2009-08-30, 07:33 | Link #121 |
AS Oji-kun
Join Date: Nov 2006
Age: 74
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The role of women and feminism in anime is a subject that's been discussed here from time to time. Here are a few other threads you might want to read:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=38094 http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=70948 http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=49570 http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=80192 http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=38806
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2009-08-30, 11:32 | Link #122 | ||||||
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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I wonder if this thread shouldn't be merged with the sexism/feminism within anime thread. In fact, if space cowboy has no objections, I'll do just that.
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2009-08-30, 12:32 | Link #123 |
On a mission
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Because cartoons in the west are marketed towards children, there's usually much less risque content unless they want to sneak stuff past the radar to parents. But in general anime shares the same type of sexulization that all form of media directed towards adults have.
Personally, I find most fanservice regarding female characters to be annoying when it is gratuitous. It's rare to find a female character that is attractive and not seen as an object but their own character.I do respect series that attempt this. But it's not too bad unless it is excessive and pointless. I don't mind some ecchi. Slightly off topic, but it does seem like anime is a bit less prudish towards sex. Where I live, the United States, has a pretty twisted view on censorship. For some reason, violence is far more acceptable than sexual content. I don't know, if in real life I saw someone naked, it'd traumatize me less than seeing a person being injured or killed. Sex is always advertised, but it's also portrayed as evil and forbidden. And that seems kinda unhealthy imo.
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2009-08-30, 12:32 | Link #124 | |
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2009-08-30, 20:15 | Link #125 | |
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Age: 35
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2009-08-30, 20:32 | Link #126 | ||||
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2009-08-30 at 20:55. |
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2009-08-30, 23:47 | Link #127 | |
AS Oji-kun
Join Date: Nov 2006
Age: 74
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2009-08-31, 00:28 | Link #129 |
耳をすませば
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Age: 34
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Me neither, but we were probably kids when we first saw these Disney films. Looking at it now, while I don't know if it's "hyper-sexualized", it's clear that a decision was made somewhere to emphasize a more sexualized appearance, at least in this particular example. But Pocahontas? Mulan? I don't know if I'd call it a consistent theme.
Personally the biggest issue in anime I have are the portrayals of simple minded female characters who act years younger than their ages. Next after that are the "tsundere" cliches and whatnot.
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2009-08-31, 00:28 | Link #130 | |
HI, BILLY MAYS HERE
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Call it sexualization if you want; It's in historical context, to a degree that it's believed to be in...Unless of course you want a historically inaccurate burqa dress instead...
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2009-08-31, 02:43 | Link #132 |
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If works are done through a male's point of view, I'd say many things are as they are because of prejuice. Stereotypically, men do wars, women marry men and bear children. So, men are the muscular and violent ones while women are the fluffy, cutey, frail ones, yearning for marriage.
When it comes to children series and movies, it is essential to teach them the basics of how things "usually" are. So, there is nothing wrong to get all predictable and stereotypical there. Children stories must be simple to understand, politically correct and with a happy ending. If they aren't kids won't understand them, will be confused or may even be disturbed with a gloom ending. So, no reason not to play by the norm there. As for Jasmin and other Disney women been seen sexualized, that is the trope of "Parent Service". It is an indirect form of fan service, aiming at the poor parents who have to watch movies with their kids. The kids don't see these characters sexy but in order for their caretakers not to fall asleep, some help is needed. Thus, indirect sexual images just to keep interest. The real issue comes when we get to teenage series and movies. This is the part where things get messy. Now, teenagers see characters in a sexy way, and a lot more than most adults. Most get a boner by a gentle breeze, so what did you expect? Anyway, from here on works aiming at them don't need to be stereotypical. Yet, the way I see it, most series are mainstream and follow 3 stereotypical ways. -the male way, where violence in abundant, men are the heroes, they are all muscular and women are background decorations, fan service and platonic romance material. -the female way, where romance is the main focus, usually pasted with a lot of magic to make it more catchy, women are the leads looking for love and romance and going for the hunks. -the loser way, where everything is a reverse reality. The above two are mostly extreme sides or reality but this is making things look great, while they are normally seen as lame. Like harem and ecchi shows for example, making the dorks as heroes and the focus of all the pretty girls. Such shows aim to please all those who don't feel "normal" or "secured" in their gender roles like the other two. That is boys who don't feel strong in body or mind and girls who don't feel feminine and attractive. The teenage series and movies give room to the haywire category, most of which is now in the hands of the Japanese industry. Here, cliches are tempered with and taken to an extreme level, making series that are unbelievably violent or erotic or bend the gender roles to crazy proportions. Some can be seen as experimentation, others as questioning of the politically corrrect stereotypes and some as pure fan pleasing for all those who got tired with the normal stuff. I mean, Helsing is just about brainless violence and Mnemosyne is twisted S&M suff, all of which are crazy and insulting from a normal point of view yet very entertaining from a fed up viewer's point of view. Yuri, Yaoi, Shounen-ai and all the rest of the gender bending and gender crossing stuff belong here, taking those who want something "different". There is also the mature side of stories, with a lot more realistic and a lot less extreme caricatured cast, where everything is a lot closer to reality. This category is for all those who want something more down to earth and mature in plot and story. Something that doesn't need to switch of your mind and force you to tolerate any plot hole and convinient event as "passable". Where men ain't Swatcheneger superheroes and women don't like spineless idiots. It is still hard to like things this way as most get entertained with a lot detached from reality elements and in case it is "too normal" it may be seen predictable and boring. Then again, most action and romances do repeat the same stereotypes so they can also be seen this way. It is all in the eye of the beholder if he wants normal because he is fed up with the fantastic, or fantastic if he is fed up with the normal. |
2009-08-31, 08:24 | Link #133 | |
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Would you call Aladdin an over-sexualized male? What about other Disney heroes, like Tarzan? Is he, according to your logic, "hypersexualized"? |
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2009-08-31, 09:02 | Link #134 |
eyewitness
Join Date: Jan 2007
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I noticed that when somebody writes "the West" in this forum, it will actually mean "the USA" in 90 percent of the cases. In the remaining cases is will mean "outside of Japan".
And that Disney of all things sexualizes female characters more than your average anime sounds like voices from the bizarro world to me. Maybe we could go through Chartfag's summer anime chart together and identify the anime with female characters without fetish (w)ear (pardon the pun). Real japanese school uniforms do not end two finger widths below the crotch, ya now.
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2009-08-31, 10:21 | Link #135 |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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from what I've heard Jasmine dress in typical of a harem girl (no not that kind), grant a little less ornate so if anything I'd say her attire is more along the lines of historical content than anything sexual. If anything it just seem to my that Disney just wanted a beautiful princess that girls could look up to.
Also, as Slice of Life the west=/=USA and I think it's very important to remember not all western animation comes from the America either. Anyway I have to agree with some of the sentiments this is way too general to give any solid answers, as nice as it is to to see people using example to back up there claims one, two or a whole genre isn't enough to analysis one medium let alone compare it to another. If fact the questions the OP put forward could be topics in and of themselves, Everyone here's only addressing one part. |
2009-08-31, 12:14 | Link #136 | |||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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(Taken out of context, that makes him sound like a lech. ) His fuller answer, however, is given here: Quote:
I suspect that's essentially the same for most other Japanese animators and mangaka as well. Most of the time, they aren't striving to be particularly radical. In fact, they're usually working within well-worn anime/manga conventions. In recent years, particularly, there has been increasing focus on moe female characters in shows such as K-On, which is really nothing more than a series showing cute girls doing cute things. I don't find shows like that particularly "empowering" for women. If anything, women and girls are being "infantalised", turned into cute little playthings that men would love to take home to see Mum. Such moe characters may even represent idealised versions of cute little daughters that grown men wish to have. But that is, of course, only one way to look at the issue. The way women are "sexualised" or "objectivised" in anime/manga is, needless to say, far more complicated. Miyazaki gives a better explanation of the phenomenon here: Quote:
Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2009-08-31 at 12:40. |
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2009-08-31, 16:37 | Link #137 |
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Yea, that does detract a bit from a series when I watch sometimes. Though it does help, if those characters grow beyond these things. Or there is some backstory of why the character is like that. If it's just there for a few gags, it's annoying, and if it causes character regression for the sake of a few gags, that's even worse. I actually view "tsundere" as a character flaw, but mileage may vary on that one.
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2009-09-01, 00:56 | Link #138 | |||||||
The Last Visible Dog
Join Date: Aug 2004
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In your opening post, you wanted to know how female protagonists fared in western animation and films, but switched your view to being inclusive of just animation, and provided a true example of the shoujo genre as being one that features primarily female protagonists. Are you implying that few movies feature female protagonists? I watch even fewer movies than I do anime and cartoons, but offhand I can rattle off several that, had they been released in Japan by a Japanese mangaka, could be called shoujo. Hell, Julie and Julia is out right and features not one, but two women, right there in the title. How's that for lack of representation? Quote:
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I'm going to conclude that roriconfan's post is a fairly subtle troll.
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2009-09-01, 01:14 | Link #139 | ||
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2009-09-01, 04:19 | Link #140 | |||||
cowboy of space
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: leicester england
Age: 36
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Oh man can i just say this site has the worst quoting system i've ever seen, either that or im just not getting it.
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