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Old 2016-07-17, 14:33   Link #61
SPARTAN 119
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Considering fact that the contest specifically points alternate world "fantasy", I wonder if they also banned other forms of alternate world travel, which, quite frankly, I would like to see more of, and you can do lots of interesting things with. The example that comes to mind is the 2000 anime Now and Then, Here and There, which involved transporting the protagonist to a post apocalyptic "crapsack world".

In fact, on a semi-related not, I am writing (off and on, anyway) a Now and Then, Here and There/Gate crossover- similar plot and themes (military, large scale contact between alternate worlds) to Gate, but with the removal of the harem themes, and will have the other-worlders pose an actual threat, at least in a guerilla war, if not in direct combat.
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Old 2016-07-20, 15:28   Link #62
RobotCat
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Originally Posted by felix View Post
If we're gonna go naming and shaming, I'll just add "stuck in VR MMO" nonsense to the list of things we could use less of.

I've yet to see one where the plot, aside from the first opening chapters doesn't just fall apart.

That said, worlds where they have "game-like" rules for comic reliaf or other purposes are generally interesting and nice.
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Overlord, Log Horizon, as well as No Game No Life, DanMachi, as well as various manga (eg. Not Lives) fall in the category of "worlds with game-like rules" for me. Because it's a case of aside from characters believing they are "maybe" in a VRMMO the world doesn't appear to be a VRMMO other then the rules it follows or presents to the characters (which are always inconsistent to mmo rules too).

This is kind of more clear in things like Upgrade Specialist in Another World, where the "protgonist" (if we can call him that) travels though the VRMMO to another dimension where he gets disintegrated and his soul along with the VRMMO tome of upgrading gets merged with another person of that world (allowing him to be subject to MMO upgrade rules). The world is not a VRMMO, the protagnist who dies is a VRMMO character and the real person at the same time, the rules of the world apply still to the new protagonist, but now there's also VRMMO rules that apply.

Series like Overlord, No Game No Life, Log Horizon and so forth are from my perspective part of that theme of Upgrade Specialist: "realworld merged with mmo" more so then "inside a VRMMO." But it's all very subjective, that just how I see it.
I'd actually like to see more stuck inside VRMMOs where its not some alternate world, but an actual MMO. So far really only .hack//sign and SAO do it properly. The other anime/LN where the protagonists get stuck in a world with MMO rules lack the kind of topics that .hack/sign and SAO touch upon that I'd like to see expanded.

VRMMOs are a really interesting topic. The recent augmented reality craze that's starting with Pokemon Go shows that there's a huge potential for story telling and interesting topics. EVE Online also shows us how there could be really interesting twists and drama just from game mechanics and guild drama alone, but most stories that try their hands at this genre fail to do anything really interesting with it.
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Old 2016-07-20, 15:52   Link #63
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
The Raildex clone I know is Strike the Blood. Rental Magica is close to Index, but it came from roughly the same period.
As for IS, the series was hurt by the switch to a new illustrator and due to author-related issues.
Strike the blood isn't really popular though for a dengeki series. I kind of refrain from calling it a raildex clone though as I don't see much similarities besides the magic-science stuff.

But the IS clones of saijaku bahamut and masou gakuen aren't experiencing the same success either. So far, the only recent breakout lns are all isekai like ngnl, konosuba, overlord, and rezero. While danmachi isn't isekai, it's like a better written SAO pre- alicization. Oregairu, Saenai heroine and sukasuka probably made it because they are well written. Is there anything else I'm missing with hits from the recent years?
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Old 2016-07-20, 19:10   Link #64
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ReZero is actually one of the better ones since the story and world doesn't just bend over to the protagonist

that being said, it it seems there's an awful awful lot of reincarnation web novels though
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Old 2016-07-20, 19:42   Link #65
Marcus H.
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ReZero is actually one of the better ones since the story and world doesn't just bend over to the protagonist
I personally feel that Re:Zero is "swinging to the opposite extreme". But that's just me.
It's as if there's no middle ground.
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Old 2016-07-21, 09:33   Link #66
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Well, being dropped into a world where you don't know your left from right has a tendency to land you in a lot of shit, on top of their own character flaws not doing them any favors. But they could also stand to level them up eventually before they beat a dead horse. Pun intended
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Old 2016-07-21, 10:12   Link #67
Marcus H.
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Thing is, it was never a problem when Aoi Blink or El Hazard showed up.
The problem is more about the overall quality of the story and not necessarily whether the story is fellating the otherworldliness of the protagonist.
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Old 2016-07-21, 10:19   Link #68
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True, but Re:ZERO also thoroughly illustrates the MCs thought process, addresses its own plot devices, and liberates its major characters from archetype prisons

Sounds like a good story to me~
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Old 2016-07-23, 01:03   Link #69
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Just pointing out that darker doesn't automatically mean better, and that is the misconception some production committees, project financiers, and even viewers often commit. My biggest gripe here is that some people use their "appreciation" of grim stories to justify their superiority complex over shows that are less gloomy ("moeshit" in their own words).

Well, this is out on a slight tangent, but I just want to stamp my point on Re:Zero, among other shows.
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Old 2016-07-23, 02:42   Link #70
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You makes it sound like Re:Zero's sole selling point is that it is darker and edgier. Which is wrong. Re:Zero is appreciated for taking cliche from the isekai genre and subverting it in a more logical and, arguably, realistic direction. Subaru is a bumbling otaku. This means that, ie, he is not going to suddenly gain charisma and delivers passionate speeches that will sway the "medieval screwheads" (to quote Ash Williams from Army of Darkness), and he actually made a fool of himself in the 13th episode in front of the Court. His liberal values from the 21st century is not going to win the people over. And that is just an example.

If that kind of direction is repulsive to you, you still have Konosuba who is to Isekai genre what Slayers was to high fantasy. Subversive, but in the more comedic direction.
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Old 2016-07-23, 04:52   Link #71
Marcus H.
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Being a subversion isn't exactly my gripe with Re:Zero. To those who know me, I have been a staunch anti-despair anime fan. I have made some sour remarks on Muv-Luv, Danganronpa and RWBY's Volume 3 finale, and I found Urobuchi's take on the Nasuverse (Fate/Zero) and the magical girl concept (PMMM) as interesting but eventually boring.

Simply put, I do not understand why people can appreciate a show that makes you feel sad.

That said, I also did not like how Re:Zero has been called a "more realistic" take on the isekai genre and I do not appreciate its attempt to subvert certain conventions in that genre. I seriously don't fucking care about those tropes, and being a subversion of some trope has been overdone lately, to the point that it could be just as overdone as the stories that follow genre conventions to the letter.

Quote:
If that kind of direction is repulsive to you, you still have Konosuba who is to Isekai genre what Slayers was to high fantasy. Subversive, but in the more comedic direction.
I enjoyed Koreha Zombie Desuka, but I could probably absorb Konosuba better if Kazuma and Lalatina weren't there. Slayers, for all its comedy, is not a subversion in my opinion. It's as fantasy as fantasy anime could get.
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Old 2016-07-23, 05:50   Link #72
felix
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You makes it sound like Re:Zero's sole selling point is that it is darker and edgier.
Given how the episode thread is filled with people who are prepared to attack on sight when someone with a different view on Subaru even agrees with them (not a typo) it's not really out of the question.

There's also been quite a few of these shows with "edgy" themes, where it's not really a complex drama, it's dark but also sunshine and roses often enough, and it has interesting but not really complicated or philosophical themes mostly reliant on the idiotic behavior of either the protagonist or everyone around him. We might as well start a new "edgelord" genre for them, much like we have souls games now due to demon souls, dark souls and so on in games.

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Which is wrong. Re:Zero is appreciated for taking cliche from the isekai genre and subverting it in a more logical and, arguably, realistic direction.
Speak for yourself. Some of us don't even give 3 episodes to the really dumb isekai shows so "subverting" here doesn't even register. Its not realistic either, it's more like just very deus ex machina ish with an extremely underpowered sometimes-dumb character getting his way. If we were talking realistic characters would actually die, permanently. Also, Subaru could very easily have started selling his pandora's box of knowledge to the highest bidder from day1 and gained enough influence in a matter of hours to achieve most of his goals easier; but conveniently he's a giant idiot in everything and slow to grasp the obvious. It's at it's core as standard dumb isekai when it comes to Subaru as it gets.

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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Subaru is a bumbling otaku. This means that, ie, he is not going to suddenly gain charisma and delivers passionate speeches that will sway the "medieval screwheads" (to quote Ash Williams from Army of Darkness), and he actually made a fool of himself in the 13th episode in front of the Court. His liberal values from the 21st century is not going to win the people over. And that is just an example.
All of that just makes him a boring character. To me this is the same as writing-in the times he has to go to the toilet. It doesn't add anything, and even mistakes need to have a purpose otherwise they're just filler. Some of Subaru's mistakes feels like the author is trying to point things out to a 3year old, so it's hard to give them any merit story wise. The events of last episode could have very simply been written as a few lines of dialog illustrating how he's incompetent in negotiations, and it would have achieved the same goal. Actually the entire episode could have skipped to him telling Rem how he failed.

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If that kind of direction is repulsive to you, you still have Konosuba who is to Isekai genre what Slayers was to high fantasy. Subversive, but in the more comedic direction.
Kunosuba isn't subverting anything. Neither is re:zero really—dumb main characters is almost like a definition of the genre. If anything Hai to Gensou no Grimgar is the one with subversive elements, or lack of traditional elements.

Also, there's very little merit to calling "X subverting Y" since just like a cheap magic trick it only works once. You're saying it like all a series needs to do is shit on another one to get 100 points. Re:zero is good example, for all everyone might be up in arms in defending poor idiotic Subaru, the series could replace Subaru and the world and premise would still hold it up (unlike something like Grimgar where the characters are also "weak" but can't be replaced). On the other hand you would have a much weaker show if you kept Subaru and replaced everything else—even if you kept the death-reset premise.
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Old 2016-07-23, 07:13   Link #73
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Thing is, it was never a problem when Aoi Blink or El Hazard showed up.
El Hazard is one of my all-time favorite anime shows, and was also my gateway anime (i.e. the anime show that played the biggest role in selling me on anime as a whole, several years ago).

Yes, it's a very well-balanced and creative fantasy/sci-fi "traveling to another world" story. And in my opinion, it's part of a crop of strong 90s fantasy anime (alongside shows like Escaflowne, Magic Knight Rayearth, and The Slayers). For whatever reason, modern anime doesn't make fantasy anime like they used to.

My best educated guess is that the modern LN style of fantasy has almost completely dominated the market, squeezing out the sort of fantasy anime you saw in the 90s. Sometimes a (sub)genre really needs a good kick in the pants just to break it out of its monotony and complacency. Sometimes it's good for heavily used tropes to be deconstructed and/or subverted in order to challenge creators to try something different for a change. This short story contest ban clearly suggests a (sub)genre in need of change and diversification.

Maybe Re:Zero can "combo break" modern isekai stories enough to allow a new El Hazard type of show to arise. I'd certainly love to see it.


Quote:
The problem is more about the overall quality of the story and not necessarily whether the story is fellating the otherworldliness of the protagonist.
Spoiler for El Hazard and Escaflowne comparisons:


Re:Zero gets us closer to these excellent 90s fantasy shows than any other isekai story I've seen recently.

And some of us are simply sick and tired of isekai stories that "fellate the otherworldliness of the protagonist".


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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
You makes it sound like Re:Zero's sole selling point is that it is darker and edgier. Which is wrong. Re:Zero is appreciated for taking cliche from the isekai genre and subverting it in a more logical and, arguably, realistic direction.
Excellent post. I completely agree.


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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post

Simply put, I do not understand why people can appreciate a show that makes you feel sad.
Madoka Magica's TV series ending didn't make me feel sad. I found it beautiful and uplifting.

I generally don't like shows that make me feel sad. But I do like shows where the main protagonist is truly challenged. Because strong challenges tend to bring greater intensity, up the stakes, increase the sense of drama and suspense. Perhaps more importantly, strong challenges show what a character is made of.


Quote:
I seriously don't fucking care about those tropes, and being a subversion of some trope has been overdone lately, to the point that it could be just as overdone as the stories that follow genre conventions to the letter.
I completely disagree. I also completely disagree with felix's last post, but this post has already gone long enough, so for now I'll put aside the specific points of my disagreement with felix.
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Old 2016-07-23, 08:06   Link #74
Marcus H.
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Madoka Magica's TV series ending didn't make me feel sad. I found it beautiful and uplifting.

I generally don't like shows that make me feel sad. But I do like shows where the main protagonist is truly challenged. Because strong challenges tend to bring greater intensity, up the stakes, increase the sense of drama and suspense. Perhaps more importantly, strong challenges show what a character is made of.
The catharsis probably didn't work for me. I'm prone to losing the feeling of catharsis the more suffering the character experiences or when the show was created with the sole purpose of generating negative feelings.

Quote:
I completely disagree. I also completely disagree with felix's last post, but this post has already gone long enough, so for now I'll put aside the specific points of my disagreement with felix.
Visitor message please. I'm a bit interested to hear about those.

And yeah, still on a tangent. Anyone, feel free to steer us back.
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Old 2016-07-23, 08:55   Link #75
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
And yeah, still on a tangent. Anyone, feel free to steer us back.
Isekai stories as a genre are fine as long as there's a decent variety in the kinds of stories told.

Re: Zero, Grimgar, Overlord, Konosuba = GOOD.

Loser in real world who gets transported/reincarnated to/in another world as a badass is getting tiring at the moment. Though there's nothing technically wrong with it; its about the volume of similar story beginnings.

There, back on track.
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Old 2016-07-23, 09:21   Link #76
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Well, since Marcus was interested in hearing these points, I'll share them here. I'm going to put this in spoiler space both to save space, and also for the benefit of those who aren't fully caught up on Re:Zero (or haven't watched it at all yet).


Spoiler for Reply to felix on Re:Zero/Subaru:
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Old 2016-07-23, 11:06   Link #77
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Speaking of Isekai theme, do you think Zero No Tsukaima was the one that popularized this theme?
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Old 2016-07-23, 11:44   Link #78
Akito Kinomoto
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Just pointing out that darker doesn't automatically mean better, and that is the misconception some production committees, project financiers, and even viewers often commit. My biggest gripe here is that some people use their "appreciation" of grim stories to justify their superiority complex over shows that are less gloomy ("moeshit" in their own words).

Well, this is out on a slight tangent, but I just want to stamp my point on Re:Zero, among other shows.
And none of what I listed in my previous post is mutually exclusive to darker stories: IE it eventually boiled down to quality because that's how Madoka Magica withstood the test of time while Uta Kata didn't
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Old 2016-07-23, 12:08   Link #79
felix
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
And yeah, still on a tangent. Anyone, feel free to steer us back.
Yeah, it's probably fine to talk about anything other then re:zero as an example, since it's ongoing and too "hot" that it will just derail the thread. I'm more then happy just to pretend it doesn't exist (while it's still ongoing) for the sake of having a meaningful discussion on the actual topic (there's plenty of fish in the sea).

.

Here's my problem the currently trendy "I don't like characters that are good at what they do" angle.

It feels like its people noticing there's a problem, but pointing the finger (on mass) at the completely wrong thing.

If we discount the "surprise" endings and satires, which are always fun, these stories can only really go in a few combinations...
  1. the World shits on the Protagonist, but the Protagonist is a badass
    I'll admit I'm a sucker for these, not so much because I like watching a badass do badass things (though that's fun too) but because I like seing the World the protagonist relies on either getting wooped, deconstructed and sometimes even the "big Brother" figure getting smashed to the ground. It's easier to appreciate the complexity of something when it's broken into pieces. A lot of the times, even when the Protagonist gets a greater then life image associated with him in time, the story doesn't really diverge too much from aspects which make the Protagonist look like "the little guy," which is core to the fun of these types of stories as well.

    Many people seems to despise this formula recently.
  2. the Protagnist is a dumbass, but the World will make sure the eventually he gets his way
    This is basically the same as 1 but flipped. I generally don't like these very much because instead of watching a deconstruction of the world we get a deconstruction of the character. In a way that can be good, and I don't mean that in the meaningless literature critic jargon wagon way, but actually legitimately fun experience. The problem, for me at least, is that most of the time the character is a depressing wreck, by simple definition of the formula. I have to say I'm far more indifferent to depressing worlds then depressing characters. Watching a character be a clueless idiot forever is just not my cup of tea.

    My biggest complain though is that fundamentally the formula ends up looking from a certain angle like a puzzle that solves itself. Or like a game where the only element to it is LUCK. Neighter of which I like, at all. Yes if you have a badass character that in a sense is also like a self fulfilling prophecy but I can more easily accept a character being the deus ex machina rather then the entire world being a giant deus ex machina; and it's obvious there's gonna be at least 1 deus ex machina anyway so take your pick.
  3. the World shits on the Protagonist and the Protagonist is a dumbass BUT the Protagonist becomes badass though some trails or training
    This is more or less just a basic variation of wiggling case 2 then swaping in case 1, maybe even cycle it a bit where you revert to case 2 once in a while.

    Personally I find it dumb if it goes overboard with the cycles after the first one. It's okey to do it as many times as the story feels like it, but I think it makes the formula very weak when it resets the stage to essentially square 0 every so often instead of just tacking a few steps back while maintaining what it achieved so far.
  4. the World shits on the Protagonist, the Protagonist is a dumbass, THEN then Protagonist gets badass-powerup but is still SHIT; the World only really loses to the Protagonist in the last moment of the story after a random lucky event or change of hearth
    This one usually gets either endless bitching into the ground OR praises to high heavens for it's [insert fantasy interpretation and artificial enthusiasm]. It all depends on luck. It's also commonly (and very annoyingly I might add) confused or associated with case 1, but unfortunately it doesn't have any of the good points, it's usually just an angst fest of the MC and the world is often very shallow since the focus is usually on the MC as the terrible idiot with powers.

    This formula for me is the antithesis of a realistic story, the byproduct of misinterpreting the idea of "well he has to also lose to be realistic." A loser-Protagonist losing doesn't really harmonize with anything; it's like in speech repeating yourself several times. And also, "always losing" is logically just as unrealistic as "always winning" if we want to go with the literal interpretation.

    From my experience the theme and just about everything else (sound and visuals etc) has to be spectacular, since otherwise at best series like this only have "its different" when compared to the first 3 cases; which due to being fairly common failstory pattern don't really have that going for them either.

    Pretty sure it's safe to say this is the formula with the fewest fans.
  5. the World likes the Protagonist and the Protagonist is a badass or semi-badass
    This is kind of what I see in most of the moe versions. Usually the people of the other world have animal features or are all cute. Because why not right? everything is all rainbow and sunshine anyway, and disputes are all misunderstandings.

    Essentially this is usually a pure and peaceful world deconstruction. Like a slice of life shows.

    They're fun in small chunks but I feel they most of the time drag on far too long for their own good. Again, just like slice of life shows.
  6. the World shits on the Protagonist, and the Protagonist is kind of shit or bellow average; the Protagonist might become average at best
    This is like 3, yet another hybrid of 1 and 2. I placed it lower since it's very niche and rarely seen IMO. Think Grimgar is the only one in recent memory. The basic idea is that just like case 1 you have heavy focus on the world but instead of the whole world you just take a very precise slice of it, and instead of having the characters (antagonists included) be supreme experts you just lower the bar enough where what would be otherwise grunts are now boss-level problems. This fundamentally solves issues with case 2 as well, since the powers involved are much easier to reason with, and the solutions can be very simple and "realistic." At least in Grimgar's case this feels like it does the best job at establishing a connection between the viewer and the characters.

    I'm kind of biased towards supreme expert level characters since I want the story to be forced in exploring the entire world it created not just a small little slice, but this formula works well enough for me to be happy—it's also hard to complain about character deconstruction when the spectrum goes from the more down to earth incompetent-to-competent instead of dumbass-to-instantjesus.
  7. The World is random and the ending is usually also random.
    This usually means the characters are a sidenote, the show is all big "promise for greatness" or full of cliffhangers.

    My assesment of these shows is that characters might as well be elements of the scenary or non-existent, and exist generally only to give the impression of a direction. So it doesn't really matter what and how they are. Though if the show is to have any hope you'd hope they're strong enough to carry the show on their shoulders. But...

    I generally don't like these betrayal-of-expectations shows, so no further comment.

(writing the list took a bit more space then I intended but ohwell)

Okey so...

It all boils down to case 1 or 2, since 3 and 6 are just 1 & 2, and 4 & 7 are too different to matter.

If we're looking at it from purely the perspective of "too powerfull" you're basically looking at two sides of the same coin. You basically have the World on one side, and the Protagonist on the other. Yes they're like apples and oranges but while I may have a preference for either apples or oranges they're not as different as water and fine wine (or whatever expensive alcohol you like).

If either case 1 or case 2 is bad, it's because they're bad at what they try to achieve, either world building or character deconstruction, whichever you're preferred poison is. They're fundamentally not bad due to the formula, the formula is just preference. And you can't blame a series going for character deconstruction for shit world building or a series going for world deconstruction for having characters that can actually achieve the world shattering events required to deconstruct the world. It's like complaining why salt isn't sweet or sugar salty.

It pains me to see people complain that a show is bad because the character was "too powerful" when really the problem is the world wasn't interesting enough to support that character. Having a more bland character in a boring world is not gonna suddenly make it any better. If a character being too powerful would be an instant fail then shows like Dragon Ball, One Punch Man, Guren Lagann, etc would have never been enjoyable.

Another divergent problem I see is that,

People seem to take this to the logical next step of "I don't like characters that are excellent at something." To give a recent example, in the series Alderamin on the Sky the main character, which is from the words of the story itself foreshadowed to become a great general, is apparently in the opinion of a many devoid of the right to be one. Because obviously if he has achievement and doesn't have "MENTAL problems" (war PTSD or whatever) it's never gonna be good.

God forbid the heroes of the story be actual you know "heroes."

I know I'm repeating myself but I want to emphasize as bluntly as possible: a LOT of people have a apparently very strong opinion that Mental/Psychological Problems are some kind of "key" feature of good characterization. It's extremely silly and unhealthy.
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Old 2016-07-27, 12:59   Link #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post

Here's my problem the currently trendy "I don't like characters that are good at what they do" angle.
Anime has very recently had a stretch of extreme hyper-competency in some of its most prominent male leads.

SAO's Kirito, Mahouka's Tatsuya, Aldnoah.Zero's Inaho, and (from what I've heard) No Game No Life's Sora.

Each of these four anime shows have a strong fanbase, and each of these four anime shows were heavily talked about, among the most popular anime shows around when they aired. After this stretch of
hyper-competent male leads, maybe a lot of anime fans have a hunger for more flawed and more struggling and more emotionally colorful/expressive characters.

Sometimes the most popular characters of today are a response to too much of a certain type of character in the very recent past.

If you don't like current trends, then give it time - In a couple years, you may have some lead characters that are all responses to Re:Zero's Subaru.


Quote:
It pains me to see people complain that a show is bad because the character was "too powerful" when really the problem is the world wasn't interesting enough to support that character.
I think you might be underestimating how people just want a change sometimes. A change from what was very recently dominant. They want to see a show go in a different direction with a different type of lead character. And I don't see anything illegitimate about this.


Quote:
People seem to take this to the logical next step of "I don't like characters that are excellent at something." To give a recent example, in the series Alderamin on the Sky the main character, which is from the words of the story itself foreshadowed to become a great general,
This in itself is arguably a problem. Having an actual narrator voice tell you about how great the main character is and/or is going to be can easily come across as kinda obnoxious. For one thing, it's a pretty strong implied spoiler. I think people prefer excellence in their characters when it simply arises from their words and deeds, and we're not force-fed exposition telling us about how glorious this character is. It's fine if the main character gets some compliments or even glory, but it's probably best if this comes after the main character has accomplished something worthwhile.


Quote:

I know I'm repeating myself but I want to emphasize as bluntly as possible: a LOT of people have a apparently very strong opinion that Mental/Psychological Problems are some kind of "key" feature of good characterization. It's extremely silly and unhealthy.
Why? Why is it extremely silly and unhealthy?

PTSD is a real thing. A very serious real thing. Just doing some read-ups on Vietnam war veterans should make that abundantly clear.

Many people like characters and stories that feel authentic. We like characters that feel human, warts and all. We often like to see characters handle horrible difficulties the way that we ourselves would likely handle them - Which is generally not with silky smooth hyper-competency.

If a character witnesses numerous loved ones die, for example, I want to see some evidence that s/he's been hurt and bereaved by that. I don't want to see someone that simply soldiers on like some sort of robot, showing little evidence of feelings of loss or despair.

Of course this varies depending on what the main character is put through. The less severe the situation, the less warranted heavy duty mental/psychological problems are. But if a main character is put through a truly hellish situation, than I want to see a human response to that, not one that would even make Star Trek's Spock blush. And I get the sense that I'm not alone here.


A lot of this comes down to "humans vs. heroes". I like watching heroes myself sometimes, as I'm a big fan of superheroes. But sometimes it's emotionally engaging to see a very human character struggle against difficult odds. And even with very heroic characters, a sense of human vulnerability (especially at a psychological/emotional level) can make them more relatable.
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