countries like France are trying to pass bills opposing this now, but we had it a lot) per example if one person lived in France illegally, he was by right entitled to French nationality. Simply, yes. But then again, France had a special immgration plan, it wanted to make everybody on its soil "French" integrated, not that it really happened, but at least officially

Those numbers though are a large part of the problem. Many countries could afford to be lax to some degree while illegal aliens crossed their border with the intent of illegally living and working in their country. The number of illegals crossing into the US though is on a scale which could do serious damage to most small european nations. Can anyone say their country could absorb 20 million, 30 million, or more unskilled and poorly educated illegal aliens with more coming in each day without there being a significant negative impact on their economy and society?

When illegal aliens come in to this degree they will displace the less educated, the less skilled, and the poor native citizens at the bottom of the economic ladder. Also, High School students can forget trying to find a summer job or a part time after school job to gain work experience and money...which to an extent is already the case now. Ok, so these displaced citizens will have their own reasons for protesting a situation which they believe is unfair to them. If the number of illegals coming in hits a saturation point where more are arriving to look for work than there are jobs available for them to fill, because the illegals who came before them have taken all or most of those jobs, they won't be happy and will have reason to protest about the situation being unfair. Then we get into the divisive politics of "the wheel that squeaks the loudest gets the most grease" and there will be expectations from various factions calling on government to expand the social welfare entitlement system with more government subsidized education programs, more job placement programs, more housing assistance, more food assistance, more welfare checks, a return of WPA style New Deal government work programs, and so forth.

The US isn't communist or socialist though and there will be a political and social backlash to this coming from the rich at the top to the middle class and also the upper strata of the working poor. The democratic party can only push entitlement expansion and increased social spending so far before there is a negative reaction from economic and social conservatives in government and in society. Anyone who doubts this will happen needs to carefully study the years prior to and during the time that Ronald Reagan was president, and then look at the general reasons behind why the republcan party has gained the power and influence it has in america in recent decades.

[Komataguri]

I honestly can not believe there has to be a debate over this.


It seems pretty cut and dry to me, The sheer fact that they are called ILLEGAL aliens should be the nail in the coffin.




This is almost as bad as the conversation I had on another site where someone tried to defend pedophilia.


Some things are just WRONG, they don't require debate, and anyone with enough common sense to see the forest and the trees shouldn't have a problem with it.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by Komataguri

Some things are just WRONG, they don't require debate, and anyone with enough common sense to see the forest and the trees shouldn't have a problem with it.

That's a dangerous statement. Who exactly gets to say what things are "just wrong"? There should always be a debate on issues like this. If one side is allowed to make the decision unilaterally, because it's "common sense", even if they have the best of intentions, you'll end up with tyranny.

That said, I'm in favor of tougher laws on illegal immigrants. The ironic thing is, all these mexican groups were protesting making illegal immigration a felony in the US, when it's already a felony in mexico.

[Komataguri]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

That said, I'm in favor of tougher laws on illegal immigrants. The ironic thing is, all these mexican groups were protesting making illegal immigration a felony in the US, when it's already a felony in mexico.

Case in point.

[Sazelyt]

For America and any other country that has a serious illegal-immigrant problem, in my opinion, the best way seems to be a mid-way solution, if they really want to solve (or at least take under control) this problem by satisfying both sides. Because I don't think America can stop the storm of illegal-immigrants, especially when they have such a big support inside.

What they can do: for instance, make the illegal-immigrant conditions, whatever they are, more flexible, and give the legal-immigrant right to the ones that really want and seem to be contributing to the country and community. And for the ones that fail that, push the laws to the strictest level.

[Vaines]

Originally Posted by tanuki

Those numbers though are a large part of the problem. Many countries could afford to be lax to some degree while illegal aliens crossed their border with the intent of illegally living and working in their country. The number of illegals crossing into the US though is on a scale which could do serious damage to most small european nations. Can anyone say their country could absorb 20 million, 30 million, or more unskilled and poorly educated illegal aliens with more coming in each day without there being a significant negative impact on their economy and society?

You have to put things into proportion rather than numbers. You have 20/30 million illegals in a 260 millions population. I live in a country with 10 million people. I think that the number is big also because your country is big. It would mean 1 million and some more in my country.

[HoboGod]

Originally Posted by Komataguri

Yes, because they would just DIE if you didn't get across that border.

Nor would a family die without a loaf of bread, but some people don't want their children to eat dirt for the rest of their lives.

[tanuki]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

That said, I'm in favor of tougher laws on illegal immigrants. The ironic thing is, all these mexican groups were protesting making illegal immigration a felony in the US, when it's already a felony in mexico.

Those protesting in Mexico are probably concerned that illegal aliens from Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador, etc., might be blocked from entering the US and remaining in Mexico....and they most definitely do not want them.

For that matter the government in Mexico doesn't want to seriously try and stop their own citizens from crossing the border into the US because then, perish the thought, that would prevent them from dumping their excess idle workers onto the US. If they stay in Mexico, then these unhappy campers would have to turn to the mexican government for assistance. It's not hard to see why the government and more affluent citizens there would view this as a bad thing.

[tanuki]

Originally Posted by Vaines

You have to put things into proportion rather than numbers. You have 20/30 million illegals in a 260 millions population. I live in a country with 10 million people. I think that the number is big also because your country is big. It would mean 1 million and some more in my country.

This isn't a question of adjusting land mass, population scale, and ratios. That just explains why the US has been fortunate so far. But do a direct physical substitution on a world atlas of any european country with the US and give that european country a border with Mexico. 20-30+ illegal aliens have come across that european nations border with Mexico looking for economic salvation, more are coming in each day. Would this do severe economic and social damage to that european country? Could that country afford to continually take in more illegal aliens indefinitely? What happens to that european country foreshadows what could one day happen to the US if the problem is allowed to indefinitely continue.

[Dhomochevsky]

We dont need a fantasy mexicanborder in Europe, we have enough of our own illegals here. Coming in from northern-africa to italy and spain with boats, or over land out of the ex-soviet countrys in the east into germany.

That said, I dont see 20-30 million illegals in a 230 million people country as such a big problem. As long as they try to blend in that is.
But the problems you have right now would also worry me. Forming a solid group of protesters, not accepting english as their new language ... doesnt sound like they are willing to immigrate at all, more like colonisation.

To conclude it, from my point of view its not the large number of new inhabitants (legal or not) thats the problem, but their behavior towards your country and them forming a solid block in your society without really trying to fit in.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

We dont need a fantasy mexicanborder in Europe, we have enough of our own illegals here. Coming in from northern-africa to italy and spain with boats, or over land out of the ex-soviet countrys in the east into germany.

That said, I dont see 20-30 million illegals in a 230 million people country as such a big problem. As long as they try to blend in that is.
But the problems you have right now would also worry me. Forming a solid group of protesters, not accepting english as their new language ... doesnt sound like they are willing to immigrate at all, more like colonisation.

To conclude it, from my point of view its not the large number of new inhabitants (legal or not) thats the problem, but their behavior towards your country and them forming a solid block in your society without really trying to fit in.

In Europe, in many countries, getting the immigrant status should be rather easy, although I don't know if they change their laws. For instance, Germany and some other European countries were easily fooled by the Kurdish people who claim their lives are in danger in my home-country. Was that true? Of course, not. It is a good trick to obtain a legal status. It would have been really interesting to see, Europe sharing borders with the mid-and-southern American countries (or just remove the Mediterranean see and combine north of Africa with south Europe, and have quite a large border to watch out for).

And the number you are talking about is nearly 10 percent. For Germany, think of ~8 million illegal immigrants, in addition to the legal ones you have. If that legal portion corresponds to 8 million(assumption), double the number, and you see quite a jump in the number of neo-nazis, home (with people inside) burnings in that country. Also, you have quite a small population of immigrants (8 million - again assumption - vs. 30 million). Being that small, how much they have tried to blend in your country and traditions?

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

That said, I dont see 20-30 million illegals in a 230 million people country as such a big problem. As long as they try to blend in that is.
But the problems you have right now would also worry me. Forming a solid group of protesters, not accepting english as their new language ... doesnt sound like they are willing to immigrate at all, more like colonisation.

To conclude it, from my point of view its not the large number of new inhabitants (legal or not) thats the problem, but their behavior towards your country and them forming a solid block in your society without really trying to fit in.

20-30 million is a big number no mater you slice it. Add ot it is the fact that the 20-30 million all more or less stay in just a few states along the border putting a big strain on the local infastructure.

The US can only do only so much to help another country economically when those countries are rift with corruption and is politically unstable. Until those countries clean themselves up politically they won't attract much the kind foreign investments that is going to help. And these countries won't change until the people demand change and if the people in those countries leave for the US who is going to demand changes?

[Roopoo]

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

That said, I dont see 20-30 million illegals in a 230 million people country as such a big problem. As long as they try to blend in that is.

That's approximately 10% of the population. So that 1 in every 10 people you meet is an illegal. Sounds a lot to me.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Roopoo

That's approximately 10% of the population. So that 1 in every 10 people you meet is an illegal. Sounds a lot to me.

I don’t think the percentage is a lot (although the absolut number is), we have the same problem of Illegal immigrants, only counting those who are from Haiti, the total Illegal Haitians population should be more than 8% of the total population, of course this number are not official, because it is impossible to measure correctly the number of Illegal immigrants you have in your country, so I guess the number for this country, including those from other countries (we have from others like Germany, Italy, China, etc) should Jump from 8% to more than 10%, we are talking that this country has around 15 Million Habitants.

[Roopoo]

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Rurik

we have the same problem of Illegal immigrants, only counting those who are from Haiti, the total Illegal Haitians population should be more than 8% of the total population, of course this number are not official, because it is impossible to measure correctly the number of Illegal immigrants you have in your country,

Yes I hadn't thought of that. How does a country know how many illegal immigrants it has? It's not as though there are records. I guess it is based on educated guesswork or something. I am sure someone will enlighten us

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Roopoo

Yes I hadn't thought of that. How does a country know how many illegal immigrants it has? It's not as though there are records. I guess it is based on educated guesswork or something. I am sure someone will enlighten us

That’s the power of Statistics and probabilities, by using a small universe in the entire population you can have an idea if an approximate number. If I count 10 illegal immigrants around a population of 1000, then its means that for 14 Millions they should be around 1.4 million illegal, taking in account margin of errors.

Also they use for calculations the number of people deported back to their country, and such. It will not be an exact number, or it can be wrong by a margin of 1 or 2 %, but the number is good enough.

[Dhomochevsky]

You seem to misunderstood my post as "we in europe dont have an immigration problem". I think I wrote the opposite: We, too, have that problem, so i can kind of relate to yours. And yes, its easier to get into europe legally and harder to live here illegal. On the other side, we have strong social welfare systems (especially germany), so legal immigrants are a REALLY big burden on us.
And we DO have 9% foreigners in germany (legal (+ illegal?), but as I said, the legal ones cost us more money, if theyre uneducated). Add those who got a german passport (every child thats born here for example) and youll easily get to 10%.
Its more or less the same for the other wealthy EU states.

But still, there wouldnt be a problem with that. As long as immigrants try to fit in, they should always be welcome. Of course, thats not working to well here and as I read in your posts it doesnt work in the US . Thats why I said, the main problem I see is with the "colonisation-like" immigrating, not with the sheer number.

[tanuki]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

20-30 million is a big number no mater you slice it. Add ot it is the fact that the 20-30 million all more or less stay in just a few states along the border putting a big strain on the local infastructure.

The US can only do only so much to help another country economically when those countries are rift with corruption and is politically unstable. Until those countries clean themselves up politically they won't attract much the kind foreign investments that is going to help. And these countries won't change until the people demand change and if the people in those countries leave for the US who is going to demand changes?

What the US has allowed to happen doesn't promote social and economic change in other countries. It just gives the government in Mexico and Central American countries a cheap and expedient solution to some of their social and economic problems...pass the excess poor idle workers they have and the economic burden of helping them off onto the Americans and let them deal with it. Some of these foreign governments could do a lot to help their own situation just by offering free public information on birth control and providing free condoms to try and gradually reduce their population down over a span of generations. That would also help to reduce the spread of HIV/AIDS in their countries.

[Cal-Reflector]

A few points to add:

Accepting Illegal immigrants as citizens is often spoken as having economic benefits to the US in several folds:

1)They serve as consumers and bolster spending to local businesses

2)They'll start paying more taxes than the amount they take out on social support infrastructure.

3)They take up low-paying jobs and keep prices lower than they would for several vital sectors of the economy, including services, agriculture, and construction.

Now, 3) is definitely true. Illegal immigrants are a vital source of labor and the impact on prices for consumers would be big if this source of labor were lost. 1) and 2) however, particularly 2), fail as benefits illegal immigrants bring upon closer examination.

1) fails because logically since everyone is a consumer in society, what they bring is not a distinctive benefit that sets them apart, as opposed to 3). Moreover many billions of dollars are sent by expatriots who've made it to the US back to their families back in Mexico, constituting a net outflow of currency.

2) fails because, as illegal immigrants take up the low paying jobs, they are exempt from paying income taxes by the US progressive tax bracket, falling in the lowest bracket. With the exception of the illegal immigrant who ends up making $50,000+ a year (and there are quite cases like these as well), the grand majority of naturalized illegal immigrants will not pay taxes.

The picture is thus gray, and one must try to weigh the costs.

[Lexander]

Originally Posted by Vaines

Did I say anything against that? No, I said that "a lot of times they live very hard lives", which is exactly the case you're showing me.

Then why mention it?
That's really not my problem. I have my own people who live hard lives.
My whole country's population is about 5 million ... and still it's less than a 1 percent chance to win a green card for anyone who enters the green card lottery.
The ratio of illegals here to legals from my country is insane.
Why should I be overjoyed that these people who cheat the system get the opportunity that higher qualified people I have in mind don't.

I honestly don't think that most US companies placed elsewhere in the poorer world send more money out to the people in those poorer countries than in the US. For several reasons, people there usually have lower salaries, etc.

Firstly ... it's all relative. 200 bucks a month is a salary to get by over there, but a trip to a grocery store here.
You still offer decent jobs over there, with minimal costs to keeping the company alive in the U.S. to keep offering these job.

I never said don't let your dad have a chance. I said that it would be better for all those countries' economies if the educated people there didn't systematically go elsewhere, like to the US. Because as long as everybody does that, those countries will remain poor. You can give them all the financing you want, they won't have the minds or the infrastructure to build.

That just shows how optimistic and uninformed you are about these poor countries.
Yes you ARE saying don't let my dad have a chance, because that's what would have happend if he stayed there.

Why is that so hard to understand that something is better than NOTHING!

It would be like trying to swim in a pool with no water.

You can quote me again and give me all this bullshit about how my country's ifrastucture has better use for my dad, when I come from my country and know exactly how much use my country has for guys like my dad.
Have you lived there ? Do you know how things work there ?

There is a reaosn why people systematically leave!

Our country doesn't have assembly houses, even if we got the money to build these circuit boards we don't have facillities that would do it cheap enough for a starting business.

NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN.
NO INVESTORS ... NO BUSINESS.
NO ASSEMBLY HOUSES ... NO PRODUCT.

No money or technology means you have to rely on the U.S.

Poor countries like mine don't have the basic services you need to get started. Even if you find an investor you may not have the facillites. If you find a facility you may not find an investor.

When you figure out how to get an American semiconductor company interested in giving a good deal to a startup oversees you come talk to me and I might consider the notion that my dad would've had a chance otherwise.

It's not even the government that has no interest in these countries ... it's the corporations.
The idea is to become rich and become the U.S. company interested in offering service.

It's a realistic aproach, because it's not America's fault or problem that you used to live in a shithole.

"I'm going to force myself into my neighbor's bigger house because people have a right to live anywhere they want and he got that house from his family!"

I'm not sure everybody ends up as a winner (see some of the reasons above). I never said that there shouldn't be more legal immigrants to the US (damn I don't see how people can see things I didn't say in my words...) but that it would be better for the poorer countries and their development (which in turn means more markets for the US companies -among others- in the end) if the legal immigration in the US didn't just take the most educated people out of those countries and blocked the poorest ones.

The US isn't a charity. They want something in return.

Legal immigrants are making more money here than they could ever hope of making. With that money some of them help their country out, either by moving back and starting something there or branching off in the home country.

So really the U.S. is trying to block out people who would stay poor and useless to the U.S. and to the home country.

How much money is a guy picking apples going to donate to a University in his homeland? NUTTA!
If there weren't so many people able to pick apples already the job would be higher paying.

Now, I hope I've made myself clearer to everyone. And Lexander, I'm sure you've gone through hardships, but several people like you have generalised their examples of hardships through legal immigration and made it the reason why illegal immigrants shouldn't be here and "have it easier". I don't think they have it easier.

Simple logic, if it's not easier then why are they here?