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Old 2009-10-12, 00:46   Link #1821
whitepearl
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More actual love in a marriage could *probably* result in fewer divorces.

The divorce rate in America is pretty ridiculous.

Flora, there are some others (I can't name any specific names as these people are just fellow posters on another messageboard) who also believe that humans are naturally inclined towards polygamy because they want to insure their bloodline and genes can progress through generations.
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Old 2009-10-12, 00:49   Link #1822
Quzor
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Originally Posted by FragrantFlora View Post
I for one strongly disagree with his view point. I certainly wouldn't want my future husband going around impregnating other women And I think the risk of getting STDs would be nice too
He doesn't actually suggest it as a way to live; it's simply a genetic examination. Genes are inherently "selfish"; they wish to survive for as long as they're able. By exacting an open sharing mentality from their "survival machines" (his words for humans), they increase their chances of survivability.

I don't know if he actually supports polygamy or not (I suspect he doesn't, since he's married to only 1 woman) but, again, this isn't his point of view on how people should live their lives. It's merely an examination of the behavior of genes as they try to survive through the generations.
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Last edited by Quzor; 2009-10-12 at 01:00.
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Old 2009-10-12, 00:53   Link #1823
FateAnomaly
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That is my problem. I take this commitment thing too seriously. While i like a person, i could never convince myself i will like the person forever nor vice versa. Therefore, i never commit myself. I know i am probably thinking too much about this things. I know tons of people break up and move on to another relationship but i just can't help thinking like that.
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Old 2009-10-12, 00:54   Link #1824
Throne Invader
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitepearl View Post
More actual love in a marriage could *probably* result in fewer divorces.

The divorce rate in America is pretty ridiculous.

Flora, there are some others (I can't name any specific names as these people are just fellow posters on another messageboard) who also believe that humans are naturally inclined towards polygamy because they want to insure their bloodline and genes can progress through generations.
Haha how cute. Dietrich is a Yankee fan

Well I don't think people would be that obsessed in spreading their seed and reproducing lots of children. There are even some people who don't even want children.
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Old 2009-10-12, 00:59   Link #1825
Throne Invader
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Originally Posted by FateAnomaly View Post
That is my problem. I take this commitment thing too seriously. While i like a person, i could never convince myself i will like the person forever nor vice versa. Therefore, i never commit myself. I know i am probably thinking too much about this things. I know tons of people break up and move on to another relationship but i just can't help thinking like that.
I'm sorry you feel that way FateAnomaly. Commitment can be a wonderful thing. But it takes 2 people to make a commitment to each other to make it happen. It doesn't only work one way
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Old 2009-10-12, 01:02   Link #1826
Quzor
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Originally Posted by FateAnomaly View Post
That is my problem. I take this commitment thing too seriously. While i like a person, i could never convince myself i will like the person forever nor vice versa. Therefore, i never commit myself. I know i am probably thinking too much about this things. I know tons of people break up and move on to another relationship but i just can't help thinking like that.
Entering a relationship under the notion that it will eventually end is a recipe for failure. You never give yourself an opportunity to open up to the other person, because you know that it will be a fruitless endeavor.

As weird as this sounds, and as hard as it may be, make an attempt to go into your forthcoming relationships with no expectations about them whatsoever. Maybe they'll end, and maybe they won't, but you have no way of knowing that from the very beginning. If you eliminate the idea that your relationship will fail from your mind, you may be more inclined to open up to your partner, and thereby be surprised at what you receive in turn.
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Old 2009-10-12, 01:10   Link #1827
Throne Invader
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Originally Posted by Quzor View Post
He doesn't actually suggest it as a way to live; it's simply a genetic examination. Genes are inherently "selfish"; they wish to survive for as long as they're able. By exacting an open sharing mentality from their "survival machines" (his words for humans), they increase their chances of survivability.

I don't know if he actually supports polygamy or not (I suspect he doesn't, since he's married to only 1 woman) but, again, this isn't his point of view on how people should live their lives. It's merely an examination of the behavior of genes as they try to survive through the generations.
Yep, we're only talking about his viewpoint You said he "suggested" it though.

I kinda think it's a bit silly how he personified genes
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Old 2009-10-12, 01:12   Link #1828
Kafriel
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Well I don't think people would be that obsessed in spreading their seed and reproducing lots of children. There are even some people who don't even want children.
Seconded, I have a few friends who feel better not having children, and I myself can only love one person (at least so far, but I don't think it will change in the future )
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Old 2009-10-12, 01:28   Link #1829
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Originally Posted by Quzor View Post
Interestingly enough, I'm reading a book about this very subject; The Selfish Gene, by Richard Dawkins. Whether you like him or not (most people have a pretty definitive viewpoint about him), the book is quite interesting.

The book focuses largely, in certain chapters, on the "resource cost" of reproduction for both sexes. Interesting enough, Dawkins suggests that it would be beneficial for men and women to mate with as many people as possible, so as to give better chance of their genes progressing into the next generation. However, he suggests that this may be easier for men to do, than for women.
I've never read the book, so to be perfectly honest I can't refute any statements directly in good faith because I don't know the whole story. However, I've heard The Selfish Gene referenced a few times before, and it always makes me feel that the book takes a very simplistic view of genetics and then tries to put a spin on it to explain some aspect of life/society. Whether it's the book itself or just what people are coming away with I can't say for certain. I'd love to refute the ideas from the book that you mentioned here but in light of the fact that it isn't in the full context I guess I can't, really. Either way, whenever you read another passage from that book, know that I'm probably in disagreement

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Originally Posted by FateAnomaly View Post
That is my problem. I take this commitment thing too seriously. While i like a person, i could never convince myself i will like the person forever nor vice versa. Therefore, i never commit myself. I know i am probably thinking too much about this things. I know tons of people break up and move on to another relationship but i just can't help thinking like that.
I'm the same way, sort of. I never dated with the idea that it'd be temporary - it was an evaluation and an attempt to make something that would last. Obviously you try to stack the odds in your favor by going for girls that you find attractive and suspect would be compatible with you, but the only way to find out for sure is to take the dive.

Will you be attracted to them forever? Male wisdom that's been passed around dictates that you won't. You can date the absolute hottest girl, but within a few months you'll be used to it and other girls will seem more attractive to you. Anyone who says otherwise is probably lying, because this stems from a general trait of human nature (I suppose); that we take for granted what we have once it becomes normalcy. It's the "grass is greener" mentality - at best you can be content with what you have, but you'll always wonder whether things might be better on the other side.

I think that this is partly where the notion that "relationships require work" comes into play. It seems to me that many people expect that love just pops up and that once it appears it makes everything easy. Love does make things easy, but it's sort of like growing a plant - even the hardiest of plants require that you ensure that they get enough sun and give them water here and there. What I mean is, aside from making sure that you're still attractive to your mate and are meeting her needs and desires, you need to keep focused on her, too.

As a personal example, I live with my fiancee. In truth, we began cohabiting very early on in the relationship. We spent and still spend copious amounts of time together. Those days of not knowing each other's presence disappeared very quickly. It would have been very easy for me to take her for granted and start looking around at other girls. However, I actively cultivate my love, admiration, and respect for her. It's partially a state of mind - I remind myself each day how lucky I am to be with such a wonderful, beautiful person (and I verbalize it to her many times a day, which of course she appreciates). Physically, I appreciate all aspects of her and find beauty in all traits. Sure, it helps that she's naturally beautiful, but don't fool yourself into thinking that you could stare at the same beautiful girl day in and day out and not get bored. I didn't find her particularly physically attractive the very first time that we met, yet with time she only becomes more beautiful. There are many reasons for that (she was a big nerd who didn't care much for her appearance before she met me ) but I'm fairly certain that my mindset contributes.

Of course, to write it all out makes it sound like a chore of some sort. It isn't at all. Those sorts of things come naturally and easily to me. Do I occasionally take her for granted? I'm sure I do. But ultimately I'm in this relationship to make it last (that's a bit obvious now given that we're engaged). You won't last long if you don't actively respect and care for each other, at the very least. The fact that I receive loads of love and affection back each day definitely makes it very easy for me to keep reminding myself of how lucky I am and all, too.

The point I'm trying to make for you, specifically, is to worry a bit less about what's far off in the future. Know yourself, know your nature, and then figure out how to deal with it. It's fine to enter a relationship expecting that this might be the big marathon, but keep evaluating it and keep evaluating yourself. Don't get married after a month, of course, but work with yourself and with your mate. Yes, work at it. If it begins to feel like a burden then you're either putting in too much effort, you're not putting in the effort properly, or it could be that your partner isn't giving back on the same level. If that's the case, talk about it - communication is also critical to a relationship.
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Old 2009-10-12, 01:29   Link #1830
FateAnomaly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quzor View Post
Entering a relationship under the notion that it will eventually end is a recipe for failure. You never give yourself an opportunity to open up to the other person, because you know that it will be a fruitless endeavor.

As weird as this sounds, and as hard as it may be, make an attempt to go into your forthcoming relationships with no expectations about them whatsoever. Maybe they'll end, and maybe they won't, but you have no way of knowing that from the very beginning. If you eliminate the idea that your relationship will fail from your mind, you may be more inclined to open up to your partner, and thereby be surprised at what you receive in turn.
I fully understand what you are trying to say. I have already told myself about it many times. But at the end of the day, the practical side always won despite the emotional side being lonely or the physiological side being needy.
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Old 2009-10-12, 03:50   Link #1831
Quzor
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I've never read the book, so to be perfectly honest I can't refute any statements directly in good faith because I don't know the whole story. However, I've heard The Selfish Gene referenced a few times before, and it always makes me feel that the book takes a very simplistic view of genetics and then tries to put a spin on it to explain some aspect of life/society. Whether it's the book itself or just what people are coming away with I can't say for certain. I'd love to refute the ideas from the book that you mentioned here but in light of the fact that it isn't in the full context I guess I can't, really. Either way, whenever you read another passage from that book, know that I'm probably in disagreement
To be perfectly honest, the language of the book is, quite often, well beyond me. I can understand what he's talking about on a basic level, but I don't have the background in the necessary fields to really get a complete understanding of everything he says. All that being said, I'd hazard a guess that a lot of what is said about the book, and about Dawkins' work in general, is people's insights after the fact (much like mine is in this case). Simple or complex, complete or incomplete, his stance on genetics and genetic behavior is quite interesting, if nothing else.
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I fully understand what you are trying to say. I have already told myself about it many times. But at the end of the day, the practical side always won despite the emotional side being lonely or the physiological side being needy.
The brain; sometimes, it's just in the way. =P
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Old 2009-10-12, 03:59   Link #1832
Let'sFightingLove
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o, o, ooooooooooooo oooo. dodododo i just can't help falling in love with you
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Old 2009-10-12, 09:27   Link #1833
whitepearl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FragrantFlora View Post
Haha how cute. Dietrich is a Yankee fan

Well I don't think people would be that obsessed in spreading their seed and reproducing lots of children. There are even some people who don't even want children. [emphasis added]
That's true, as well.

Some of those who have a girlfriend and maybe one or two girls on the side might actually think that having more than one partner is okay and would try to justify it:

The girl shouldn't be mad I'm dating other girls — I'm just trying to ensure my bloodline can outlast those of other males!

The girl would probably slap the male in the face 0.9001 seconds before throwing all his stuff out the door...

There was a discussion on this topic on another board I post on where we were asked if humans were naturally inclined towards monogamy or polygamy. Most felt humans were polygamous by default.

P.S.
Dietrich knows who to root for. If I had any art skills, I'd draw her and other assorted Claymores in Yankee jerseys, but that's another topic for another day.
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Old 2009-10-12, 10:16   Link #1834
stubby42
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Are you a perfectionist, as well? Here's my advice: stop caring so much. Don't go into total abandonment of the things that matter you, but stop caring about whether things go perfectly and whether they go as you plan (because they most often will not). You can still care and still plan, but stop worrying so much about either. Dilute your standards slightly if you have to. It's a necessary sacrifice to end what is essentially paralysis of your life.
Ledgem you are a bastian of good advice and I really want to say that I appricate the fact that you go back through the topic to look at other peoples questions that might of got looked over (p.s thanks for everyone who replied) so thanks for that.

I've never really thought of myself as a perfectionist but I guess thats a pretty fair statment, I've always had a plan, you know strong dreams and ambitions that I've wanted to achieve which I've had to have even more so with the moving to canada thing.

but now all those plans are falling apart and now I'm just confused and Im finding it hard to just relax because my instinct is to come up with a new plan and work to that (it doesnt help that my parents are pushing me to make decisions about my life).

-----------------------------
Important bit
-----------------------------

This weekend I met the girl of my dreams, she loves history (shes doing a degree in arechology), star trek, pixar films (we disagree on which ones are the best but nobodies perfect), she doesnt like night clubs (I hate them, they make me ill) she even poured my pint for me because I did such a terrible job of it on my own (it was 90% head).


-----------------------------
background bit
-----------------------------

Little bit of background first, after work on saturday I decided to get a train to Durham (I live near chester, its about 4 hours away) to visit my best friend. It just so happened it was this girls birthday so they were going on a pub crawl that I ended up tagging along with (I've met alot of these people before, apparantly I first met the girl three years ago the first time I visited my friend) then thanks to our joint love of pixar films we got a group together and went to see UP!

-----------------------------
I screwed up
-----------------------------


We spent alot of the weekend talking and we really got along well... but I screwed up.

I'm pretty lousy at reading emotions and I'm fairly bad at showing mine to other people because I'm pretty sure she liked me too but I didnt really pick up on it at the time and I didnt make enough of an effort.

Other than the fact that she spent most of the weekend talking to me she hid my hoody but I didnt know how to react to that.

Other ways I screwed up.

Didnt sit with her in the cinema - not completely my fault it was assigned seating, two friends who were supposed to show didnt so she was getting her tickets refunded and we'd all gone in already but I could of made more of an effort.

I asked her if there was one thing you could do in your life what would it be, she said get back down to a size 10 - instead of complimenting her (because she looks amazing) I shrugged it off and move the conversation to something else.

Didnt buy her a birthday drink - again not completely my fault the first pub we were in was closing, we went to another place in town but somebody else beat me to buying a drink and we left before we could do another round and the final place was closing and making deliberatly bad drinks.

Again I could of made more of an effort.

-----------------------------
Should I call her?
-----------------------------


but I really like her, I dont want to sit around and do nothing like I always do so should I get my friend to give me her phone number, call her and just admit I'm bad at this stuff but I like her.

Is that romantic or needy?

Heres the other problem she lives 4 hours away and it costs £60 on the train just to get there (to be fair that was a last minute fair I might get cheaper if I book in advance), I cant afford to make that trip every weekend at the moment (and my work load wont let me until after christmas).

Even if I was going every week I could only be a weekend boyfriend and when she finishes university, well she'll be moving back to scotland (which is even further away).

Should I just call her and see what happens?


-----------------------------
phew
-----------------------------

That was a really long post, sorry.
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Old 2009-10-12, 10:57   Link #1835
Ascaloth
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Originally Posted by stubby42 View Post
-----------------------------
I screwed up
-----------------------------


We spent alot of the weekend talking and we really got along well... but I screwed up.

I'm pretty lousy at reading emotions and I'm fairly bad at showing mine to other people because I'm pretty sure she liked me too but I didnt really pick up on it at the time and I didnt make enough of an effort.

Other than the fact that she spent most of the weekend talking to me she hid my hoody but I didnt know how to react to that.

Other ways I screwed up.

Didnt sit with her in the cinema - not completely my fault it was assigned seating, two friends who were supposed to show didnt so she was getting her tickets refunded and we'd all gone in already but I could of made more of an effort.

I asked her if there was one thing you could do in your life what would it be, she said get back down to a size 10 - instead of complimenting her (because she looks amazing) I shrugged it off and move the conversation to something else.

Didnt buy her a birthday drink - again not completely my fault the first pub we were in was closing, we went to another place in town but somebody else beat me to buying a drink and we left before we could do another round and the final place was closing and making deliberatly bad drinks.

Again I could of made more of an effort.
....it honestly doesn't sound anywhere near as bad as you're making it out to be from my POV.

So yeah, you screwed up several times on the small stuff. Well, you know what they say about the small stuff; don't sweat it. Just make a mental note of these events for next time, and just starting paying attention so you'll know when an opportunity to do something to get close to her surfaces again. But really, above all, don't be too chickenshit to make an effort when the time comes. Like in my case, where would I be now if I had never stole that kiss and dropped the "no regrets" line? (although Narona wasn't that impressed by it lol )

Quote:
but I really like her, I dont want to sit around and do nothing like I always do so should I get my friend to give me her phone number, call her and just admit I'm bad at this stuff but I like her.

Is that romantic or needy?
Girl: "Gee, the boy is too pussy to ask me directly for my number. He ain't a keeper."



I think you know what to do from here. Barring some pragmatic reason that you can't, the best way to get a girl's number is to approach her directly for it. Also, I think Ledgem mentioned it earlier somewhere in this thread, but I think he said that girls don't care much for phone or online confessions. You should do it face-to-face.

Quote:
Heres the other problem she lives 4 hours away and it costs £60 on the train just to get there (to be fair that was a last minute fair I might get cheaper if I book in advance), I cant afford to make that trip every weekend at the moment (and my work load wont let me until after christmas).

Even if I was going every week I could only be a weekend boyfriend and when she finishes university, well she'll be moving back to scotland (which is even further away).

Should I just call her and see what happens?
I'm going to guess this is the pragmatic reason you can't ask for her number directly? If that's the case, maybe asking your friend for her number would be an acceptable alternative....but I'll still find whatever way I can to contact her by my own means, in any case.

As for your question, I think what Ledgem said to me the other time also applies here too; it's not a bad trait to think deeply about things, but there's no harm living life for the moment at our age. Go ahead and confess to her; you two can work out the details later if it's a green light.
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Old 2009-10-12, 14:52   Link #1836
Splitpersonality
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I'm leaving shortly to put the final nail in the coffin that once was our relationship, I've for the most part decided what is going to happen, and I will talk about it when I return.

I hope I have the balls to go through with it :P
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Old 2009-10-12, 15:25   Link #1837
K_Babyy
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Originally Posted by Splitpersonality View Post
I'm leaving shortly to put the final nail in the coffin that once was our relationship, I've for the most part decided what is going to happen, and I will talk about it when I return.

I hope I have the balls to go through with it :P
Sorry to hear that, hope everything goes well and neither of you are too hurt by the situation.
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Old 2009-10-12, 15:30   Link #1838
Ricky Controversy
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Originally Posted by Splitpersonality View Post
I'm leaving shortly to put the final nail in the coffin that once was our relationship, I've for the most part decided what is going to happen, and I will talk about it when I return.

I hope I have the balls to go through with it :P
That's a pretty grim way of thinking about it. It may well be that the internet's natural sarcasm filter is throwing me off, but in the event that you're seriously thinking in those terms, a crucial piece of advice I can give is to stop that. One of the core problems in human relationships in general is that people tend to attach some heightened value to the beginning and ending parts, as if they are birth and death, respectively. It will help you going forward if you think about it less in terms of starting or ending a relationship and more as just another step in your progression through life.
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Old 2009-10-12, 15:44   Link #1839
Narona
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Will you be attracted to them forever? Male wisdom that's been passed around dictates that you won't. You can date the absolute hottest girl, but within a few months you'll be used to it and other girls will seem more attractive to you. Anyone who says otherwise is probably lying, because this stems from a general trait of human nature (I suppose).
Good that you added the "probably", because I doubt you can read people mind to see if there is not even one who says the truth

Anyway, attraction is not only related to physical appearance I believe. That's why even when people age, there are some couples who stay deeply in love and attracted till the end.

Quote:
I think that this is partly where the notion that "relationships require work" comes into play. It seems to me that many people expect that love just pops up and that once it appears it makes everything easy. Love does make things easy, but it's sort of like growing a plant - even the hardiest of plants require that you ensure that they get enough sun and give them water here and there. What I mean is, aside from making sure that you're still attractive to your mate and are meeting her needs and desires, you need to keep focused on her, too.
I agree. Things don't stop once you've been accepted by the person you love.

Quote:
Of course, to write it all out makes it sound like a chore of some sort. It isn't at all. Those sorts of things come naturally and easily to me. Do I occasionally take her for granted? I'm sure I do. But ultimately I'm in this relationship to make it last (that's a bit obvious now given that we're engaged). You won't last long if you don't actively respect and care for each other, at the very least. The fact that I receive loads of love and affection back each day definitely makes it very easy for me to keep reminding myself of how lucky I am and all, too.
So cute

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Originally Posted by whitepearl
The girl would probably Cut his balls and throw them in the trash bin...
Fixed è_é
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Old 2009-10-12, 17:21   Link #1840
Splitpersonality
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
That's a pretty grim way of thinking about it. It may well be that the internet's natural sarcasm filter is throwing me off, but in the event that you're seriously thinking in those terms, a crucial piece of advice I can give is to stop that. One of the core problems in human relationships in general is that people tend to attach some heightened value to the beginning and ending parts, as if they are birth and death, respectively. It will help you going forward if you think about it less in terms of starting or ending a relationship and more as just another step in your progression through life.

I should start adding </sarcasm> tags on my stuff.

I have a very grim sense of humor, I did say that with a twinge of honesty though, I'm rather spineless at times, but that's who I am for better or worse.


In the end, we worked out that we're still great friends, and we are it's not just one of us saying that or anything, we have a lot in common and we have fun together.

What she's mostly spooked about is, we're both each other's first relationship and we're both sort of scared that what we feel is not real love or whatever. So we both decided it was fair to mutually part, and date other people so that we can figure out exactly what we feel.

Right now, I feel sort of... ambivalent to the whole thing. It feels like nothing has really changed, except that I'm free to date other people if I so choose, same goes for her.


If/when we both so choose, we will return on mutual ground, and agree to date again.

Until that point, we will be great friends, possibly with "benefits".


All of this, I"m totally fine with, yeah I still feel for her, but now I'm more confused about my feelings than I was, so I think that levels the playing field a bit. We both need a break to figure out what we feel and what we want to do, and we both need to grow up.

She knows entirely how I feel, and I assume she's been truthful with me, so I suppose things are good.




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