[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[UsagiTenpura]

What? But Battler DID come back.
He's there in every arcs.

After Arc 6's conversation between Jessica and Kyrie, I have the feeling that Shannon and Battler's relation was sorta as Kyrie described. Love was nutured but Shannon never harvested it. Possibly because even if Battler seemingly did hit on her she knew she wasn't the kind of girls Battler would like.

[Jan-Poo]

This is a pretty good job you made Judoh. George is an interesting candidate culprit but there are a few problems I see. But first let me show a few other hints that you might have missed:

......Right now, I can understand very well. .........If I thought that I could revive Shannon using black magic, .....I'd immediately become the next owner of this room and start researching...

Yet another hint that George wouldn't think twice about delving into the occult.

there is then another suspicious thing George did in EP1 when everyone was locked in Kinzo's study:

George-aniki gazed through a gap in the closed curtains by the window, looking down at the courtyard and the mansion that surrounded it. ......I didn't know whether he was checking to see if a suspicious shadow would become visible through the window, ...or whether he was wondering to himself about something.

It is totally Ryukishi's style to leave a hint about someone performing some action and then quickly cover it up by making the narrator give his "harmless" explanation.
But honestly this explanation makes no sense. Checking a suspicious shadow? And do you need to look outside to wonder about something? Exactly what was George looking at?

A few months ago I speculated that this could be a hint that George was giving signals to his accomplice outside. We know that the windows from Kinzo's study face the internal courtyard, so it's not like there was any landscape to see. But there could have been someone down there.

Another hint could be the "without love it can't be seen". From ep6 we learned that this is Okonogi's catchphrase. This is way too suspicious. How exactly happened that someone who's totally unrelated to the closed circle has as a catchphrase the main theme of Beatrice's game?

There doesn't seem to be any possible connection between Beatrice and Okonogi, unless the missing link is George himself. Having worked under Okonogi, George most likely heard that sentence from him, even before he could have reasonably heard it from Shannon. And Shannon is the only person among the "18" that ever used that sentence. So the chances that George passed that catchphrase from Okonogi to Shannon are quite high.


Now for the problems...

1) I don't think we can so easily accept that George would be accepted as the new master by the servants. That hint Judoh showed about George commanding Shannon doesn't cut it quite well. There is a high chance that that was just "love talk" and Shannon just pretended to accept the order because she's furniture. We know that Shannon doesn't actually believe herself to be furniture and has a rebellious nature. So her furniture complex isn't strong enough to make her commit murder.
This is even more true for Kumasawa, who doesn't have furniture complex at all. And you also need to have Nanjo in the picture for the mastermind's plan to work, but how exactly George could command Nanjo? Genji and Kanon never gave any sign to be particularly respectful toward George.
In the end we need a better explanation as to how George could get them to work for him. They aren't robots, they are not bound to the second law of robotic.
Actually if they were robots the first law would be quite a problem... but I digress...

2) George's motive is weak. It's as weak as Shannon's supposed motive if not even less. None of the things Judoh mentioned are reasonable to enough to make "mass murder" an intelligent option.

We also have a clear statement in EP6 where George claims he doesn't have any intention of reaching a happiness in some kind of otherworld, he seeks happiness in the real world, he plans to have a lot of babies and grandchildren. So George is definitely not the kind of guy that would want to kill himself. So if George is the culprit, we necessarily need to think that he has a plan to escape with Shannon.
But if that was his purpose, why he had to kill everyone? Why he couldn't simply escape? No matter how I look at it, it's overkill (literally...). He just had to fake his own death and Shannon's death at max. And even that wasn't totally necessary.

[UsagiTenpura]

In a way it feels like we're dealing with two types of culprit.

The explosion killer. Doesn't even need to be on the island, or could know where to potentially hide. It's a certain way to kill and contains far less risk then murdering everyone one by one.

The epitaph killer(s). If a single person is behind these I'd be willing to think of it as some sort of suicidal murder. These murders are too insane to be in any ways the work of a mastermind. Unless of course the mastermind of the explosion sends in/manipulates a desperate epitaph killer confusing the issue.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Now for the problems...

1) I don't think we can so easily accept that George would be accepted as the new master by the servants. That hint Judoh showed about George commanding Shannon doesn't cut it quite well. There is a high chance that that was just "love talk" and Shannon just pretended to accept the order because she's furniture. We know that Shannon doesn't actually believe herself to be furniture and has a rebellious nature. So her furniture complex isn't strong enough to make her commit murder.

I agree that it could just be love talk. But Shannon and Kanon actually give mixed messages about this. Sometimes Shannon thinks of herself as human around Beatrice and Kanon for example in other instances she acts like she goes by that idea as a rule like Kanon does. Shannon's motive for murder is very vague. I can't imagine she'd do it for money with the way she's paid. The reason I use a furniture complex is because it's the only motive I can really find for her other than love. Quite a few people here also act like they wouldn't put it past her.

Also in game 4 Kyrie asks What are you? and Shannon and Kanon respond ""we're human"". So that's the more obvious example of this.

This is even more true for Kumasawa, who doesn't have furniture complex at all. And you also need to have Nanjo in the picture for the mastermind's plan to work, but how exactly George could command Nanjo? Genji and Kanon never gave any sign to be particularly respectful toward George.
In the end we need a better explanation as to how George could get them to work for him. They aren't robots, they are not bound to the second law of robotic.
Actually if they were robots the first law would be quite a problem... but I digress...

Well again I think we have some mixed messages here and Kumasawa doesn't have to be involved, but there are probably ways she could be. And I don't doubt he'd have some way to pay the good Doctor.

Spoiler for Ten Little Indians:

And the way Nanjo is involved in episode 3 seems to mirror And then there were none. Where the culprit gets the doctor to help him fake his death and kills the doctor later.

And while Kanon doesn't show respect toward George he seems to disrespect just about everybody including Beatrice. So I actually think that's in character for Kanon. We're dealing with a person whose very charismatic so maybe there is a way for him to get people do things unwillingly that I haven't come across yet.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

2) George's motive is weak. It's as weak as Shannon's supposed motive if not even less. None of the things Judoh mentioned are reasonable to enough to make "mass murder" an intelligent option.

Well I did my best. Why aren't the motives I suggested reasonable? Far from intelligent what kind of person could do all this and maintain their sanity?

But if that was his purpose, why he had to kill everyone? Why he couldn't simply escape? No matter how I look at it, it's overkill (literally...). He just had to fake his own death and Shannon's death at max. And even that wasn't totally necessary.

Well I think we have an explantion for that. It's Battler's sin. We don't have a definite idea of what it is, and what it's about is still shaky, but we know it's a force powerful enough to get past the logic barriers a person would normally have. That includes normally not being a mass murderer.

I realize my motives for George are probably far from complete, but I think I gave some examples on where they can start from. The why dunnit for anybody is pretty hard to find so I think I can come up with the ground it starts from, but I don't think I can make anything from it except a fuzzy picture.

[Used Can]

I think there's a blatant group of people who are suspicious. Other than George, who's already been mentioned, Kyrie and Rosa are also rather suspicious. Take EP2 for example, in which the 2 of the claimed to have met Beatrice. Now, someone could say they may have been threatened into it, but were they? There's also the scene in EP4 in which Kyrie told Battler to believe in magic and all that rubbish, along with Jessica. Other than these people, and the servants, I think Nanjo is blatant as well. I'd add Hideyoshi too, since he claimed to have seen Shannon's corpse in EP1, but I cannot help but to doubt his words.

Now, I'm sure there must be a mastermind in this group. In fact, I wouldn't know if those people even planned murder. I may suspect Kyrie and/or Hideyoshi, due to their death in EP3 being a bit ambiguous. But, other than that, it's hard to say if murder was their original plan. But, there must be someone within that group, or perhaps someone else who knew about them, used them as he/she fit, and discarded them when needed.

[Volcanic]

Originally Posted by Used Can

I may suspect Kyrie and/or Hideyoshi, due to their death in EP3 being a bit ambiguous. But, other than that, it's hard to say if murder was their original plan.

Like I said on the last page, what if it's Kyrie and Hideyoshi?

...Wait a second, you guys, let me step back and find some back-up for this crack theory

[Jan-Poo]

Well Judoh I'm not saying that your theory is wrong, I just pointed out some things that need to be worked with. You might be really onto something but there are some parts that still need to be refined.

The motive is probably the hardest thing to understand. Possibly Ryukishi doesn't intend this to be solvable by us. Not completely at least. We have been given very little elements to understand the culprit's motive.

George is indeed suspicious, I think there are strong hints about his involvement in some kind of plot. The problem is it might be just the fake epitaph murder plot, or he might just be an accomplice and not the mastermind.

[Judoh]

I was just trying to show that that part of the theory could still work. I didn't think you thought it was wrong. It's just kind of easy to explain a lot of problems with the theory away with things like bribery and his charisma and stuff like that.

I guess I do have some things to work on with Nanjo and some people. With Nanjo though I just don't know what's going on with him. The most I can guess is that he needs money to help his sick granddaughter and that might be a reason for him to make a false autopsy. I'll try and look more into to stuff like that, but I'm not sure I'll find anything better than I already have.

and George being an accomplice with yet another someone else being the mastermind is still very possible yeah.

I also left a lot of hints out too. One of the immediate ones I can think of is George mentioning in episode 2 that "Genji let him win at chess"

[Renall]

Nanjo's problem is, if you believe he's part of all the conspiracies he appears to be part of, he's by far the biggest leak you can possibly imagine, because he will literally help anyone out.

So who would be dumb enough to trust him?

[Judoh]

If there is anybody at all who fits the later queen problem it's probably Nanjo.

[Misuzu]

Originally Posted by Renall

Nanjo's problem is, if you believe he's part of all the conspiracies he appears to be part of, he's by far the biggest leak you can possibly imagine, because he will literally help anyone out.

So who would be dumb enough to trust him?

Well, I don't think the killer(s) can trust Nanjo all that much. He's pretty much always killed after he's outlived his usefulness.

I also think it's likely that he's being blackmailed, at least by whoever is having him falsely confirm people as dead. He makes so many comments about how he might be wrong when he does it, as if he wants people to find out he's lying. He's certainly not an enthusiastic participant, at any rate.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Misuzu

He makes so many comments about how he might be wrong when he does it, as if he wants people to find out he's lying. He's certainly not an enthusiastic participant, at any rate.

That's interesting. It'd be nice to note down when he's most nervous about the diagnosis he's announcing.

Actually if faking death has any meaning for the culprit it means that the culprit's fake death would always have to occurs before Nanjo's real death, or in the case when that's not right that the culprit stays alive until the end.

[LaplaceNoMa]

There's one more thing about George-culprit theory connecting to Okonogi: the tea. The vast knowledge of tea. We've learned from ep2 that George learned it from Okonogi.

I know it sounds stupid, but we could still count that as a 'hint'

[Used Can]

As for motives for George, I think coming up with some are rather easy. For example, he may want the money to start his own business, and make it a big thing. He's always said he wants to do something like that. He also seems to be a person with many complexes. So, I wouldn't be surprised if he actually hates his immediate family, due to all the pressure they put on him. I also wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't give a fuck about the rest of the Ushiromiyas.

As for Shannon, he may love her, but if Shannontrice is true, and if he somehow managed to find out about her feelings for Battler, then I wouldn't be surprised if he also wanted to off Shannon out of scorn.

George could easily be a big FAT FAT FAT liar about his motives, whilst the ones I've listed are what he actually wants. Well, in fact, I've actually listed what he's said he wants, but from a different perspective.

[Nihilartikel]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Nontheless...
Ushiromiya Battler has a sin
Because of your sin, people die.
Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die.
No one escapes, all die.

I don't think I'm willing to accept a theory not directly related to that.

Just a silly thought, but since this is an important red that might get in the way of many good theories depending on how you interpret it, I think it's worth considering:

The most obvious interpretation for this is "Battler's sin somehow causes the murders." "Had Battler not sinned, no one would die."

Can we possibly read this to mean: "Battler's sin causes some people to die"?
That is to say: "Had Battler not sinned, some people (the culprit?) would get out alive."

This occurred to me after reading Judoh's theory (which I loved, by the way). Suppose the George + Sh(k)annontrice theory is right. Maybe Battler's sin is somehow related to Shannon, and his sudden reappearance is what ruins George's plan at some point by making Shannon suicidal/rebellious/Georgecidal.

In that sense, Battler's sin would be the reason " no one escapes, all die, and still not the reason the murders are taking place in the first place.

OR

Spoiler for Smallbombs and other stupid memes:

Alternatively, maybe Battler set up us the bomb before leaving the family six years ago. Then the Sumaderas set up us the small bombs.
All your gold are belong to us.

Originally Posted by Judoh

Well again I think we have some mixed messages here and Kumasawa doesn't have to be involved, but there are probably ways she could be. And I don't doubt he'd have some way to pay the good Doctor.

Spoiler for Ten Little Indians:

And the way Nanjo is involved in episode 3 seems to mirror And then there were none. Where the culprit gets the doctor to help him fake his death and kills the doctor later.

I REALLY like this. It gives us a way Nanjo can be manipulated by the culprit(s) up to once per episode without making him an accomplice. Of course, this is only practicable after the first twilight. Maybe we could draw up a list of possible fakers?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa

There's one more thing about George-culprit theory connecting to Okonogi: the tea. The vast knowledge of tea. We've learned from ep2 that George learned it from Okonogi.

I know it sounds stupid, but we could still count that as a 'hint'

If we believe a lot of the killings are precipitated by drugged tea, maybe not. Problem is, the person who brings her own tea to the island is Rosa...

[UsagiTenpura]

Speaking of Rosa, in arc 3 they mention she has a bottle of sedatives she uses for Maria and seems surprised the bottle is completely empty.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Renall

If we believe a lot of the killings are precipitated by drugged tea, maybe not. Problem is, the person who brings her own tea to the island is Rosa...

Did Rosa ever made it distinctly public that she brings her own tea, such that George would actually hear about it?

Because if not, the only people with access would be the servants, and assuming George and Shannon have a link it still gives an opening for one of them to tamper with it.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Did Rosa ever made it distinctly public that she brings her own tea, such that George would actually hear about it

She told Natsuhi about it, while everyone was around, I believe.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Did Rosa ever made it distinctly public that she brings her own tea, such that George would actually hear about it?

Because if not, the only people with access would be the servants, and assuming George and Shannon have a link it still gives an opening for one of them to tamper with it.

Alternately, this is misdirection; Rosa's tea is fine, but the tea Shannon prepares isn't.

That's just a thought though.