[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Marion]

Originally Posted by musouka

The Stakes have crests on their skirts. Gaap is the only one without a crest that I can recall at the moment.

oh wow how did I not see that

But yeah, looks like Gaap and the Iron Maidens are the only ones without a crest. Sakutarou doesn't have it as well.

[Volcanic]

Originally Posted by Marion

Gaap doesn't seem to have the crest either

Hmmmm. This, no matter how stupid it may be, is making me think

I don't have EP4 on me at the moment- anything special or suspicious said when Gaap is introduced?

[Antera Caramichael]

Originally Posted by Archer

Personally, I disagree with this theory, purely because

Spoiler for Episode 4 Spoilers:

"Beatrice" does exist in the real world. There is actually somebody out there related to the murders that calls herself "Beatrice". The proof lies within the signature written on Maria's Grimoire.

Spoiler for Response:

I never said that Beatrice cannot be a real person. In fact, I'm also sure that she is a real person. But no one said that Beatrice the Witch and Beatrice the Culprit are the same.
Do you really think Beatrice the Culprit is really a blonde, blue eyed western like girl?
Battler created Beatrice the Witch as the incarnation of the Culprit, which is why I said that he contradict himself in the First Tea Party by denying the Witch's existence, but at the same time creating her.
He don't want to believe in the Witch, but with what he got at the end of the First Episode, he can't deny yet entirely her existence.

Originally Posted by Archer

Spoiler for Episode 4 Spoilers:

Furthermore, that person was also the one that wrote the letters to the relatives of the victims and the letters in the bottles as evident by the similar handwriting. This implies that this "Beatrice", whoever she is, is still alive under the alias of "Maria Ushiromiya", and knows exactly what happened on the island.

Spoiler for Response:

My theory don't explain who is Beatrice, neither none of the mysteries. And how do we know that the writer of the letter knows what happens, since what he wrote is, what if I remember correctly, the contract of Mariage Sorcière and the letters in bottle which tell the stories of the Episodes as Beatrice showed us.

Originally Posted by Archer

Spoiler for Episode 4 Spoilers:

Furthermore, within the context of the game, meta-Battler knows a lot more information than he should be knowing, especially about the true story behind Beatrice. This suggests that there is an outside influence that is guiding meta-Battler through all this, whoever he or she may be.

Spoiler for Response:

That is right. My theory suggest that Battler, AFTER the event, have done a same journey as Ange in search for the truth. Like her, he might have learn some details: The Red Text and over informations that we learn through the games.
There is nothing in this theory that can deny the fact that Battler is making a journey, learning in the real world the same things that he is incorporating in his scenarios.
The games can be the metaphors of his thinking, like I said the first series of his reasoning about the method, and the second series for who.

For the fact that he knows things that he shouldn't, well, is making this sort of stories is sane? I don't think that Battler still got all his head, like I said he could have been making this stories for years. There would be a risk that he lost himself, confusing the reality and the fiction, inventing other elements.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Volcanic

Hmmmm. This, no matter how stupid it may be, is making me think

I don't have EP4 on me at the moment- anything special or suspicious said when Gaap is introduced?

Gaap is summoned by GoldSmith, after the six people in the first twilight are killed, in order to teleport the survivors into the prison.

[Renall]

"Beatrice" is a problem, as we have rather a large number of them by this point:

1) Beatrice the Endless Witch of the meta-world, Battler's opponent (Beato).
2) Beatrice the witch of the portrait/Rokkenjima, who claims to be committing magical crimes in the magic scenes on the game board.
3) Beatrice the human girl who looked like the portrait and died in 1967.
4) "Beatrice" the "witch" who taught Beatrice the human girl sometime before 1967 (resembles Virgilia).
5) Kinzo's Beatrice.
6) "Beatrice" the witch physically present on the island in 1986.
7) Maria's Beatrice, whose handwriting later self-identifies as "Maria Ushiromiya."
8) EVA-Beatrice.
9) ANGE-Beatrice.

Did I miss any Beatos out there? Some of these are probably the same people (Maria's Beatrice I have good odds on being the physical "Beatrice" of ep2/4), and Eva and Ange probably don't really count (neither would Battler if he's technically "Beatrice" now, though he wouldn't see himself as such).

[blitz1/2]

At this rate, we'll be turning Rokkenjima into a new Silent Hill...

[Ithekro]

Welcome to Beatrice World.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Renall

"Beatrice" is a problem, as we have rather a large number of them by this point:

1) Beatrice the Endless Witch of the meta-world, Battler's opponent (Beato).
2) Beatrice the witch of the portrait/Rokkenjima, who claims to be committing magical crimes in the magic scenes on the game board.
3) Beatrice the human girl who looked like the portrait and died in 1967.
4) "Beatrice" the "witch" who taught Beatrice the human girl sometime before 1967 (resembles Virgilia).
5) Kinzo's Beatrice.
6) "Beatrice" the witch physically present on the island in 1986.
7) Maria's Beatrice, whose handwriting later self-identifies as "Maria Ushiromiya."
8) EVA-Beatrice.
9) ANGE-Beatrice.

Did I miss any Beatos out there? Some of these are probably the same people (Maria's Beatrice I have good odds on being the physical "Beatrice" of ep2/4), and Eva and Ange probably don't really count (neither would Battler if he's technically "Beatrice" now, though he wouldn't see himself as such).

There's also other Endless Witches before Virgilia - according to EP 3 she's the one who started the trend of giving the title 'Beatrice' to each successor, so technically she's the original Beatrice.

Beatrice from bullets 6 and 7 might be the same person possibly? In EP 2 when we first see Suit-Beato, Maria immediately recognizes her as the Beatrice she has been meeting up with all the time. Battler also saw that same Beato, but then again he was pretty drunk since he also saw golden butterflies, so we might not want to take that for granted.

[desirebluesky]

i don't think we should explain golden butterflies by him beeing drunk it was midnight afterall, the game ended. he always sees creepy stuff at that time.

Beatrice from bullets 6 and 7 might be the same person possibly?

rather probably.
unless you wanna try to fit 2 Beatos in the 17 person limit.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Marion

There's also other Endless Witches before Virgilia - according to EP 3 she's the one who started the trend of giving the title 'Beatrice' to each successor, so technically she's the original Beatrice.

Being the original Beatrice, does that not somehow imply that she might be Kinzo's Beatrice, too?

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Renall

"Beatrice" is a problem, as we have rather a large number of them by this point:

1) Beatrice the Endless Witch of the meta-world, Battler's opponent (Beato).
2) Beatrice the witch of the portrait/Rokkenjima, who claims to be committing magical crimes in the magic scenes on the game board.
3) Beatrice the human girl who looked like the portrait and died in 1967.
4) "Beatrice" the "witch" who taught Beatrice the human girl sometime before 1967 (resembles Virgilia).
5) Kinzo's Beatrice.
6) "Beatrice" the witch physically present on the island in 1986.
7) Maria's Beatrice, whose handwriting later self-identifies as "Maria Ushiromiya."
8) EVA-Beatrice.
9) ANGE-Beatrice.

Did I miss any Beatos out there? Some of these are probably the same people (Maria's Beatrice I have good odds on being the physical "Beatrice" of ep2/4), and Eva and Ange probably don't really count (neither would Battler if he's technically "Beatrice" now, though he wouldn't see himself as such).

Why does everyone forget

Spoiler for Beato:

Piece-Battler, SPEAKING IN THE FIRST PERSON, recognizes there's someone on the other end of the phone who sounds like a female, yet he's never heard her before.

He didn't hear "Kinzo", who, as we know, is long dead.

He then proceeds to head to the mansion, and STILL TALKING IN THE FIRST PERSON, sees someone who looks just like the woman in the portrait, calls herself Beatrice, and is a loony who likes to refer to chess metaphors. She also has a split-personality disorder. Don't forget, he is not drunk at the time, and the first-person perspective should be counted as a red truth. At least I think that.

Therefore, there is someone named Beatrice on the island. SHE is disguising as somebody, NOBODY is disguising as her. Why does nobody believe Maria? Uu~

Oh yeah, and speaking of EP4...

Spoiler for I have a dirty mind:

What if ANGE, instead of just talking with Battler, had sex with him to bring him back? According to Lambda, she isn't even "really" related to him, so that would be fine, riiiiiiiight?

[Ithekro]

Because no one ever believes the nine year old.

[desirebluesky]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

Why does everyone forget

i don't!! (i just brought it up a few pages ago D: )

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

She also has a split-personality disorder

LOL.
not the best way to put it though, the change in her behaviour is explained by the context.

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

Spoiler for I have a dirty mind:

What if ANGE, instead of just talking with Battler, had sex with him to bring him back? According to Lambda, she isn't even "really" related to him, so that would be fine, riiiiiiiight?

i actually had the same thoughts glad i'm not the only one. i also got the idea about

Spoiler for EP5 intro:

Battler doing the same to BSODrice/Katatorice/Moetrice/HowShouldICallIt

guess my inner shiper/pervert is comig out

Being the original Beatrice, does that not somehow imply that she might be Kinzo's Beatrice, too?

it does. (or rather, it's just a hint. could be a fake one?)
than again, Kinzo's Beatrice is supposed to be a person capable of getting 10tons of gold out of nowhere.
but than again we know basicaly nothing about her... still i find it kinda hard to think about her as Beatrice, i'd rather interpret it in different way.



btw. did anyone notice what day is it? if it was '86 the conference would be ending today. (hopefully with no deaths)

[Ithekro]

Kinzo would still be dead.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by desirebluesky

i actually had the same thoughts glad i'm not the only one. i also got the idea about

Spoiler for EP5 intro:

Battler doing the same to BSODrice/Katatorice/Moetrice/HowShouldICallIt

guess my inner shiper/pervert is comig out

Spoiler:

I had seen a picture on Danbooru where Battler finally took his chance to grope Moetrice. Sadly, I think it got deleted for whatever reason before I was able to save it.

[Jan-Poo]

SHE is disguising as somebody, NOBODY is disguising as her. Why does nobody believe Maria? Uu~

Because between the idea that some "stranger" is disguising as someone that is well known and no one notice and the idea that one of the known people is disguising as Beatrice and Battler doesn't notice from 6+ meters in the darkness and heavy rain, the latter is more credible ^^;

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Welcome to Beatrice World.

Beatrice/Beato world = Silent hill's Other world...


Please tell me that Ryukishi would give us a Pyramid Head.

[desirebluesky]

actually, MARIA's dress always makes me think of Pyramid Head...
PH=Beato? he did have his own portrait in Silent Hill XD

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Renall

"Beatrice" is a problem, as we have rather a large number of them by this point:

1) Beatrice the Endless Witch of the meta-world, Battler's opponent (Beato).
2) Beatrice the witch of the portrait/Rokkenjima, who claims to be committing magical crimes in the magic scenes on the game board.
3) Beatrice the human girl who looked like the portrait and died in 1967.
4) "Beatrice" the "witch" who taught Beatrice the human girl sometime before 1967 (resembles Virgilia).
5) Kinzo's Beatrice.
6) "Beatrice" the witch physically present on the island in 1986.
7) Maria's Beatrice, whose handwriting later self-identifies as "Maria Ushiromiya."
8) EVA-Beatrice.
9) ANGE-Beatrice.

Did I miss any Beatos out there? Some of these are probably the same people (Maria's Beatrice I have good odds on being the physical "Beatrice" of ep2/4), and Eva and Ange probably don't really count (neither would Battler if he's technically "Beatrice" now, though he wouldn't see himself as such).

Don't forget:
10) Beatrice the Golden, who initially has the head's ring and apparently wants the family to solve the epitaph in order to choose the next successor
11) Beatrice who wrote the letters that weren't signed "Beatrice the Golden"
12) Beatrice who goes around sticking stakes in corpses
13) Beatrice who paints magic circles on some of the crime scenes (and in Gohda's extra tip)

The letters from #10 and #11 have a significantly different tone to them, so it's probably reasonable to think that the head's ring has changed hands several times. Maybe #10 gets killed and #11 steals the ring from the corpse?

[Ithekro]

Who needs a Pyramid Head. We got Stakes, a mess of bunny girls, Iron Maidens, a mess of sexy demons, furnature, and Beatrices.