[Manga] Chapter 446 Discussion

[Scorpian]

Originally Posted by Fran~

Sasuke does wants to start a massacre, he sees konoha as a mere "Senju followers", i don't know if that speech was for real or if was a facade to avoid any Madara's suspicion.

well looking at how hes been acting before, its pretty obvious he only really wants to go after certain people. it doesn't seem like him to kill innocent people just for following the leaf since they had nothing to do with his tragedy. He also didn't try to kill any of orochimaru's followers like Kabuto or Karin just because they followed Oro.

[james0246]

I guess we are going to completely ignore the whole Kisame saying that Tobi is Madara scene, not to mention Tobi saying that he was Madara; or the fact that Obito was only a few years older than Itachi, so it would be hard for him to be so much taller that Itachi during their brief flashback; or the fact that Minato and Jiraiya directly connected Tobi and Madara; etc...but, I'm bored, so I will play your little game .

Originally Posted by Emilis

What the crap is Danzou’s problem?

Probably just jealousy of Sarutobi (remember, Orochimaru upped his experimentation due to the fact that someone else was chosen over him to become the 4th Hokage, so it is not like there is no precedent for a powerful figure to do "evil" things due to hurt pride and jealousy), or he could simply truly believes that he knows the "correct" path that Konoha should take.

Originally Posted by Emilis

If Tobi is Madara, why does he keep a perfectly good MS covered at all times (even in flashbacks when he helped Itachi)?

Who says he has two perfectly functioning Sharingan/MS/EMS anytime in the recent past? He could have lost one of his eyes ages ago during the battle with Hashirama. There need be no ressurection of Obito or connection to Danzou - Madara could simply have an injured eye...

Originally Posted by Emilis

How else would the death of Rin be explained if both Kakashi and Obito are really dead now?

Who cares? She is a character that didn't even have a last name, so her purpose in the story has probably already been completed. There is no reason to bring her up at all unless she is the reason Kakashi gained his MS, in which case Kakashi would still be alive, so Obito would not have to be resurrected in order to talk about Rin.

Originally Posted by Emilis

Danzou’s right eye remains bandaged even in this flashback from several years ago.

So? Maybe Kishimoto is simply drawing a symbolic connection between Danzou and Madara (i.e. they live by the system of an "eye for an eye"; or, they are partially blinded by their ambitions; or, they cannot "see" the reality of their situation; etc.). Or maybe, when Danzou's backstory is explained, it will turn out that an Uchiha took his eye, etc. Who knows. Simply because he has an injured eye, though, does not mean that he has any direct connection to Madara.

Originally Posted by Emilis

How does Tobi move “at the freekin speed of light”? (He was trained by the yellow flash and could have learned the technique using his sharengen back then).

Or, the fourth technique given by the EMS is a space/time ninjutsu of a level higher than anything the Minato could create...

Originally Posted by Emilis

Also I can hardly believe that even to protect his identity, Madara would act like as big of a goof as Tobi does. Obito on the other hand was the joker on his team.

Why not? We don't even know why Madara was hiding to begin with, so how can we even begin to question his motivations concerning acting like a doofus around Deidara. Hell, for all we know, Madara has always had a slight bi-polar disorder and will constantly run 'hot' and 'cold', or maybe Tobi is a reflection on the brother (Inazu?) that he claims to love; etc.

Originally Posted by Emilis

The one problem I do see is that Obito's and Madara's goals would eventually clash if Madara wants to rule Konoha, and Obito wants to destroy it. That said Sasuke served Orochimaru for years knowing their goals would clash, so it wouldn't be the first time we saw that. Maybe Obito thought he would be able to handle Madara with whatever Akasuki's planning with the Biiju's.

The only problem with this (at least within the confines of your argument) is that Tobi/Obito ordered Pain to capture Naruto, not destroy Konoha. Rather, it was Danzou/Madara who sat back and let Konoha be destroyed. So, Tobi/Obito did not wish to destroy Konoha, and Danzou/Madara did...?

That being said, I can almost believe a connection between Danzou and Madara. They both seem to have similar MOs, etc. But, there is not sufficient reason to assume that they are the same person, and there is no real reason why Obito has to be resurrected.

Originally Posted by Scorpian

well looking at how hes been acting before, its pretty obvious he only really wants to go after certain people. it doesn't seem like him to kill innocent people just for following the leaf since they had nothing to do with his tragedy. He also didn't try to kill any of orochimaru's followers like Kabuto or Karin just because they followed Oro.

Aren't the ROOT ninjas he would have to fight technically "innocent" of hurting Sasuke. And what about any of the other ANBU or Konoha shinobi that he would encounter when trying to reach the Elders? Suffice to say, Sasuke's intentions are probably to destroy the elders and whomever might get in his way. Additionally, since he is aiming to use lethal force, what would happen if he used Amaterasu or Kirin inside of the village? Massive destruction and the loss of innocent lives, correct?

In the end, there is no real way for Sasuke and Team Hawk to get into Konoha and attack the elders without killing/seriously injuring a few of the "innocent" shinobi.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

No you are looking at it all wrong. Naruto is doing what Sasuke should have done all along - talking to the person he wants to kill (admittedly, Sasuke wasn't actually powerful enough to fight and defeat Itachi, so Itachi killing himself is almost the only answer to that fight outside of postponing it for a few more years). Their stories are almost directly comparable now, so Naruto does not truly need to know the history of the clan (outside of the preamble Sasuke will undoubtedly give during their fight) to defeat Sasuke (added to that, knowing that Danzou was responsible for the creation of Pain ultimately means that both Naruto and Sasuke have felt the pain that Danzou creates via the spreading of his ideals, so Sasuke bringing Danzou up would only force Naruto to acknowledge that Danzou s bad, not that Konoha is bad). He knows almost exactly what Sasuke's pain is (a force destroyed what he loved, so now he wants to destroy that force), any other information is ultimately peripheral to understanding Sasuke's pain.

Don't get me wrong, i understand what you say about this matter and to a certain degree i agree with it. The difference is that i think all this still is not enough, because Sasuke is such an unreasonable and selfish idiot. So i think Naruto must get very personal, that is he must know everything about the Uchiha story so he can debate with Sasuke, and he can then even prove how both of them lost everything because of the village but also they got everything good from life because of the village. Itachi has placed great pressure on Sasuke by making him an avenger but the same is true for Naruto, because his father by making him a demon container has done something very similar to what Itachi did to Sasuke. The big difference between Naruto and Sasuke was clear when we read the chapter where Naruto and Yondaime finally meet: all the pain that Yondaime cause to Naruto had been forgiven after a very short burst of anger. Naruto did hit Yondaime with anger but he made peace almost immeditely after that, Sasuke would not be capable of such thing.

What you mention here for Naruto and Sasuke is quite general, it's Ok to compare Pain and Naruto in such a general matter. And both Pain and Naruto see the world's problem in such a way because they think of other people too, they can think of other people who all had the same fate as they were. But in case of Sasuke there's a fundamental difference, Sasuke is selfish, he only thinks about himself and his clan's destiny, for him other's simply don't matter. So if Naruto wants to talk with him he needs to get on a personal level and not just talk in general about pain, fate or whatever. And that's why i think Naruto must learn everything about Itachi, because Itachi is the most important person in Sasuke's life and therefore Sasuke's final decision about which side to join will be based on his understanding of Itachi's life and actions. So i think Naruto must ultimately convince Sasuke that Itachi's ideals were good (and that'll probably lead to Sasuke accepting to see the world through Itachi's eyes, i mean he gets EMS).
Another reason why i think Itachi should be in the story is because he was one of the greatest characters of the manga, so he deserves a proper flashback where he finally is shown as a good guy who he really is. Also i think Danzou is nothing more than a disgusting plot device, so an emotional conversation between Sasuke and Naruto will not have Danzou as a subject, but Itachi will be a subject.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

No you are looking at it all wrong. Naruto is doing what Sasuke should have done all along - talking to the person he wants to kill

Sasuke did that actually, it just so happens that Itachi lied about pretty much everything.

Their stories are almost directly comparable now, so Naruto does not truly need to know the history of the clan (outside of the preamble Sasuke will undoubtedly give during their fight) to defeat Sasuke (added to that, knowing that Danzou was responsible for the creation of Pain ultimately means that both Naruto and Sasuke have felt the pain that Danzou creates via the spreading of his ideals, so Sasuke bringing Danzou up would only force Naruto to acknowledge that Danzou s bad, not that Konoha is bad). He knows almost exactly what Sasuke's pain is (a force destroyed what he loved, so now he wants to destroy that force), any other information is ultimately peripheral to understanding Sasuke's pain.

I wouldn't say directly comparable, not even almost, it would be true if Naruto had came back to find everybody in Konoha already dead. But it's true that he does know what it means to lose people now (hinata should have died >_<). That being said he still need to learn Sasuke's story because his goal is to have Sasuke comes back and he simply can't do that as long as Sasuke wants revenge on the village. And Danzou was Konoha, part of it anyway. Along with the two elders he was a high ranked official whose power was enough to overrule the Hokage on crucial matter.

[Emilis]

Originally Posted by james0246

I guess we are going to completely ignore the whole Kisame saying that Tobi is Madara scene, not to mention Tobi saying that he was Madara; or the fact that Obito was only a few years older than Itachi, so it would be hard for him to be so much taller that Itachi during their brief flashback; or the fact that Minato and Jiraiya directly connected Tobi and Madara; etc...but, I'm bored, so I will play your little game .

I'm not ignoring any of the claims by other characters that Tobi is Madara. As I said, Obito would have claimed to be Madara in order to establish his authority, and the permanent MS would have convinced most people being as rare as it was. So it's no surprise Kisame, Minato, and Jiraiya all believed it to be true. As far as his height goes, did Itachi grow sense the time he wiped out the Uchia clan? I thought he seemed pretty full grown at the time, and would just assume Obito was taller than him.

You're right though, there are alternatives to all the questions. Maybe I'm just holding Kishi to too high of a standard, but an eye just getting damaged in some unnamed battle (for a character who's power is directly connected to his eyes) seems odd when we had a whole speech on the trouble he went through to get the eyes he now has. Same with Rin, I'll be a bit ticked for her ever being created in the first place if nothing comes of it. I mean why have bothered? What really gets me is Tobi using that time/space technique, and Kakashi immediately comparing it to the fourths technique. It just seems like something that's going to come back as a flashback later, ugh.

Yeah I do have trouble figuring out the motivations though. Danzou did sit back during pains attack, but he clearly wanted to use it as a chance to take over, not have everyone wiped out. Pain seemed to do that on a whim. As far as Tobi not ordering Konoha's destruction, good point. But ultimately Akasuki's stated goal does include the destruction of the five major hidden villages right? So whether he ordered it now, or is waiting, that's the end he has claimed to have in mind.

Eh we'll see. If you have anything besides characters saying otherwise or Tobi being tall let me know. I'm would not be at all surprised to find Danzou is Madara or is working directly for Madara as you said, but the Obito thing is just a whim. I'm just trying to find if there is a reason it can't be true.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Danzou isnt Madara. That's going too far.

First is Tobi Obito...then Danzou is Madara? While Madara was indeed the Mizukage..
Nahh. That means that Madara was all the time in Konoha? Shodai and Nidaime would've most certainly figured it out that Madara would be Danzou.

They are not the same persons i know that for sure ...

[Scorpian]

Originally Posted by james0246

Aren't the ROOT ninjas he would have to fight technically "innocent" of hurting Sasuke. And what about any of the other ANBU or Konoha shinobi that he would encounter when trying to reach the Elders? Suffice to say, Sasuke's intentions are probably to destroy the elders and whomever might get in his way. Additionally, since he is aiming to use lethal force, what would happen if he used Amaterasu or Kirin inside of the village? Massive destruction and the loss of innocent lives, correct?

In the end, there is no real way for Sasuke and Team Hawk to get into Konoha and attack the elders without killing/seriously injuring a few of the "innocent" shinobi.

If he comes anytime soon, I seriously doubt he'll even need to fight any root; and the only root he'll probably need to fight are Danzou's. If that. And, like I said it doesn't seem like Sasuke's style; he could very well disable them without killing them just so he could get them out of his way - just like the 1000 ninja, as well as the prisoners in Oro's dungeon. Sounds like you're dying for him to become fully evil, but hes not. Not yet anyway. At this point he is still an anti-hero or villain.

As for using lethal force in the village; yeah sure, there is a chance that someone might get hurt or even die from one of his moves, but it wouldn't be an intentional blow or murder. Just like the possibility of someone getting hurt by being too close to naruto’s battle. I can’t wait till he comes to the village; I’m going to remember everyone who kept saying hes going to walk around and massacre people and call them out on it.

[Justin Kim]

You know, I am kind of still wondering how Nagato eventually got those bodies. I the bodies that were controlled by the chakra receivers have got to have some intereaction with him in a later life.

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by Scorpian

As for using lethal force in the village; yeah sure, there is a chance that someone might get hurt or even die from one of his moves, but it wouldn't be an intentional blow or murder. Just like the possibility of someone getting hurt by being too close to naruto’s battle. I can’t wait till he comes to the village; I’m going to remember everyone who kept saying hes going to walk around and massacre people and call them out on it.

-There is a legal term for that. Its called "manslaughter". What it states is that the person who killed someone had the intent to harm the victim but not to the extent of murder. However, this would only be applicable if he was fighting a single target. Sasuke has both Kirin and Amaterasu, 2 jutsu that cover a rather extensive area. Should a bystander die from either one then Sasuke would be (in legal terms anyway) held responsible for their death. This is because he, being the 2 jutsu's wielder, should know the full extent of their power and risk. He cannot say that he did not know other people would die from them because the fighing would likely have taken place in a densely populated area. And lest we forget, Sasuke has made it clear that he inteds on killing at the very least the elders of Konoha, therein negating a possibility of manslaughter and innocense from any bystander deaths.

[mrsticky005]

I say the chance that Danzou is Madara is 25%.
The chance that Danzou is working with Madara is 80%-90%
and when I say "working with" I really mean "being used by".

What's all this about Danzou and Hanzou being brothers?

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Emilis

Eh we'll see. If you have anything besides characters saying otherwise or Tobi being tall let me know. I'm would not be at all surprised to find Danzou is Madara or is working directly for Madara as you said, but the Obito thing is just a whim. I'm just trying to find if there is a reason it can't be true.

Well there's also the fact that Madara ordered Pein to capture Naruto while Danzou killed the messenger frog to prevent Pein from capturing Naruto, which makes very little sense if they are the same person even if it is Madara we're talking about here.

Plus, Danzou only has one arm and it would be pretty ridiculous if he was just keeping his other arm hidden underneath his robes.

Originally Posted by Scorpian

If he comes anytime soon, I seriously doubt he'll even need to fight any root; and the only root he'll probably need to fight are Danzou's. If that. And, like I said it doesn't seem like Sasuke's style; he could very well disable them without killing them just so he could get them out of his way - just like the 1000 ninja, as well as the prisoners in Oro's dungeon. Sounds like you're dying for him to become fully evil, but hes not. Not yet anyway. At this point he is still an anti-hero or villain.

As for using lethal force in the village; yeah sure, there is a chance that someone might get hurt or even die from one of his moves, but it wouldn't be an intentional blow or murder. Just like the possibility of someone getting hurt by being too close to naruto’s battle. I can’t wait till he comes to the village; I’m going to remember everyone who kept saying hes going to walk around and massacre people and call them out on it.

I agree that Sasuke arriving to Konoha and massacring every man, woman and child he comes across just isn't going to happen...mostly because Pein just did that.

However, I do believe that Sasuke was serious about wanting to get revenge on everyone not just the elders. Seems unlikely that it was just to fool Madara since it seemed to make Madara even more skeptical when he said it. I think Sasuke fully intends to whack everyone in Konoha, but circumstances will play out so that Sasuke never gets the chance to completely carry out his revenge before Naruto finally beats..er, talks some sense into him. Similar to how Sasuke intended to kill Oro and Itachi, but he never carried out those executions not because he was merciful, but because the plot made it so that he couldn't.

[naruske]

Originally Posted by Justin Kim

You know, I am kind of still wondering how Nagato eventually got those bodies. I the bodies that were controlled by the chakra receivers have got to have some intereaction with him in a later life.

what I'm wondering is how Nagato got so .....skinny boned

[Spicy~Noodles]

So many theories and conspiracies, I can't keep up so I'll just continue to read the manga. Grassy knoll anyone? It sounds like a favorite hangout spot for many theorists (including me). I would be awesome if Danzou had a stroke, has a heart attack, or dies of old age I can't remember anyone in the manga who died of natural causes. Please, if you can remember let me know.

[Sakuranbo]

Originally Posted by naruske

what I'm wondering is how Nagato got so .....skinny boned

I'm guessing over-usage of the Rinnegan has exhausted him physically and now his body has been taking the toll. It would make sense since even if he does have unlimited chakra supply he would still require rest and nourishment and we have seen the six paths going to "sleep" in those capsule/pods back in the Jiraiya vs Pain arc, which means even God needs to rest himself occasionally.

[mrsticky005]

Well there's also the fact that Madara ordered Pein to capture Naruto while Danzou killed the messenger frog to prevent Pein from capturing Naruto, which makes very little sense if they are the same person even if it is Madara we're talking about here.

I have suspicions that wasn't really Danzou's intention.

[iBeast]

Things will be interesting when Sasuke appears...

[GusGus]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

lol Bleach (manga) has really been disappointing... each chapter i'm like wth?
Besides.... my favorite character (i won't mention names) gets owned all the time

Well, lately in Naruto everyone get owned, except all mighty Naruto of course.

[El_Negro]

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-There is a legal term for that. Its called "manslaughter". What it states is that the person who killed someone had the intent to harm the victim but not to the extent of murder. However, this would only be applicable if he was fighting a single target. Sasuke has both Kirin and Amaterasu, 2 jutsu that cover a rather extensive area. Should a bystander die from either one then Sasuke would be (in legal terms anyway) held responsible for their death. This is because he, being the 2 jutsu's wielder, should know the full extent of their power and risk.

I thought it was called "collateral damage"

[Justin Kim]

Originally Posted by naruske

what I'm wondering is how Nagato got so .....skinny boned

Well I mean the reasons are pretty much there. The Chakra Receivers he stuck into himself while sitting in that wierd chair mechanism of his, has completely exhausted him throughout the usage of flowing chakra into those bodies. It's just like the reference made, when Naruto's demon cloak fully covers him, Naruto's life span will shorten. Same possibly goes for Nagato; the user probably can control it easily without any harm to himself if the Rinnengan isn't being imposed on any other activities. (Ex: Such as short/long-distance body control). I mean he just sits there.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by El_Negro

I thought it was called "collateral damage"

Anyway, it doesn't really matter how do you call it... both terms involves inocent people who die.

But the point is that if Sasuke is really looking that or if he was bluffing.