[Manga] Naruto Chapter 623 Discussion Thread (no new chapter the week of 3/11/13)

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by james0246

Beyond the fact that Kakashi taught them one solid piece of shinobidom (basics of proper chakra control), he never was shown to teach them anything else of real value, especially not how to work as a team

You're forgetting the D-rank missions they did, like catching Tora. Those are designed to foster a sense of teamwork, which is why we see Kakashi supervising them. It clearly worked too, since Naruto and Sasuke managed some decent teamwork against Zabuza.

Compared to Team 9 and 10, Team 7 had no structure, little teamwork and no real drive (Minato's Team 7 also had this problem).

That's the thing. Comparing them to those guys isn't fair, because their abilities work extremely well together, so the teamwork is practically a given. Anyone would look sloppy next to them.

No, that is a problem on Kishimoto's end. Beyond the slapdash excuse of placing the best with the worst (which makes little to no sense)

That's not quite fair. In Lee and Negi's case, and Jiraiya and Orochimaru's as well, it seems to have had a positive effect. If this tradition helped create at least 1 person even a third as good as Jiraiya, it's well worth it.

there was no reason why Team 7 existed. They served no purpose in a military structure and what's worse they didn't even make sense as a cohesive unit (at least if they were all friends or known rivals there might be something worth seeing in their potential teamwork, otherwise they were just three random individual shoved together with no purpose and no real direction (which is a waste of talent and potential))

You're missing the point. As I said earlier, it's quite frankly impossible to expect every single group of graduates to be able to be broken up into cells with complimentary abilities like Team 8 and 10. Most groups won't be ready-made like that. Part of being a genin is to learn. You put people who might not work well immediately on paper and see if they can learn teamwork

And in the end they weren't even properly trained on how to work together.

To be fair, circumstances got in the way, the whole team was together, for what, 3 months or so?

The Team placement was arbitrary, senseless and clearly plot contrived to create drama. Any competent military force would have never created the team even if they were the left-overs...

We only saw the 12 of the graduates, and if the other 9 went into teams, what should they have done with the rest of them?

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

Kakashi was a failure as a teacher (at least for a team). He was experienced and very intelligent but he had no knowledge on how to actually impart knowledge (for a team).

To be fair with the poor guy it was the first time in his life he had to teach kids and he didn't ask for it, it was Sandaime who tasked him with looking after Naruto and then Jiraiya who told him to focus on Sasuke while he took care of Naruto during the Chuunin exam.

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

I've read pretty much everything till this page so i really dont understand the majority talking about a certain itachi with him guessing things right. (who cares about a correct prophecy?)

It's more of a discussion about the old stances of the fanbase on some issues as far I'm concerned . And boredom. And no chapter this week which always allow for more of topic. And boredom.
Never underestimate boredom.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i skimmed through them before i posted that most people didn't agree just to make sure i was right. i was.

There were discussions about Tobi possessing Zetsu parts 3 years ago, a year and a half before you even made this account so I'm really not sure what you're talking about.

so basic that it was basically just me and Hiking_Bear against everyone else...

First there were more than two people who believed that Obito was part of the picture somehow, secondly it wasn't you and Hiking_Bear against the world because you didn't have the same opinion than him on the subject in the first place. He defended his idea(s), you defended your owns and your idea happened to be only vaguely related to what we eventually got. As I have pointed out (and which you didn't care to quote or reply) you thought and stated that Tobi being just Obito was a stupid theory.

Anyway I just can't fathom how you reached the conclusion that people are laughing at you because you made theories that turned out to be somewhat correct in the best of case.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Endscape

You're forgetting the D-rank missions they did, like catching Tora. Those are designed to foster a sense of teamwork, which is why we see Kakashi supervising them. It clearly worked too, since Naruto and Sasuke managed some decent teamwork against Zabuza.

Following a basic plan (you go high, I'll go low) is not real teamwork. Additionally, there was no teamwork in catching Tora in those early chapters. It was Naruto doing the work whilst everyone else mocked him.

Originally Posted by Endscape

That's the thing. Comparing them to those guys isn't fair, because their abilities work extremely well together, so the teamwork is practically a given. Anyone would look sloppy next to them.

And that's my point exactly. In a military organization you would create teams based on individual abilities, not simply because you have left overs. Their pre-Genin years were the boot camp in which the instructors should have determined the individuals strengths and weaknesses, and then once they graduated the individuals should have been placed in teams based around those strengths and weaknesses. Kishimoto failed at coming up with a reason for Team 7's existence beyond the plot contrived drama their grouping would provide.

Realistically, Kishimoto might have had a basic idea for Team 7. As a General team (which is also a stupid idea to begin with), Naruto could have been Ninjutsu, Sasuke Taijutsu and Sakura Genjutsu. Sadly, even this basic idea (which was at least brought up as a possibility during the first training session with Kakashi) was never dealt with.

Truthfully, if Sakura wasn't placed on the team, I think they would have been more cohesive. Don't get me wrong, I like Sakura, and honestly none of the other known female genin would have worked, but someone like Shikimaru or Shino would have been a great addition to Team 7, able to balance out the personalities while helping to sustain overall levels of performance.

That being said, there is something to the basic logic as to why Kakashi got Sasuke. And Naruto is debatable (ideally Yamato should have always been training Naruto), but it is at least somewhat understandable. Sadly, he had no reason to even try to teach Sakura (and he never did).

Team 7 was a plot contrived overly dramatic team literally created to fail. Their break-up was obvious from the start and was even readily apparent by the characters very placement in the Team.

edit: To put it in perspective, every single "Team 7" (the best with the worst) that we know of has ended in abject failure for one reason or another (there are dizzying highs, but the lows are abysmal). If this always happens, doesn't that mean maybe you should change something?

Originally Posted by Endscape

That's not quite fair. In Lee and Negi's case, and Jiraiya and Orochimaru's as well, it seems to have had a positive effect. If this tradition helped create at least 1 person even a third as good as Jiraiya, it's well worth it.

The same "positive" effect was also found with Kakashi-Obito and Naruto-Sasuke. I am not disputing the relationships forged due to their forced involvement, I am merely pointing out the ludicrous plot contrived nature of their involvement.

Originally Posted by Endscape

You're missing the point. As I said earlier, it's quite frankly impossible to expect every single group of graduates to be able to be broken up into cells with complimentary abilities like Team 8 and 10. Most groups won't be ready-made like that.

Not really. Everyone has their own personal strengths and weaknesses, and their teams were created accordingly. Kishimoto, for whatever reason, simply decided not to make any complimentary abilities/personalities for Team 7. They just were.

Originally Posted by Endscape

Part of being a genin is to learn. You put people who might not work well immediately on paper and see if they can learn teamwork.

Again, that is stupid. If you are potentially going in to live or death situations, then you need some sort of cohesion in a team. Without that cohesion, you're just random individuals working toward a common goal.

That being said, part of the development of a genin is to learn and study with their team. Sadly, Kakashi had little experience, or simply couldn't properly teach how to work as an efficient team.

Originally Posted by Endscape

To be fair, circumstances got in the way, the whole team was together, for what, 3 months or so?

Fair enough. Still, there's a lot you can learn in that amount of time, but sadly he wasted that time with the month just for Sasuke, the mission to Wave, and seemingly lazing around during the early days.

Originally Posted by Endscape

We only saw the 12 of the graduates, and if the other 9 went into teams, what should they have done with the rest of them?

Again, this was Kishimoto's fault for not properly explaining team placements and possibly not actually understanding what a teams purpose is...

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

No, Minato et al sealed the Kyuubi in Naruto in hopes that he could one day be useful. They didn't know, and later on none of the aforementioned had any reason to assume (beyond hope) that he could live up to their expectations. Naruto, like any other 10-12 year old, was filled with potential, but any way of gauging his potential previous to his stunt with Kage Bushin would have shown Naruto to be a complete failure.

what about his genetics? genetics have proven to be an essential factor in ninja's potential. naruto was the son of the fourth hokage and of a powerful uzumaki (close relation to the senju). how is that not more potential than any other 10-12 year old?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

what about his genetics? genetics have proven to be an essential factor in ninja's potential. naruto was the son of the fourth hokage and of a powerful uzumaki (close relation to the senju). how is that not more potential than any other 10-12 year old?

Genetics? Well, lets talk to Ms. Hinata, the heir of the current most powerful clan in Konoha, and ridiculously weaker than her other known relatives not to mention most other ninjas. Genetics are not everything. Just look at Itama or all the dead Uchiha, or all the dead Senju, Uzumaki, the countless bloodline users killed in Mist, etc. Just because you are predisposed to potential greatness doesn't mean you will ever live up to that potential (Obito falls in to this chategory somewhat; he became great but only through outside factors). Everything pre-Kage Bushin showed Naruto having a simple and average existence. That's not to say the potential wasn't there, it just wasn't shown in any observable way (which is a long line of peoples faults, all the way from Naruto needlessly acting like an idiot to get attention, to the villagers needlessly condemning him, up to Sarutobi never teaching him correctly or even making an effort to make sure he was taught correctly).

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

Genetics? Well, lets talk to Ms. Hinata, the heir of the current most powerful clan in Konoha, and ridiculously weaker than her other known relatives not to mention most other ninjas. Genetics are not everything.

i never said genetics are everything. (although kishi has pretty much said this over the past few years) also, hinata has gotten considerably stronger over the years and seems to be one of the premier hyuugas now. the hyuugas aren't that powerful in the scheme of things. i'm not sure what you're expecting out of them. neji was their genius and he was recently reduced to a human shield.

Just look at Itama or all the dead Uchiha, or all the dead Senju, Uzumaki, the countless bloodline users killed in Mist, etc. Just because you are predisposed to potential greatness doesn't mean you will ever live up to that potential (Obito falls in to this chategory somewhat; he became great but only through outside factors).

i totally agree. no offense, but i dont think you understand the meaning of the word 'potential'. it specifically doesnt mean that a person will live up to it. it is merely what they could live up to.

potential: 1: possible, as opposed to actual. 2: capable of being or becoming

[james0246]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i totally agree. no offense, but i dont think you understand the meaning of the word 'potential'. it specifically doesnt mean that a person will live up to it. it is merely what they could live up to.

You've misunderstood my sentence and the argument (it's my fault, it was badly worded). Just because Naruto has seemingly genetic superiority and the Kyuubi doesn't mean anything if he was never shown to be worth anything. Pre-Kage Bushin Naruto had no known observable potential. Many may have hoped he had potential due to birth or status (these are quantifiable reasons to assume Naruto might be worth something - potential), but based on observable data there was no reason to assume that Naruto actually was capable of anything (he seemed to fail at everything, so why would anyone assume otherwise?). Genetics, etc are important factors, they're just not the be-all end-all (though I do agree with the implicit supposition that most elite are already connected to greatness through genetics).

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

You've misunderstood my sentence and the argument (it's my fault, it was badly worded). Just because Naruto has seemingly genetic superiority and the Kyuubi doesn't mean anything if he was never shown to be worth anything. Pre-Kage Bushin Naruto had no known observable potential. Many may have hoped he had potential due to birth or status (these are quantifiable reasons to assume Naruto might be worth something - potential), but based on observable data there was no reason to assume that Naruto actually was capable of anything (he seemed to fail at everything, so why would anyone assume otherwise?). Genetics, etc are important factors, they're just not the be-all end-all (though I do agree with the implicit supposition that most elite are already connected to greatness through genetics).

ok. yes, i agree with this. the thing is that we were discussing his placement onto team 7 though and the kage bunshin incident happened prior to that. so there was observable potential to be seen in naruto prior to him ever even meeting kakashi

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

No, Minato et al sealed the Kyuubi in Naruto in hopes that he could one day be useful. They didn't know, and later on none of the aforementioned had any reason to assume (beyond hope) that he could live up to their expectations. Naruto, like any other 10-12 year old, was filled with potential, but any way of gauging his potential previous to his stunt with Kage Bushin would have shown Naruto to be a complete failure.

Well if someone defines "hope" by saying it's when the hokage gives up his life to bet the future of his village and probably the whole world on it then i think "hope" is much much more than just relying on luck. But i understand your reasoning, it doesn't make less sense to look at it that way. Kishimoto often creates situations where someone who should be wrong just can't be wrong as it seems that the laws of this magical world define a very different logic than what the real world has. I mean almost all characters in the Narutoverse act irrationally, some less and some more, but then it often turns out that apparently their actions in the Narutoverse are considered to be rational and responsible For instance the 4th hokage easily beats the mysterious masked man (who turns out to be his ex-apprentice) but immedately after this short encounter he comes to the conclusion that he and Kushina have to die and leave their child alone in the forest (from where Tobi just teleported away and could teleport back at any time and kidnap the child along with the kyuubi, or he could return at any later time to kidnap Naruto from a village that has no strong kage any more) just because he somehow realized in that brief time that his son must be the savior who's the only one that will be able to beat the masked man. And the list of such decisions just goes on...

Originally Posted by james0246

Well, lets talk to Ms. Hinata, the heir of the current most powerful clan in Konoha, and ridiculously weaker than her other known relatives not to mention most other ninjas.

I can't agree with that, she became a very good ninja by now. Her main problem was that she was shy and didn't have self conficence, but that doesn't mean she was some talentless girl. It just means that her father was an idiot who couldn't see any value in Hinata and gave up on her. Sure she doesn't have as much talent as Neji or her younger sister, but she's good and has some pretty impressive special moves of her clan. If she was not a Hyuuga then she would be much weaker, she would need a lot more talent (like Minato and others who didn't have a special clan or genetics) to stand against those who have special clan secret jutsu (Shikamaru and his team) or even special genetic abilities (Hyuuga, Uchiha, Kaguya, ....). But since Hinata has a genetic ability and also special clan jutsu we can assume that even with her moderate ninja talent she's stronger than most of the ninja that ever existed (for example the 60-70 thousand alliance ninja who are already dead).

[james0246]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

ok. yes, i agree with this. the thing is that we were discussing his placement onto team 7 though and the kage bunshin incident happened prior to that. so there was observable potential to be seen in naruto prior to him ever even meeting kakashi

As long as Naruto was still the lowest grade in the class, he would have always been placed on Team 7 with the highest grade in the class (Sasuke). That's just how Team 7 works.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Kishimoto often creates situations where someone who should be wrong just can't be wrong as it seems that the laws of this magical world define a very different logic than what the real world has. I mean almost all characters in the Narutoverse act irrationally, some less and some more, but then it often turns out that apparently their actions in the Narutoverse are considered to be rational and responsible

LOL, There is a fair bit of truth in what you've written ...

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

As long as Naruto was still the lowest grade in the class, he would have always been placed on Team 7 with the highest grade in the class (Sasuke). That's just how Team 7 works.

but that's looking at things the way they were in the first few chapters which accounts for roughly 5-10% of the total story and was about a decade ago and retconned into oblivion. back then, konoha didnt mind sending their jinchuuriki on a mission where ninja at haku and zabuza's levels were serious threats. if a kage-level ninja or akatsuki member was there, konoha would have lost the 9 tails easily.

i look at things based on the overall story, or if you want to look at it as the latest 90% or so of the story then that's fine. in the overall story, students are not given teachers based on lowest and highest grades. it is no coincidence that kakashi, minato's best pupil, was given minato's son as a student. nor is it a coincidence that he was given sasuke who he could help with the sharingan regardless of whether sasuke was top of the class or not. that old way of thinking makes no sense given the story the way it is portrayed now.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

but that's looking at things the way they were in the first few chapters which accounts for roughly 5-10% of the total story and was about a decade ago and retconned into oblivion. back then, konoha didnt mind sending their jinchuuriki on a mission where ninja at haku and zabuza's levels were serious threats. if a kage-level ninja or akatsuki member was there, konoha would have lost the 9 tails easily.

i look at things based on the overall story, or if you want to look at it as the latest 90% or so of the story then that's fine. in the overall story, students are not given teachers based on lowest and highest grades. it is no coincidence that kakashi, minato's best pupil, was given minato's son as a student. nor is it a coincidence that he was given sasuke who he could help with the sharingan regardless of whether sasuke was top of the class or not. that old way of thinking makes no sense given the story the way it is portrayed now.

I'm not sure what your argument is, but if we're looking at this from a story perspective, Yamato, Sarutobi, Jiraiya, Shikimaru's father (just due to his overall intelligence plus his general placement within the military structure), and a few others were all better candidates for Naruto's patronage and tutelage. Kakahsi knew nothing about Jinchuuriki, he knew nothing about how to train Jinchuuriki, and it seems he never even attempted to try (the greatest instruction Kakashi ever gave Naruto occurred 2 years after the team collapsed). As I've already mentioned, Kakashi's only real 'fit' was with Sasuke (training him how to use the Sharingan), otherwise he was not the best choice for the Team and his failure as a teacher only adds to my conclusion that the team was doomed to fail from the onset (just like most of the known Team 7s from the past).

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

I'm not sure what your argument is, but if we're looking at this from a story perspective, Yamato, Sarutobi, Jiraiya, Shikimaru's father (just due to his overall intelligence plus his general placement within the military structure), and a few others were all better candidates for Naruto's patronage and tutelage.

well my argument was glossed over in your previous post that was apparently responding to it, so i started talking about what you seemed to want to direct the conversation into my previous argument was that naruto showed potential prior to his induction into team 7 which i think is proven at this point. i hope at least. what i'm saying now is exactly what you are saying just using other examples. that if you want to discuss naruto based on the first few chapters, then not much will make any sense, particularly naruto being a jinchuuriki, like i said to Dengar earlier:

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

it depends on how you want to look at the series. i try to look at it on a whole. you apparently are looking at it based on the first few chapters. if you do that (which you're welcome to do of course) then not much concerning naruto will make any sense, particularly him being a jinchuuriki.

if the beginning of naruto were to make sense with what we know now, then yamato should have been by his side at all times and hiruzen should have kept naruto better protected in the village and away from missions that could have resulted in him being potentially attacked and stolen. hence why i've been saying that using the beginning of the series as proof of anything is pretty much useless

[Owlman]

Originally Posted by james0246

Just because Naruto has seemingly genetic superiority and the Kyuubi doesn't mean anything if he was never shown to be worth anything. Pre-Kage Bushin Naruto had no known observable potential. Many may have hoped he had potential due to birth or status (these are quantifiable reasons to assume Naruto might be worth something - potential), but based on observable data there was no reason to assume that Naruto actually was capable of anything (he seemed to fail at everything, so why would anyone assume otherwise?). Genetics, etc are important factors, they're just not the be-all end-all (though I do agree with the implicit supposition that most elite are already connected to greatness through genetics).

It seems a bit strange that you're bringing up examples in this thread where genetics don't necessarily guarantee anything (like Hinata), yet a couple chapters ago you seemed pretty adamant stating that Naruto possessing his genetics and a “nuclear bomb” in his stomach meant a win(or at least him being on par with anyone he's faced I take it) --so much so that you didn't consider Naruto ever to be outclassed or even an underdog at all for the entire series.

[Hunter]

Hinata is a good example of genetic inferiority anyway : she's female and in this manga that's a virtually insurmountable obstacle.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Hinata is a good example of genetic inferiority anyway : she's female and in this manga that's a virtually insurmountable obstacle.

lol, can't argue with that

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Owlman

It seems a bit strange that you're bringing up examples in this thread where genetics don't necessarily guarantee anything (like Hinata), yet a couple chapters ago you seemed pretty adamant stating that Naruto possessing his genetics and a “nuclear bomb” in his stomach meant a win(or at least him being on par with anyone he's faced I take it) --so much so that you didn't consider Naruto ever to be outclassed or even an underdog at all for the entire series.

As I said, just because Naruto had these amazing gifts doesn't mean anything to the team placements, especially since he was never shown to actually posses any of these gifts growing up. The conclusion for Naruto is obvious after the first chapter (why I dispute the notion that he was once an underdog), but his actions before that chapter never indicated anything but failure to anyone watching him, especially if they had no knowledge of his heritage. I never disputed Naruto's genetic superiority (in fact I said that most of the elite are undoubtedly connected to greatness through genetics), rather I emphasized that his superiority was not truly observable until he performed Kage Bushin.

To simplify, Naruto had hidden potential that no one could assume existed simply because he was never observed to do anything amazing. Then he did something amazing.

(btw, I don't think I ever said outclassed.)

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

But since Hinata has a genetic ability and also special clan jutsu we can assume that even with her moderate ninja talent she's stronger than most of the ninja that ever existed (for example the 60-70 thousand alliance ninja who are already dead).

Originally Posted by Hunter

Hinata is a good example of genetic inferiority anyway : she's female and in this manga that's a virtually insurmountable obstacle.

And this is why I don't take Hinata anymore seriously than Tenten.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

And this is why I don't take Hinata anymore seriously than Tenten.

Because she's not a genius like Neji? Sure you have high standards

Originally Posted by james0246

and his failure as a teacher

You are too harsh with Kakashi here What's the measure of failure? Naruto and Sasuke will become the strongest ninja of their time and maybe even strongest ever by the end of the manga, so i guess that's not the measure If we look at other teachers they often failed much more than Kakashi. Minato's failed to protect his team, Obito became a crazy evil boss who caused the death of a huge amount of people including his own teacher, the medical ninja of the team died by the hands of her own team, the only survivor didn't care too much about becoming a top ninja any more and instead was escaping into the world of Jiaray's books and also didn't accept to teach genin teams for a long time. In the Kakashi gaiden his team was dysfunctional, they couldn't agree on anything, also Kakashi was not listening to Minato and went to lose his eye which then caused Obito's death and everything else
The 3rd hokage's team also fell apart and one became an enemy, the other was gambling and drinking around the world, the 3rd didn't accept the hokage position despite having mastered sage mode. The 2nd hokage's team went on to become the evil elders of the village who among other things caused the massacre of the Uchiha clan, the madness of Nagato/Pain and the creation of people like Kabuto or Sai. Orochimaru was hated by all his subordinates, except some who were made into mindless servants (sound 5, etc.) that are like suicide bombers. Jiraiya left his team without teaching them how the world works so they were tricked by evil ninja leaders. All of them are dead except Naruto, but he could also be dead by now because Jiraiya never dealt with Danzou, nor did he tell to Naruto and his other apprentices that Danzou is dangerous. Jiraiya was training Naruto for 3 years but it was almost useless since he had no chance against Sasuke or Itachi when he returned from his training with Jiraiya. In contrast with that Kakashi did teach Naruto to use his wind element in just a few days, the frogs did teach him sage mode in a few weeks and Bee did teach him in a few days what Jiraiya couldn't in 3 years.
The only decent teacher in the manga is Naruto considering that Konohamaru is already quite strong and has adopted Naruto's version of the will of fire

[itachi-san314]

^kakashi also taught sasuke how to use chidori very quickly. i think he was a great teacher. it seems to be a recurring theme that a couple ninja from every generation will defect and become twisted in some way. it's more a reflection of the ninja system, then it is any particular teacher

Originally Posted by The Small One

IIRC Kakashi was never meant to be their teacher.
Do you remember the test with the bells? Wasn't it said, that nobody ever passed it? So the one who appointed Kakashi as teacher actually expected team 7 to fail and therefore get another teacher afterwards.

i think that was all part of the bell test. the students were meant to fail. it was a test of teamwork. just the fact that they did fail and still passed, proves that kakashi was meant to be their teacher after all