Main characters in harem anime are all jerks?

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yeah, Ranma is a bit of a special case.

Most of his fiance wannabes are, well, rather crazy about it, and Ranma could be risking serious harm to himself if he was to flat-out reject either of them (or, alternatively, clearly pick one of them). Also, Ranma's interest in romance/sex is ironically minimal at best. So it's not like he has much interest in being in a romance to begin with.

His lack of choosing I can roll with, and not really hold it against him. It's frustrating (after watching several seasons of Ranma), but I don't hold it against him at all.

I seem to remember hearing that a lot of the humour from Ranma for the Japanese audience came from the fact that the Japanese take obligations very seriously, and Ranma kept racking up sets of obligations to various characters such that he would never actually be able to fulfill them. If this is the case, it seems likely to me that there are constraints on his actions that may not immediately be apparent to an American audience.

[npcomplete]

Originally Posted by daeyeth

When you think about it...aren't all protagonists of harem anime fundamentally flawed in his morals? Even though he's portrayed as honest and kind hearted or something, make no mistake...he's definitely a two-timing bastard.

Suuuuure he'll be thinking "Oh I like her...but I don't to hurt to other girl!" But he's using that as an excuse to string all of them along at the same time. All he's gotta do is choose one girl and there, problems solved. By not choosing anyone, all the girls think they have a chance.

Well, sometimes when the guy makes it clear who his choice is and other girls still pursue him. But if that's the case, then he would reject them if was actually a decent guy! Suuuure he'll be thinking "Nooo don't hug me, I have a girlfriend!"....then push her away and reject her you wuss!

Harem 101, the guy will never reject physical affection even if he's thinking don't do it.


Obviously harem anime require a suspension of disbelief, since if they weren't morally ambiguous, that'd be the end of the story lol. This is just a discussion for fun

So:
mean and decisive = good morals
kind and indecisive = bad morals?
Also, not sure how he could be considered "two-timing bastard" when he hasn't even committed to anyone yet..

[daeyeth]

Originally Posted by npcomplete

So:
mean and decisive = good morals
kind and indecisive = bad morals?
Also, not sure how he could be considered "two-timing bastard" when he hasn't even committed to anyone yet..

lol it's because he hasn't committed to anyone that he becomes a two-timing bastard. When there are multiple girls vying for your romantic interests, the guy has to choose or else he's being totally unfair to the girls.

Yeah yeah they all have hearts of gold I'm not saying they're actually bad guys, I'm exaggerating for the fun of it. But their actions are definitely hypocritical. Also, if your mean but decisive, of course you're still a jerk...you're just not a two-timing jerk.

[FateAnomaly]

I don't like those indecisive characters myself. The romance i root for are pretty much the ones where the guy choose 1 and stick to it no matter what happens.

[Nukerjsr]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I often hear people make arguments like "the protagonists are losers because the audience is made up of losers too". On the contrary, the protagonists are losers because it elevates both the heroines and the viewer! That's why, in fact, I don't suspect the average demographic of people who watch this sort of anime is any different than those who watch most any other sort of anime. The "ronery" stereotype mostly exists because certain people want to distance themselves from certain other more vocal portions of the fanbase for these sorts of shows; it's like how some people have their collection of "cool action/fighting/sports games/anime/etc." for when their friends come over, but secretly enjoy romance/harem stuff and just don't want anyone to know for fear of being "found out". One would think that people who enjoy anime would have gotten over the notion that "wish-fulfillment fiction" is a bad thing, but alas... To be clear, I'm not saying that you specifically were alluding to this particular point, but I often see people take the argument that far.

Elevates them? No way. I mean, Slice-of-Life put it just right, if we do not like the protagonist, then we won't sympathize for these girls who find his meek-ness insanely attractive. And the viewers are going to share this rage because both or all partners in this odd relationship have this level of ignorance that they probably won't address.

I do agree with you how romantic/harem stories are usually the type that are hidden away. However, bad ecchi shows like that give a bad example for BOTH genders quite honestly.

Originally Posted by chikorita157

The problem is, shows like Clannad, Air and Kanon aren't really harems to begin with. Sure there is a few guys and a lot of girls which could make it look like a harem, but in fact not since harems require the male character to already go out with more than one girl. The problem is, the way Clannad, Air, and Kanon animes are constructed, there is no possible way for the lead to have interests with other girls or vice versa, even in the visual novel since they only allow you to go in one of the girl's arc and don't let you go to others at the same time. The more accurate way to categorize these shows is in the comedy-drama genre.

"Harem" does not necessarily mean "Romantic Comedy" or "Ecchi." Romance IS involved, but it doesn't have to be a consistent fanservice-festival of groping and flashing and tsundere-actions. Even while those are dramatic, the harem tension does play some part on the male protagonist, who is usually solving the problems or is acting as an independent third party.

Originally Posted by FateAnomaly

I don't like those indecisive characters myself. The romance i root for are pretty much the ones where the guy choose 1 and stick to it no matter what happens.

I think those male leads are 50%/50% when it comes to liking them. Those who are devoted can be incredibly likable and they have the purest relationship. My favorite probably from those would be Nagasumi from Seto no Hayanome. He's a person who understands his temptations, but stays loyal.

However, I hate the scenarios whenever there was some kind of childhood promise. A person who forgets the months and/or years they have spend with several characters, just because they remember one promise, they made to one girl, after meeting her one day, sometime 5-10 years ago. That really just puts a damper on the whole thing because it really defeats the point to having a harem in the first place.

[Ash Falls Town]

Originally Posted by daeyeth

lol it's because he hasn't committed to anyone that he becomes a two-timing bastard. When there are multiple girls vying for your romantic interests, the guy has to choose or else he's being totally unfair to the girls.

In this argument you're basically saying that if multiple people like you you have to like one of them back.

Anyway many harem anime leave few opportunities for the main character to say that they don't like a character romantically. Often time there are either girls with over the top romantic gestures making it nigh impossible to turn them down at that moment and not pay attention even if you do say I don't love you. Refuse their confessions and they'll act the same way.

Other times there are girls who "obviously" like the main guy but refuse to admit it to themselves. A situation like this generally only leads to passive aggressiveness which can't really be squashed with a "I don't love you".

Plus generally at least some of the girls aren't really serious about the guy and just like teasing them. In cases like these taking the affection seriously is often seen as bad form. They aren't taking this seriously so you shouldn't either. Even still the passive aggressive one still often gets jealous of these scenes due to refusing to acknowledge their own feelings which leads them to acknowledge their feelings even less.

Rarely do you find (non-joke) characters in harem anime completely honest with their own feelings (It's uncommon in real life too). Feelings are complicated things.

[daeyeth]

Originally Posted by Ash Falls Town

In this argument you're basically saying that if multiple people like you you have to like one of them back.

Absolutely. You either accept one or you reject all of them. The harem heroes always make it such a big fiasco by being indecisive about it.

For the rest of your post, well, yeah. That's why harem anime that have stuff like you described require a suspension of disbelief: you turn your brain off and simply enjoy the silliness.

[qwertyuiopz]

the males arent jerks its the females that are idiots lol

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Nukerjsr

Elevates them? No way. I mean, Slice-of-Life put it just right, if we do not like the protagonist, then we won't sympathize for these girls who find his meek-ness insanely attractive. And the viewers are going to share this rage because both or all partners in this odd relationship have this level of ignorance that they probably won't address.

I see what you're saying, but in practice I don't think that's often the way things play out. No matter how much frustration many viewers feel with the protagonist, the tendency to "cheer" for one's favourite heroine seems to be there regardless. Even if they don't think the protagonist is worthy, they hope for the heroine's happiness in spite of it all. And, in the end, these heroines still get "worshipped" through merchandise sales, in "favourite heroine" contests, and so on. The arguable-exception to this may be the "chosen heroine", who may end up being the least popular of all the heroines in the show due to their actions involving the protagonist. But even that serves to elevate the "underdog" heroines, so works out in the balance of raising the profile of the heroines at the expense of the protagonist.

I suppose another way to put it would be that a weak protagonist brings out the individual strengths of the heroines, and allows them to not be "upstaged" in certain senses. The show is about the heroines and the protagonist is along for the ride, as opposed to shounen action fare that is typically all about the protagonist.

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

There is not really a contradiction here. I don't know if the harem fanbase really consists of "losers" but being able to score in a harem situation and any remotely realistic situation are two very different things. Or two put it this way: You can be 10 times as skilled in relationship things as the typical harem protagonist and still die a virgin.

That may be true, but the contradiction I was trying to get at was the opposite -- there isn't necessarily any correlation between the attitude of the viewer and the weaknesses of the protagonist, as the show does not necessarily require the viewer to be able to "relate" to the weak and down-played "hero". The downplayed-hero brings more of the focus on the heroines. So in other words, it isn't that you could be "skilled but not score", it's that you could be scoring and still enjoy the fantasy. But I suppose, if we were to follow some of the logic expressed in this thread, that'd make some viewers immoral jerks as well. I suppose I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that assessment.

[npcomplete]

Originally Posted by daeyeth

lol it's because he hasn't committed to anyone that he becomes a two-timing bastard. When there are multiple girls vying for your romantic interests, the guy has to choose or else he's being totally unfair to the girls.

Yeah yeah they all have hearts of gold I'm not saying they're actually bad guys, I'm exaggerating for the fun of it. But their actions are definitely hypocritical. Also, if your mean but decisive, of course you're still a jerk...you're just not a two-timing jerk.

It's like you have different semantics. If there's a mutual understanding of non-commitment how can he be two-timing or hypocritical? They don't even kiss until he finally chooses!

Again with mutual understanding, if the girls very well know they are competing for his interest, how can it be unfair to them?

Originally Posted by daeyeth

Absolutely. You either accept one or you reject all of them.

Not unless you accept polygamy

The harem heroes always make it such a big fiasco by being indecisive about it

Obviously, you can write a story where he chooses one right from the beginning. The show then becomes a 30 min OVA. end of story, lol


Still I suppose these kinds of shows, not just harems, appeal to me in a way because I can understand the indecisiveness as I often deliberate for a long time over most important decisions myself. After all, remember Bush "The Decider"?

[roriconfan]

Harems are harems indeed because the lead is indesicive. If he was active and desicive, we wouldn't have a harem but an ecchi comedy with a lot of violent retribution at best. So, they are supposed to be like that by default.

I don't like such series in general (not just the leads). In real life, girls don't like spineless weak boys (unless they are f*ed up MILFs or something). If they are ignored more than a few times, they dump the guy and head for other more active dudes. As for the heart of gold, I hardly believe young girls like this sort of trait. They mostly care about money, good looks, a car... If they are ugly and over thirty, I understand looking for a meak guy with a good heart to marry. But young and beautiful? No f*ing way. These series are simply impossible to accept.

So it's not just the leads. The entire genre is messed up and unreal as hell.

[daeyeth]

Originally Posted by npcomplete

If there's a mutual understanding of non-commitment how can he be two-timing or hypocritical? They don't even kiss until he finally chooses!

Again with mutual understanding, if the girls very well know they are competing for his interest, how can it be unfair to them?

Should they have to compete over him? Like, you know the Bachelor reality show? Where the guy gets to go on dates and develop relationships with all the girl at the same time? It's exactly like that!

He's reaping all the benefits by being non-committed. Take Ichigo 100%, the perfect example. Naturally as time goes on, he develops deeper and deeper relationships with all the girls at the same time, even while they all know that eventually there will only be one.

You wouldn't compete over someone in real life would you, if it wasn't a reality show? The girls definitely don't like the situation but they bear with it because of the character flaws in harem girls which you have to have a suspension of disbelief on. Doesn't matter if it's unintentional, he's still taking advantage of them and the situation in his actions.

The other girls will end up being even more hurt when it eventually ends. The guy could of saved them the pain. It would of been better to choose one and save the others all that needless heartache.

Yeah, if were they entering a polygonal relationship, it would be okay. But they're not, all of them are monogamists. It's the same reason why playboys are jerks in real life. He lets girls fight over him.

If there was a piece of food, would you let 3 dogs fight each other over it or would you simply just give it to one dog? Knowing that that's how it would end up anyways?

[npcomplete]

Originally Posted by daeyeth

Should they have to compete over him? Like, you know the Bachelor reality show? Where the guy gets to go on dates and develop relationships with all the girl at the same time? It's exactly like that!

To me "should" or "shouldn't" is something only to be applied to actions that affect other people's rights. It's not something to be used to shape people's behaviors or attitudes or ideas. I'm sorry if that didn't answer your question but all I can say is that I don't have a problem with it as long as it is open and transparent and fair. Yes people will end up disappointed and maybe hurt but you can't avoid that in real life either, just like you can't avoid competition in real life.

As far as the Bachelor goes, well I wouldn't mind a Bachelorette version at all and I did come across an episode of some reality TV dating show once that had exactly that situation.

He's reaping all the benefits by being non-committed. Take Ichigo 100%, the perfect example. Naturally as time goes on, he develops deeper and deeper relationships with all the girls at the same time, even while they all know that eventually there will only be one.

".. they all know that eventually there will only be one."
forgive me for being flippant, but that line just sounds so effing epic!
anyways, yes it's for that reason that I see no problem with it. People shouldn't be responsible for other people's choices.

You wouldn't compete over someone in real life would you, if it wasn't a reality show? The girls definitely don't like the situation but they bear with it because of the character flaws in harem girls which you have to have a suspension of disbelief on. Doesn't matter if it's unintentional, he's still taking advantage of them and the situation in his actions.

The other girls will end up being even more hurt when it eventually ends. The guy could of saved them the pain. It would of been better to choose one and save the others all that needless heartache.

We're not seeing eye to eye here but I don't see how the girls are being taken advantage of when there are no false pretenses. It's not like the lead develops a friendship because he wants something else from them. Are you saying that the lead should say to one, if not all of the girls, "I reject your friendship for your own good because you have a character flaw, have an expectation I may not meet and to spare you disappointment since I may or may not end up dating you" ?

Yeah, if were they entering a polygonal relationship, it would be okay. But they're not, all of them are monogamists. It's the same reason why playboys are jerks in real life. He lets girls fight over him.

If there was a piece of food, would you let 3 dogs fight each other over it or would you simply just give it to one dog? Knowing that that's how it would end up anyways?

There are some big differences in your comparisons to the harem scenario:
- playboys actively have intimate relationships (basically sex) with multiple women who do not want or expect that. It's ironic because in a harem anime, the "harem" aspect is platonic until the lead chooses, then the harem dissolves. The playboy continues the harem after choosing.

- the dogs and the girls in your situation fight with one another. As in trying to ruin the other person (or dog), to prevent them from being able to be chosen. This is very different in anime, where the girls take no action against each other.

Not intending to compare women with dogs or animals at all, but just for the sake of argument, a much more appropriate comparison instead of dogs fighting over food thrown by the owner, is to compare with an owner choosing a dog to adopt. He'll play with all the dogs and show each of them affection before finally choosing one.

In addition all of the above applies to some shoujo reverse-harem manga/anime as well, which I also don't have a problem with.

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Harems are harems indeed because the lead is indesicive. If he was active and desicive, we wouldn't have a harem but an ecchi comedy with a lot of violent retribution at best. So, they are supposed to be like that by default.

I don't like such series in general (not just the leads). In real life, girls don't like spineless weak boys (unless they are f*ed up MILFs or something). If they are ignored more than a few times, they dump the guy and head for other more active dudes. As for the heart of gold, I hardly believe young girls like this sort of trait. They mostly care about money, good looks, a car... If they are ugly and over thirty, I understand looking for a meak guy with a good heart to marry. But young and beautiful? No f*ing way. These series are simply impossible to accept.

So it's not just the leads. The entire genre is messed up and unreal as hell.

If what you say is true, then perhaps it is the real world that is messed up

[fukarming]

Isn't that it is a bit unfair to put all the blame on the Harem male? In fact in most of the harem series the girls who like the male lead never properly confess their feelings, thus making the male unable to reject them.

In Love Hina, we know Shinobu, Makoto, otome and Naru all have feelings for Keitaro. For most of the series Keitaro was committed to the "promised girl" and if any of these girls confess, Keitaro would probably turn them down. Whether love hina is a good anime is up to debate, but I don't think you can say Keitaro is an indecisive jerks.

In most of the dating sim turned Harem anime, the male lead only developed a good relationship with all the girls and only the main girl will developed serious romance with the guy.

Sure there are jerks like Makoto in school days but I don't think all male in harem anime are jerks.

Who else do you think they are jerks in Harem anime besides Makoto? I heard that the main character in ichigo 100% is despicable but I haven't seen that series.

[npcomplete]

Originally Posted by fukarming

Who else do you think they are jerks in Harem anime besides Makoto? I heard that the main character in ichigo 100% is despicable but I haven't seen that series.

Makoto is like the anti-hero of harems
As far as Ichigo 100% goes, "despicable" ? they must've been watching a different show. But who knows what you might think. You should just see it for yourself

[Narona]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

I don't like such series in general (not just the leads). In real life, girls don't like spineless weak boys (unless they are f*ed up MILFs or something). If they are ignored more than a few times, they dump the guy and head for other more active dudes. As for the heart of gold, I hardly believe young girls like this sort of trait. They mostly care about money, good looks, a car... If they are ugly and over thirty, I understand looking for a meak guy with a good heart to marry. But young and beautiful? No f*ing way. These series are simply impossible to accept.

Obviously, you don't know what you are talking about, or it's just Greece that is fucking messed up.

While some girls are like that, there are a whole lot of girls who are in couple with the nice, very kind type of men, even when those men are not rich with a big car. Including in my generation. At least it's like that here. So generalizing, it's insulting. You sound like an old bitter goat.

[Nukerjsr]

Originally Posted by fukarming

Isn't that it is a bit unfair to put all the blame on the Harem male? In fact in most of the harem series the girls who like the male lead never properly confess their feelings, thus making the male unable to reject them.

In Love Hina, we know Shinobu, Makoto, otome and Naru all have feelings for Keitaro. For most of the series Keitaro was committed to the "promised girl" and if any of these girls confess, Keitaro would probably turn them down. Whether love hina is a good anime is up to debate, but I don't think you can say Keitaro is an indecisive jerks.

In most of the dating sim turned Harem anime, the male lead only developed a good relationship with all the girls and only the main girl will developed serious romance with the guy.

Sure there are jerks like Makoto in school days but I don't think all male in harem anime are jerks.

Who else do you think they are jerks in Harem anime besides Makoto? I heard that the main character in ichigo 100% is despicable but I haven't seen that series.

Well with Love Hina, Keitaro is both wrong and right. He isn't necessarily being mean to this girls, but he's leading them up to a bigger fall by not telling them how he truly feels throughout the story.

Here's a question to the Love Hina fans, is anything specific given about his childhood friend who he made this promise with? Did he meet her ONE day and did this or were they actually good friends for a long while? It feels like if Keitaro couldn't remember who she was, then it's kind of pointless to hold out these feelings for some girl. I know this sounds harsh, but it's like he's wasting all the other girl's time by holding out for the mystery girl and it's pretty inconsiderate.

Makoto would probably be the only jerk since he knows he's messing around with other women...but I think many people (like me) can like him to some extent because he actually has sex with them. Considering the amount of slutty characters or teases in these harem shows, it's odd that we can only name two animes where sex actually happens.

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Harems are harems indeed because the lead is indesicive. If he was active and desicive, we wouldn't have a harem but an ecchi comedy with a lot of violent retribution at best. So, they are supposed to be like that by default.

I don't like such series in general (not just the leads). In real life, girls don't like spineless weak boys (unless they are f*ed up MILFs or something). If they are ignored more than a few times, they dump the guy and head for other more active dudes. As for the heart of gold, I hardly believe young girls like this sort of trait. They mostly care about money, good looks, a car... If they are ugly and over thirty, I understand looking for a meak guy with a good heart to marry. But young and beautiful? No f*ing way. These series are simply impossible to accept.

So it's not just the leads. The entire genre is messed up and unreal as hell.

Some women DO want spineless, weak boys but that's so they can domineer over them mentally and sexually. It's a really bad kind of relationship, but its very possible. The kind where the man does everything and gets no kind of respect. Almost like a Pimp Role Reversal. However, none of the girls usually in harem scenarios are truly evil. Even with their tsundere-isms, they aren't apparently evil enough to get rid of men.

I feel like with all the girls who hang out with men in a bad harem series, it sends out a bad message to people. It's like...all of these strong, independent, smart women need a man to get them through the day. And apparently they can't find other man except for Douchey McDouchebag. For the flip side, it tells men the incentive that you don't need to have a pure relationship. (This is deeper than the magical/animal girl thing) It's like, a man doesn't need to try to have a good relationship with a women, he just needs to pick her, and she will take care of him and love him unconditionally for the rest of his life.

Harem animes are like, the best example of love it or hate it anime. Because just about for every series I've watched, I've either loved it to death or hated the shit out of it. I can maybe think of only one harem series that I thought was in the middle.

[Theowne]

I know this sounds harsh, but it's like he's wasting all the other girl's time by holding out for the mystery girl and it's pretty inconsiderate.

If you're actually analyzing the Love Hina plot you're in trouble.

The premise of Love Hina is that a long time ago, he met one girl whose child face he can barely remember, whose adult face he has no inkling of, and that they made a promise to go to Tokyo U. Twenty years later, he doesn't know her name, doesn't know what she looks like, doesn't know if she even remembers his existence, nor does she know anything about him, and he aims for Tokyo U despite repeatedly failing hoping that once he's accepted, he will somehow pick out this girl from entire student body of the university despite having absolutely. no. knowledge. about her at all.

Like I said, this is not a show meant for analysis.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Nukerjsr

Some women DO want spineless, weak boys but that's so they can domineer over them mentally and sexually. It's a really bad kind of relationship, but its very possible. The kind where the man does everything and gets no kind of respect. Almost like a Pimp Role Reversal. However, none of the girls usually in harem scenarios are truly evil. Even with their tsundere-isms, they aren't apparently evil enough to get rid of men.

I feel like with all the girls who hang out with men in a bad harem series, it sends out a bad message to people. It's like...all of these strong, independent, smart women need a man to get them through the day. And apparently they can't find other man except for Douchey McDouchebag. For the flip side, it tells men the incentive that you don't need to have a pure relationship. (This is deeper than the magical/animal girl thing) It's like, a man doesn't need to try to have a good relationship with a women, he just needs to pick her, and she will take care of him and love him unconditionally for the rest of his life.

Actually, I didn't watch/read a lot of harem story, but I read Love Hina. And since a person talked about it, I'll quote something. Even if Keitaro looks weak, he, at times, can show some courage when it's about the ones he cares about (not only Naru). Now I don't know how it is in the other series.

About the generalization that women who date "weak looking" men (clue 1: courage is not always linked to physical appearance or male chauvinist personnality) are awful women who wants to dominate them, and/or that dating a weak looking man means bad relationship is awful (clue 2: not all women are sick and calculating).

[Nukerjsr]

Originally Posted by Narona

Actually, I didn't watch/read a lot of harem story, but I read Love Hina. And since a person talked about it, I'll quote something. Even if Keitaro looks weak, he, at times, can show some courage when it's about the ones he cares about (not only Naru). Now I don't know how it is in the other series.

About the generalization that women who date "weak looking" men (clue 1: courage is not always linked to physical appearance or male chauvinist personnality) are awful women who wants to dominate them, and/or that dating a weak looking man means bad relationship is awful (clue 2: not all women are sick and calculating). What you describe is not love at all.

You are too somebody who don't know a fuck about more than 3 girls, or you too live in a fucking ugly messed up country?

While I can understand that people sound bitter because some women act like that, don't generalize about my kind (the girls) please, or say clearly that you only talk about the complete messed up place you live in.

I know Keitaro can be a courageous person, and is said to be much better in the manga. And while I would normally NOT analyze Love Hina's plot, I'm trying to figure out if the childhood promise really made significance with his choice. Because if it did...and he stuck with that girl, then the story would just be tease.

I'm not saying that's my opinion on women, it's just a situation THAT CAN happen. It's possible for a woman to want spineless man just so they can domineer over them and vice-versa. I didn't say that was love at all.