AnimeSuki Forums

Lord of Pandemonium · 2011-09-17, 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Well, he losing the need to fight can be considered to be giving up fighting (although it's because he thinks the outcome is predictable already).

Not at all--at least not in my opinion. Before Aizen avoided any confrontations that, he might lose. Instead he used intelligence and let others do his dirty work. I am an Aizen fan and although I think he was just d-cking around when he said Yama is stronger than he was--because he likes to make his opponents thing they're winning before he says "Psyche" --the fact remains he wasn't going to take any chances and had Yama's flames sealed to remove what could be a potential threat. For him not to do that--means he took went up another level in "bad ass". He didn't have to that because--they couldn't touch him. He didn't give up, he just no longer had a need to be cautious. Also he was testing his new form and abilities and deliberately let them attack him--because he was strong enough to own them without the Hougyoku and had already proved it. Either way it wasn't a risk because he was strong enough to beat them but before he fused with the hougyoku there was always a risk and he was aware of that. So he had to plan ahead to make sure he would be victorious....after the chrysalis age--he no longer had to do, even that

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Aizen looked like an Immovable Object for a moment there until Ichigo, the Unstoppable Force, came to give Aizen a taste of reality.

Actually Aizen was the "Unstoppable Force"...A lot of people felt Ichigo didn't need to use FGT. When in reality he did. Yes he did own that Kidou and Yes he did bitch smack Aizen--however that just made the Hougyoku give Aizen another upgrade. It is because Ichigo was so bad ass, and that's the first time he didn't make any of those "wide-eyed" surprise faces. You know those shocked "OH-SH-T or What THE HELL IS THAT!?" faces that he makes when someone flexes on him. Because it was the first time he appeared unfazed and he was uber bad ass. It made fans think that he was totally dominating Aizen. Which is really untrue. He just looked really cool while, he wasn't hurting Aizen at all. Honestly it wouldn't have mattered much if he'd manage to hurt Aizen before using FGT. Since the Hougyoku would heal and give him an upgrade, and it would have kept doing so. So Ichigo had to use FGT the only thing strong enough to weaken Aizen enough for Urahara's kido spell, to work ... A move that nearly split Aizen in half, a move that cost him his powers. Had the hougyoku not rejected Aizen he would have won. Because Ichigo would have been totally powerless and Aizen would have been whole. Aizen's biggest mistake wasn't underestimating Ichigo. He was mad that he became a transcendental before he did but his biggest mistake was thinking that he subjugated the hougyoku --when in reality he did not...it mastered him.

@Sayde

I read enough to know that you're not going to care-. but I feel I should say one thing

Quote:

. 'you just have to "THINK" about it"

Kubo himself has said he would like you to "THINK" when reading Bleach
Because it's an action manga but it's deeper than that. So he wants you to THINK about it a bit deeper . I do not believe he would deliberately call his readers stupid.
I have said more than once--I like Bleach because I (yes ME) actually have to think about it,unlike other manga that is dumb-down-and requires NO THINKING at all That is why I prefer it over any other manga barring YAOI. (Yaoi is special to me) Because I (yes ME) don't always get everything Kubo does right away. Because Bleach is the type of manga that YOU ( meaningI/me/YOU/the reader) actually have to THINK about it and then it makes sense in context.

Now I might call another person stupid, because I won't lie and say I would never do that because I have and I probably will again-- but no way in hell will I call myself stupid.
"you" is a generalization
If you (Now I mean YOU) felt insulted, and got the impression that I was talking down to you- then the problem is your self-esteem. So please place the blame where it lies.
If I thought you were incapable of using your brain--I wouldn't bother talking to you at all..PERIOD.

Quote:

"and insinuations"

My ego is self-inflated I have no need to feed it by talking down to users. I am just brutally honest and you can't see me so it's easy to misconstrue the "tone" of my posts , but let me tell you one thing--

I do not insinuate.. EVER.-. I just come out and say it or say nothing at all. That's actually my biggest problem I lack subtlety--I just come out and say it.

As for--

Quote:

"for coarse language "

Insulting my grammar or "coarse language" is a petty insult and truthfully it doesn't bother or shame me if someone else says that.. Pay me by the hour and I will use perfect grammar. There is no such thing as "perfect English" it's a coarse, mutt language that is made up of other languages . . As long as you get my drift I'm good with that. (It's not like I get paid for this )

If you don't want anyone or even if it's just me to reply to your post, than why post it? Once you post it in public place, you open yourself up for someone to say something. Sure we all have a right to our opinions I get that, but if you don't want anyone to comment on it then why opine? It's a "discussion forum" hell if you want to voice your opinions and you don't want anyone or even if it's just me to ever comment..then BLOG

kitten320 · 2011-09-17, 08:44

I must be stupid but Bleach never made me to think about anything... because majority of things that happen there don't have any connction or are made up on spot...

The only thing that Bleach makes me think about is: How the hell one stab on bad guy is deadlier than thousands on good guy as well as being sliced in half, litteraly!

P.S. Have to compliment you for not neg repping people, I hate those kinds who neg rep you and think they are smart instead of saying what they think openly.

Haak · 2011-09-17, 08:46

Yeah I don't see any hidden depths in Bleach either besides fanwanking...

And I'd like to know where LoP is getting this "Kubo says you have to think". I can't find any interviews where Kubo's said that...

Marcus H. · 2011-09-17, 09:17

The only thing poetic in Bleach are the poems Kubo write at the start of each volume.

sayde · 2011-09-17, 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

Now I might call another person stupid, because I won't lie and say I would never do that because I have and I probably will again-- but no way in hell will I call myself stupid.
"you" is a generalization
If you (Now I mean YOU) felt insulted, and got the impression that I was talking down to you- then the problem is your self-esteem. So please place the blame where it lies.

Where did that even come from? Where in my post did I state I'd prefer to avoid responding to your posts because I get the impression you constantly talk down to me (or others)? Even if this is a true habit of yours, it has nothing to do with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

I do not insinuate.. EVER.-. I just come out and say it or say nothing at all. That's actually my biggest problem I lack subtlety--I just come out and say it.

That's nice. But once again, where have I faulted you for "insinuating" things or not? Where did I imply I'd rather avoid responding to your posts because of this? How is this relevant?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

Insulting my grammar or "coarse language" is a petty insult and truthfully it doesn't bother or shame me if someone else says that.. Pay me by the hour and I will use perfect grammar. There is no such thing as "perfect English" it's a coarse, mutt language that is made up of other languages . . As long as you get my drift I'm good with that. (It's not like I get paid for this )

Once again, where did I fault you for your grammar or coarse language? And where in my post did I state that to be one of the reasons why I prefer avoiding you specifically? How is this relevant?

Quote:

If you don't want anyone or even if it's just me to reply to your post, than why post it?

Finally, a relevant point to respond to.

Because when it comes to you and I specifically, I don't see any point in it. Before you can even reply to anything I say, I can already assume with a high degree of accuracy that
a.) you're probably not going to agree with it
b.) I'm probably not going to agree with your response
So why even bother getting into it in the first place? It's why I didn't even try to debate your most recent claim of the hougyoku rejecting Aizen. Because no matter the proof or the claims, you're just going to dismiss them. It's like trying to talk to a wall. These are the only reasons I personally try to avoid you. You didn't have to highlight habits about your own posting style that you think might likely incite others to respond to your posts negatively. It has nothing to do with this.

Quote:

Once you post it in public place, you open yourself up for someone to say something. Sure we all have a right to our opinions I get that, but if you don't want anyone to comment on it then why opine? It's a "discussion forum" hell if you want to voice your opinions and you don't want anyone or even if it's just me to ever comment..then BLOG

Thanks for teaching me discussion forum basics 101.

Look. I can't stop you from replying to my posts. But based on how much you've gone on record for stating how frustrated you supposedly get at reading opinions from Bleach fans like myself, I can't imagine why you'd even want to reply in the first place--which is why I proposed what I did. Seriously, if two regular forum members can acknowledge the fact that they have very little to agree with in general then what's the problem with at least agreeing to avoid one-another if productive "discussion" likely won't take place?

But hey, if you want to continue replying to my posts, then fine. Though I can't promise it'll be worth your time, I can promise that I'll try harder to refrain from responding to those posts as well if I happen to once again disagree with your PoV.

Btw, I don't know what you had to say about the issue of rep apparently, but for the record, I don't neg rep.

Mangs · 2011-09-17, 21:33

Ignoring all the flaming and personal attacks that are going on in the posts above me, I’ll give my two cents on where I felt Bleach went wrong.

Two simple words: Character Development.

There are way too much focus on fighting and power in Bleach. Based on my personal opinions, as well as from reading all the posts on this forum over the course of many years, it seems like a lot of readers gets very excited whenever there’s some deep dialogues between the characters or some brief hints at romance, so why exactly is it that Kubo cannot give the fans what they want?

Sure, fights are good and all, it’s what defines Bleach, it’s a series about fights and explosions, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t any room for some character development.

One thing I always loved, but also one thing I found extremely strange, was that when the espada started dying, we would get a glimpse into their background upon their death. This was a very nice touch, because it actually made me care about their characters. However, making me care about a character after their death seems a bit pointless.

Marcus H. · 2011-09-18, 04:23

^ I wonder about that too. Is Kubo restrained from doing stuff because of the 20-odd pages that is allocated for him?

Ricky Controversy · 2011-10-14, 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

^ I wonder about that too. Is Kubo restrained from doing stuff because of the 20-odd pages that is allocated for him?

Quite the opposite, he's likely limited by having no say in how many more 20-odd-page sequences he has to produce. A common circumstance for writers of franchises, be they in television, manga, serialized prose, movies or video games is that they often find themselves having to think not in terms of the progression of the story, but of the lifespan of the 'product.'

You'll notice that while the writing in Bleach was never anything to write home about, it flowed a bit better, characters received a bit more individual attention, and it was less of a ghostly Dragonball Z and more of an urban fantasy. Once the series took off in popularity and it became apparent there was money to be had in its prolonged existence, it became as ridiculously protracted as possible, with loads of arbitrary ranking systems which we were forced to watch the characters work their way up through. Every time you think you've finished that arduous ascent, you realize you've only hit the bottom rung of whatever the new power-scale du jour is. Also, much has been said across the internet about Kubo's use of embarrassingly large new groups of characters to draw out each paper-thin plot.

Of course, that's only at the top level of plot structuring, and one can sympathize with Kubo to some extent. I'm sure his editors make a convincing case for riding the gravy train out. Where the blame rests squarely on his shoulders as mangaka is the actual page content. Painfully generic character sketches are repeatedly slapped onto blank or nearly blank panels: the choice of environment, having nearly every character able to fly, and the perspectives of each panel are all blatant efforts to avoid as much detail work as possible. Similarly, the absolutely insane amount of padding dialogue and overuse of 'dramatic' effects like low-detail surprised or angry faces on monochrome backgrounds leaves us with 20 mostly immaterial pages.

I have enough years of writing experience under my belt to know just how big of a pain it is to have to compromise your work with an eye to popular demand, but even if you decide to stretch the story, that's no excuse for slacking with what you do end up producing. Unfortunately, Kubo has mandate in the form of a voracious readership that, week after week, continues to read his work despite it having degenerated from a decently interesting urban fantasy to a painful trek through The Swamp of Shallow Characterization.

hyperjake · 2011-11-12, 13:10

I thought this article pretty much sums it up: 5 Reasons Why Bleach is Ridiculous - click here

Anyways, I am curious what you guys think about the list.

sayde · 2011-11-12, 13:50

I suppose there's no harm in relocating my response to that article here:

I can agree with points 1,2 & 4 for the most part in terms of how it helped contribute to where Bleach went wrong.

I admit though, that I don't fully agree with points 3 & 5. As far as #3 goes, I don't have much to say with regards as to how aging works in Soul Society, though he could've picked some better examples to poke at, (for instance comparing the appearance and ages of say...Hiyori to Gin & Byakuya). But as far as what happens when souls die in Soul Society goes, I just recently found out that they're supposedly reincarnated on earth as humans according to pg 96 of the "Official Character Book Souls".

It's also a mistake to compare Soul Society to heaven and then hold it against Kubo when Soul Society doesn't quite measure up. IIRC, the only time Soul Society was implied to be a good place was when Rukia tried to ease Shibata's (the parakeet) fears about moving on. And the reasons she gave were pretty weak and biased to begin with. Beyond that, Kubo has done a lot to make Soul Society seem like anything but perfect. It might as well be earth v2.0. It plays an important part in a cycle that helps maintain a balance. It was never intended to be a perfect paradise.

And point #5 fails completely for one simple reason. The person responsible for that article neglected to pay attention to the fact that the soul "king" has apparently been revealed to not be a "him" but a "thing". It's a lynchpin the likes of which we know very little about. We don't even know how sentient this "thing" is (if at all). So the reasons supporting the complaints on the issue don't hold up too well.

Prinnydood · 2011-11-14, 13:48

I story drags.. that's what bothers me the most.. it's like they took a story that's maybe supposed to last 75-100 or so chapters and stretched it out a TON.. it made it seem like not alot happened even though I just read through 430 chapters or so.

Decided to start reading Bleach a couple days ago because been wanting to for awhile so this is just my opinion right after reading so much of it.

You never really connect with most of the characters either.. like with One Piece, Claymore, and Soul Eater you have your favorite characters that stand out from the rest that you KNOW for a fact that you like, but with Bleach.. I didn't feel that with like any of the characters.. I probably liked Rukia the best out of all the rest, but besides that.. Idk..

Also there isn't any closure after they meet new people either. Like all the side characters just vanished and you never hear from them again....

About the article.. #1 isn't a HUGE issue.. it's just something on the side, but I don't mind it too much because the other problems stand out way more...... #2 Inoue is useless.. I mean if she were more like Rukia then it'd make sense, but yeah like the guy said in the article.. that damsel in distress concept is olddd.. need to expand on that. Still not one of the main issues though. Kubo still does a good job in portraying her personality. It's one of the few other characters that you can at least connect a little more with.

I started to read 3 and 5, but before even reading 3.. it's an anime.. it's not real.. don't question the concept... and 5.. seems like it wasn't exactly thought out that well, but it doesn't matter as much either. I agree with 4 though

maewie · 2011-11-17, 13:46

Moving this one here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by maewie

I have a feeling that no matter what Kubo does, the people of Animesuki forums will never be satisfied:P There's always something to complain about.

What would you guys have done then if you were Kubo? (Maybe i should make a thread like that..)

Alchemist007 · 2011-11-17, 16:38

Well I've made OT posts in the manga threads lightly detailing what I would've done (turn bleach into a seinen). These aren't half as well thought out as my parody comics so be warned

Lets see if I can dig those up.
Here's a couple:

Spoiler for Random:

Spoiler for Madness:

Nara_Clan_Shogi · 2011-11-17, 21:06

What went wrong with Bleach?

1). Fillers

2). Long battles with no emotional involvement

3). Loss of what made the setting interesting, (such as the sense of wonder and danger involved in invading soul society - as it turns out, every captain was a big fluffy puppy who just wants to be Ichigo's friend, and not the psychotic demigod dictatorship we thought)

4). Not enough actual drama

The real reason people watch action movies, action anime, etc, is NOT for the action.

You ask the average person why they enjoyed a given movie and they will run off a list of action scenes they thought were 'cool', leading companies to think people want more sword slashes and blood - in turn producing more lame movies.

The real reason why anyone enjoys these movies is their emotional and moral content - most people just don't realise this, or can't articulate it.

Bleach had a lot of emotional envolvement for the first couple of arcs up to Rukia's execution and Aizen's departure - since then, it has just been a repetative litany of boring fights, designed to be cool, but lacking much of the underpinning drama or wonder required to make us actually care about what happens.

One Piece and Naruto are far superior in this regard - although the Naruto anime is an injustice to the manga.

How could Bleach recover?

Well, I had some high hopes when the Xcution arc started, as it seemed to be getting back some of its emotional edgyness - the way Ichigo was meeting these strange people at night clandestinely, could have been played for massive emotional effect - kinda a metaphor for him growing into a young adult and falling in with a gang. But it is just devolving into more of the same.

ronin myael · 2011-11-18, 12:15

what i would have done with bleach if i were kubo? well, for one thing, i'd go easy on the mystery and secrets. personally, i thought he hinted on far too many secrets than he can handle, and he let them drag on for several chapters that most of his readers either lost interest or started to think of them as plot holes or just some lame plot device to prolong the series.

if i were him, i would have given more focus on aizen and his past, built him up as the ultimate baddie but not in terms of power but in terms of character. i've always felt that the character lacked depth. i could barely understand the guy and his motivations, so how can i loathe or sympathize with someone i barely know? his character was wrapped up in so much secrecy that he became boring. the hueco mundo arc should not have happened. it was just a repeat of the ss arc where they invaded some supposedly impenetrable place to rescue a comrade. besides, what was inoue's significance in that subplot anyway? she was forced to come to aizen and then what? the whole sacrifice thing was lame and melodramatic. rukia already covered that when she willingly left with byakuya and renji so that ichigo may survive. espada like grimmjow and ulquiorra doesn't need to fight ichigo in hueco mundo, they could do it right on top of karakura's bustling streets. hueco mundo was just a location and not a very interesting one in my opinion, it didn't hold that much significance to the story as far as i'm concerned.

i would have given some resolution to the espada as well. the way kubo dealt with nell and the others was downright shameful. how do you ignore characters just like that and expect your readers not to wonder what happened to them? you don't end an arc without ample resolution. it was just plain careless. and don't even get me started on the FKT arc and that poorly-executed war. that wasn't a war, in my opinion, that was a showdown between aizen and everyone else! why did he ever need those espada if he was so damn powerful anyway? i would have understood it if he used them as distractions and went ahead to find the soul king or something but he didn't, he actually hung around and got rid of his enemies one by one when his lackeys lacked the strength to finish them off. he should have just declared war on the world and destroyed them all. no need to bring his whole entourage. no need to recruit allies even. war is chaotic and to me that FKT war was too organized. there were match-ups and some just stood around waiting for their turn to fight. that doesn't happen in a real war. you don't wait for your turn to fight and you certainly don't choose who you're going to fight with, you fight the first enemy that comes your way and you don't stop until somebody dies. take for example oda's war of the best in one piece, now that was a war! it was chaotic, disorganized and everyone fought, nobody stood around waiting for their turn. if an enemy is too powerful to take down, several fighters would join forces in fighting him.

i would have given the vizards more exposure too. it was a shame that after all the hype they were no match for aizen. even shinji couldn't put a dent on aizen and that was really disappointing considering that they were supposedly ichigo's brethren, their masks should have given them power-ups that would rival the most powerful espada. the lack of information about their whereabouts after the war was also a disappointment. after pledging allegiance to ichigo they should have at least said their farewells to the guy. ichigo only said goodbye to one shinigami, rukia. she should have been the last but not the only one.

and then there's the fullbringer arc that made little to no sense. chapters that dragged on for too long, boring new characters (although tsukishima and yukio peaked my interest a bit), the mystery behind urahara and isshin's plans that seems like another plot device to keep the readers intrigued, the long disappearance of the shinigami only to return and kick the crap out of the fullbringers, and then chad, inoue and ishida's lack of power that they had to rely on the shinigami yet again. this arc shouldn't have happened at all, in my opinion. rather, if i were kubo i would write an arc that would answer all those questions left by the aizen war. i'd delve more into the soul king, isshin, urahara and even ishida's father's involvement in all of this. who the hell is ichigo and why does he have monstrous powers? questions like these should be answered and not left to hang for hundreds of dragging chapters.

kubo should have given more importance to ichigo's supporting cast as well. i agree that the shinigami are way cooler compared to chad, inoue and ishida but he could have made them cooler so the fans would pay more attention to them. that's why there's such a thing as character development. but there's very little to no change to their characters save for a little boost to their powers. even after all they've been through with ichigo they remained basically the same. inoue is still the ichigo-obsessed fangirl, chad still continues to try to grow stronger so he could fight alongside ichigo and ishida, unfortunately, was reduced to a mere comic relief. despite his training with his father he was cut down by ginjou just like that and now he's merely watching ichigo and ginjou's fight.

the ss arc was good. in fact, i thought bleach was brilliant once upon a time. i thought it was one of the coolest series i've ever read. but after the ss arc, it all went downhill. it's like kubo suddenly didn't know what to do with it. the best manga-ka plan several arcs ahead. they don't just write the first thing that comes to mind. but it seems that kubo doesn't plan that too far ahead and it's a shame because his series could certainly use it.

Aqua Knight · 2011-11-18, 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nara_Clan_Shogi

What went wrong with Bleach?

1). Fillers

Last fillers totally make your 1st reason worthless

Guernsey · 2011-11-18, 20:58

Ironicaly, the fillers have better plot focus and it didn't have Aizen.

Mangs · 2011-11-21, 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronin myael

what i would have done with bleach if i were kubo? well, for one thing, i'd go easy on the mystery and secrets. personally, i thought he hinted on far too many secrets than he can handle, and he let them drag on for several chapters that most of his readers either lost interest or started to think of them as plot holes or just some lame plot device to prolong the series.

if i were him, i would have given more focus on aizen and his past, built him up as the ultimate baddie but not in terms of power but in terms of character. i've always felt that the character lacked depth. i could barely understand the guy and his motivations, so how can i loathe or sympathize with someone i barely know? his character was wrapped up in so much secrecy that he became boring. the hueco mundo arc should not have happened. it was just a repeat of the ss arc where they invaded some supposedly impenetrable place to rescue a comrade. besides, what was inoue's significance in that subplot anyway? she was forced to come to aizen and then what? the whole sacrifice thing was lame and melodramatic. rukia already covered that when she willingly left with byakuya and renji so that ichigo may survive. espada like grimmjow and ulquiorra doesn't need to fight ichigo in hueco mundo, they could do it right on top of karakura's bustling streets. hueco mundo was just a location and not a very interesting one in my opinion, it didn't hold that much significance to the story as far as i'm concerned.

i would have given some resolution to the espada as well. the way kubo dealt with nell and the others was downright shameful. how do you ignore characters just like that and expect your readers not to wonder what happened to them? you don't end an arc without ample resolution. it was just plain careless. and don't even get me started on the FKT arc and that poorly-executed war. that wasn't a war, in my opinion, that was a showdown between aizen and everyone else! why did he ever need those espada if he was so damn powerful anyway? i would have understood it if he used them as distractions and went ahead to find the soul king or something but he didn't, he actually hung around and got rid of his enemies one by one when his lackeys lacked the strength to finish them off. he should have just declared war on the world and destroyed them all. no need to bring his whole entourage. no need to recruit allies even. war is chaotic and to me that FKT war was too organized. there were match-ups and some just stood around waiting for their turn to fight. that doesn't happen in a real war. you don't wait for your turn to fight and you certainly don't choose who you're going to fight with, you fight the first enemy that comes your way and you don't stop until somebody dies. take for example oda's war of the best in one piece, now that was a war! it was chaotic, disorganized and everyone fought, nobody stood around waiting for their turn. if an enemy is too powerful to take down, several fighters would join forces in fighting him.

i would have given the vizards more exposure too. it was a shame that after all the hype they were no match for aizen. even shinji couldn't put a dent on aizen and that was really disappointing considering that they were supposedly ichigo's brethren, their masks should have given them power-ups that would rival the most powerful espada. the lack of information about their whereabouts after the war was also a disappointment. after pledging allegiance to ichigo they should have at least said their farewells to the guy. ichigo only said goodbye to one shinigami, rukia. she should have been the last but not the only one.

and then there's the fullbringer arc that made little to no sense. chapters that dragged on for too long, boring new characters (although tsukishima and yukio peaked my interest a bit), the mystery behind urahara and isshin's plans that seems like another plot device to keep the readers intrigued, the long disappearance of the shinigami only to return and kick the crap out of the fullbringers, and then chad, inoue and ishida's lack of power that they had to rely on the shinigami yet again. this arc shouldn't have happened at all, in my opinion. rather, if i were kubo i would write an arc that would answer all those questions left by the aizen war. i'd delve more into the soul king, isshin, urahara and even ishida's father's involvement in all of this. who the hell is ichigo and why does he have monstrous powers? questions like these should be answered and not left to hang for hundreds of dragging chapters.

kubo should have given more importance to ichigo's supporting cast as well. i agree that the shinigami are way cooler compared to chad, inoue and ishida but he could have made them cooler so the fans would pay more attention to them. that's why there's such a thing as character development. but there's very little to no change to their characters save for a little boost to their powers. even after all they've been through with ichigo they remained basically the same. inoue is still the ichigo-obsessed fangirl, chad still continues to try to grow stronger so he could fight alongside ichigo and ishida, unfortunately, was reduced to a mere comic relief. despite his training with his father he was cut down by ginjou just like that and now he's merely watching ichigo and ginjou's fight.

the ss arc was good. in fact, i thought bleach was brilliant once upon a time. i thought it was one of the coolest series i've ever read. but after the ss arc, it all went downhill. it's like kubo suddenly didn't know what to do with it. the best manga-ka plan several arcs ahead. they don't just write the first thing that comes to mind. but it seems that kubo doesn't plan that too far ahead and it's a shame because his series could certainly use it.

I read that entire wall of text and agree with every bit of it.

FritzC · 2011-11-28, 23:58

My biggest problem with the manga/anime is the lack of relationships beyond fighting with/against each other.

No real best friends

No comradeship

No love

Without any of the above, it gets quite old...There are other ways to advance characters besides fighting, let's try them Kubo, shall we?

Alchemist007 · 2011-11-29, 00:20

The elements do exist, but they're not really flushed out in a meaningful way. Chad and Ichigo are buds and we got that sort of backstory so long ago, but it's really been an excuse to have a fodder character by his side.

2011-09-17, 08:44	Link #922
kitten320 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007	I must be stupid but Bleach never made me to think about anything... because majority of things that happen there don't have any connction or are made up on spot... The only thing that Bleach makes me think about is: How the hell one stab on bad guy is deadlier than thousands on good guy as well as being sliced in half, litteraly! P.S. Have to compliment you for not neg repping people, I hate those kinds who neg rep you and think they are smart instead of saying what they think openly. __________________ My anime list

2011-09-17, 08:46	Link #923
Haak Me, An Intellectual Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: UK Age: 33	Yeah I don't see any hidden depths in Bleach either besides fanwanking... And I'd like to know where LoP is getting this "Kubo says you have to think". I can't find any interviews where Kubo's said that... __________________ MAL \| AnimeSuki Choice Awards 2020 Winners

2011-09-17, 09:17	Link #924
Marcus H. Princess or Plunderer? Join Date: May 2009 Location: the Philippines	The only thing poetic in Bleach are the poems Kubo write at the start of each volume. __________________ Continuing: White Sand Aquatope (6/24) and Vanitas S2 (0/12), The Vampire Dies in No Time S2 and Bofuri S2 (3/12). 2021: Restaurant to Another World S2 (3/12), takt Op. Destiny (1/12) and Taisho Maiden Fairy Tale (1/12). 2022: Yuusha Yamemasu (1/12), Kaguya-sama S3, Mob Psycho 100 III (Oct06), Bleach: 1000 Year Blood War (2/13) and Chainsaw Man (6/12). Spring 2023: Yamada-kun to Lv999 no Koi wo Suru, Kuma Kuma Kuma Bear Punch! (4/12), Skip to Loafer, Tonikaku Kawaii S2 (1/12), Otonari ni Ginga (5/12) and Kimi wa Houkago Insomnia (3/13). Contact me on Wikia and MyAnimeList. Anime List Status ~ Watching: 33. Completed: 468. Plan to watch: 39.

2011-09-17, 21:33	Link #926
Mangs So sexy it hurts Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Norway Age: 35	Ignoring all the flaming and personal attacks that are going on in the posts above me, I’ll give my two cents on where I felt Bleach went wrong. Two simple words: Character Development. There are way too much focus on fighting and power in Bleach. Based on my personal opinions, as well as from reading all the posts on this forum over the course of many years, it seems like a lot of readers gets very excited whenever there’s some deep dialogues between the characters or some brief hints at romance, so why exactly is it that Kubo cannot give the fans what they want? Sure, fights are good and all, it’s what defines Bleach, it’s a series about fights and explosions, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t any room for some character development. One thing I always loved, but also one thing I found extremely strange, was that when the espada started dying, we would get a glimpse into their background upon their death. This was a very nice touch, because it actually made me care about their characters. However, making me care about a character after their death seems a bit pointless. __________________ I came, I saw, I pwned

2011-09-18, 04:23	Link #927
Marcus H. Princess or Plunderer? Join Date: May 2009 Location: the Philippines	^ I wonder about that too. Is Kubo restrained from doing stuff because of the 20-odd pages that is allocated for him? __________________ Continuing: White Sand Aquatope (6/24) and Vanitas S2 (0/12), The Vampire Dies in No Time S2 and Bofuri S2 (3/12). 2021: Restaurant to Another World S2 (3/12), takt Op. Destiny (1/12) and Taisho Maiden Fairy Tale (1/12). 2022: Yuusha Yamemasu (1/12), Kaguya-sama S3, Mob Psycho 100 III (Oct06), Bleach: 1000 Year Blood War (2/13) and Chainsaw Man (6/12). Spring 2023: Yamada-kun to Lv999 no Koi wo Suru, Kuma Kuma Kuma Bear Punch! (4/12), Skip to Loafer, Tonikaku Kawaii S2 (1/12), Otonari ni Ginga (5/12) and Kimi wa Houkago Insomnia (3/13). Contact me on Wikia and MyAnimeList. Anime List Status ~ Watching: 33. Completed: 468. Plan to watch: 39.

2011-11-12, 13:10	Link #929
hyperjake hypervyper Join Date: Mar 2010	I thought this article pretty much sums it up: 5 Reasons Why Bleach is Ridiculous - click here Anyways, I am curious what you guys think about the list.

2011-11-12, 13:50	Link #930
sayde Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	I suppose there's no harm in relocating my response to that article here: I can agree with points 1,2 & 4 for the most part in terms of how it helped contribute to where Bleach went wrong. I admit though, that I don't fully agree with points 3 & 5. As far as #3 goes, I don't have much to say with regards as to how aging works in Soul Society, though he could've picked some better examples to poke at, (for instance comparing the appearance and ages of say...Hiyori to Gin & Byakuya). But as far as what happens when souls die in Soul Society goes, I just recently found out that they're supposedly reincarnated on earth as humans according to pg 96 of the "Official Character Book Souls". It's also a mistake to compare Soul Society to heaven and then hold it against Kubo when Soul Society doesn't quite measure up. IIRC, the only time Soul Society was implied to be a good place was when Rukia tried to ease Shibata's (the parakeet) fears about moving on. And the reasons she gave were pretty weak and biased to begin with. Beyond that, Kubo has done a lot to make Soul Society seem like anything but perfect. It might as well be earth v2.0. It plays an important part in a cycle that helps maintain a balance. It was never intended to be a perfect paradise. And point #5 fails completely for one simple reason. The person responsible for that article neglected to pay attention to the fact that the soul "king" has apparently been revealed to not be a "him" but a "thing". It's a lynchpin the likes of which we know very little about. We don't even know how sentient this "thing" is (if at all). So the reasons supporting the complaints on the issue don't hold up too well.

2011-11-14, 13:48	Link #931
Prinnydood Madness Through Sound Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Californiaaaaaa Age: 33	I story drags.. that's what bothers me the most.. it's like they took a story that's maybe supposed to last 75-100 or so chapters and stretched it out a TON.. it made it seem like not alot happened even though I just read through 430 chapters or so. Decided to start reading Bleach a couple days ago because been wanting to for awhile so this is just my opinion right after reading so much of it. You never really connect with most of the characters either.. like with One Piece, Claymore, and Soul Eater you have your favorite characters that stand out from the rest that you KNOW for a fact that you like, but with Bleach.. I didn't feel that with like any of the characters.. I probably liked Rukia the best out of all the rest, but besides that.. Idk.. Also there isn't any closure after they meet new people either. Like all the side characters just vanished and you never hear from them again.... About the article.. #1 isn't a HUGE issue.. it's just something on the side, but I don't mind it too much because the other problems stand out way more...... #2 Inoue is useless.. I mean if she were more like Rukia then it'd make sense, but yeah like the guy said in the article.. that damsel in distress concept is olddd.. need to expand on that. Still not one of the main issues though. Kubo still does a good job in portraying her personality. It's one of the few other characters that you can at least connect a little more with. I started to read 3 and 5, but before even reading 3.. it's an anime.. it's not real.. don't question the concept... and 5.. seems like it wasn't exactly thought out that well, but it doesn't matter as much either. I agree with 4 though __________________

2011-11-17, 16:38	Link #933
Alchemist007 Senior Member Author Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA	Well I've made OT posts in the manga threads lightly detailing what I would've done (turn bleach into a seinen). These aren't half as well thought out as my parody comics so be warned Lets see if I can dig those up. Here's a couple: Spoiler for Random: Aizen did what he did in the SS arc just for the hell of it, for bloodthirst alone. He was tired of Shinigami this and Seireitei that. So he left for HM, he gathers 20 Vastos and leads the captains on about the King's Key. Then he attacks: Soul Society, starting with Seireitei. The Vastos decimate Seireitei in under an hour. Only a few captains and lieutenants manage to escape alive. Aizen becomes the ruler of SS and vows to make it a pure anarchy and introduces a permanently open passage for hollow to enter. Ichigo must then team up with the survivors and put an end to Aizen's plan. Wow, even that sounds like the Sensui arc from YYH. Spoiler for Madness: After running away from Unagiya (as Tsukishima had hypno'd her), Ichigo went dark; that is he stayed off the radar. Planning how to take revenge one day, and eventually comes back to a zombified KKT where he must fight or evade hoards of 'underlings' and eventually kill Tsukushima (with a sniper rifle) thus lifting the curse. It is then revealed that that there was no Tsukushima and that Ichigo was under Suigetsu's spell. He wakes up to see Aizen stabbed through the back by his father who had recovered enough. Then Aizen says something like "You...how could you to your own brother...?!" And dies. Ichigo blacks out. __________________ Fanfics Art MyAnimeList Last edited by Alchemist007; 2011-11-17 at 16:53.

2011-11-17, 21:06	Link #934
Nara_Clan_Shogi Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2008	What went wrong with Bleach? 1). Fillers 2). Long battles with no emotional involvement 3). Loss of what made the setting interesting, (such as the sense of wonder and danger involved in invading soul society - as it turns out, every captain was a big fluffy puppy who just wants to be Ichigo's friend, and not the psychotic demigod dictatorship we thought) 4). Not enough actual drama The real reason people watch action movies, action anime, etc, is NOT for the action. You ask the average person why they enjoyed a given movie and they will run off a list of action scenes they thought were 'cool', leading companies to think people want more sword slashes and blood - in turn producing more lame movies. The real reason why anyone enjoys these movies is their emotional and moral content - most people just don't realise this, or can't articulate it. Bleach had a lot of emotional envolvement for the first couple of arcs up to Rukia's execution and Aizen's departure - since then, it has just been a repetative litany of boring fights, designed to be cool, but lacking much of the underpinning drama or wonder required to make us actually care about what happens. One Piece and Naruto are far superior in this regard - although the Naruto anime is an injustice to the manga. How could Bleach recover? Well, I had some high hopes when the Xcution arc started, as it seemed to be getting back some of its emotional edgyness - the way Ichigo was meeting these strange people at night clandestinely, could have been played for massive emotional effect - kinda a metaphor for him growing into a young adult and falling in with a gang. But it is just devolving into more of the same.

2011-11-18, 12:15	Link #935
ronin myael lost ronin Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: in the recesses of my convoluted mind...	what i would have done with bleach if i were kubo? well, for one thing, i'd go easy on the mystery and secrets. personally, i thought he hinted on far too many secrets than he can handle, and he let them drag on for several chapters that most of his readers either lost interest or started to think of them as plot holes or just some lame plot device to prolong the series. if i were him, i would have given more focus on aizen and his past, built him up as the ultimate baddie but not in terms of power but in terms of character. i've always felt that the character lacked depth. i could barely understand the guy and his motivations, so how can i loathe or sympathize with someone i barely know? his character was wrapped up in so much secrecy that he became boring. the hueco mundo arc should not have happened. it was just a repeat of the ss arc where they invaded some supposedly impenetrable place to rescue a comrade. besides, what was inoue's significance in that subplot anyway? she was forced to come to aizen and then what? the whole sacrifice thing was lame and melodramatic. rukia already covered that when she willingly left with byakuya and renji so that ichigo may survive. espada like grimmjow and ulquiorra doesn't need to fight ichigo in hueco mundo, they could do it right on top of karakura's bustling streets. hueco mundo was just a location and not a very interesting one in my opinion, it didn't hold that much significance to the story as far as i'm concerned. i would have given some resolution to the espada as well. the way kubo dealt with nell and the others was downright shameful. how do you ignore characters just like that and expect your readers not to wonder what happened to them? you don't end an arc without ample resolution. it was just plain careless. and don't even get me started on the FKT arc and that poorly-executed war. that wasn't a war, in my opinion, that was a showdown between aizen and everyone else! why did he ever need those espada if he was so damn powerful anyway? i would have understood it if he used them as distractions and went ahead to find the soul king or something but he didn't, he actually hung around and got rid of his enemies one by one when his lackeys lacked the strength to finish them off. he should have just declared war on the world and destroyed them all. no need to bring his whole entourage. no need to recruit allies even. war is chaotic and to me that FKT war was too organized. there were match-ups and some just stood around waiting for their turn to fight. that doesn't happen in a real war. you don't wait for your turn to fight and you certainly don't choose who you're going to fight with, you fight the first enemy that comes your way and you don't stop until somebody dies. take for example oda's war of the best in one piece, now that was a war! it was chaotic, disorganized and everyone fought, nobody stood around waiting for their turn. if an enemy is too powerful to take down, several fighters would join forces in fighting him. i would have given the vizards more exposure too. it was a shame that after all the hype they were no match for aizen. even shinji couldn't put a dent on aizen and that was really disappointing considering that they were supposedly ichigo's brethren, their masks should have given them power-ups that would rival the most powerful espada. the lack of information about their whereabouts after the war was also a disappointment. after pledging allegiance to ichigo they should have at least said their farewells to the guy. ichigo only said goodbye to one shinigami, rukia. she should have been the last but not the only one. and then there's the fullbringer arc that made little to no sense. chapters that dragged on for too long, boring new characters (although tsukishima and yukio peaked my interest a bit), the mystery behind urahara and isshin's plans that seems like another plot device to keep the readers intrigued, the long disappearance of the shinigami only to return and kick the crap out of the fullbringers, and then chad, inoue and ishida's lack of power that they had to rely on the shinigami yet again. this arc shouldn't have happened at all, in my opinion. rather, if i were kubo i would write an arc that would answer all those questions left by the aizen war. i'd delve more into the soul king, isshin, urahara and even ishida's father's involvement in all of this. who the hell is ichigo and why does he have monstrous powers? questions like these should be answered and not left to hang for hundreds of dragging chapters. kubo should have given more importance to ichigo's supporting cast as well. i agree that the shinigami are way cooler compared to chad, inoue and ishida but he could have made them cooler so the fans would pay more attention to them. that's why there's such a thing as character development. but there's very little to no change to their characters save for a little boost to their powers. even after all they've been through with ichigo they remained basically the same. inoue is still the ichigo-obsessed fangirl, chad still continues to try to grow stronger so he could fight alongside ichigo and ishida, unfortunately, was reduced to a mere comic relief. despite his training with his father he was cut down by ginjou just like that and now he's merely watching ichigo and ginjou's fight. the ss arc was good. in fact, i thought bleach was brilliant once upon a time. i thought it was one of the coolest series i've ever read. but after the ss arc, it all went downhill. it's like kubo suddenly didn't know what to do with it. the best manga-ka plan several arcs ahead. they don't just write the first thing that comes to mind. but it seems that kubo doesn't plan that too far ahead and it's a shame because his series could certainly use it. __________________ "Sometimes you wake up. Sometimes the fall kills you. And sometimes, when you fall, you fly."~ Neil Gaiman (The Sandman) Last edited by ronin myael; 2011-11-18 at 12:25.

2011-11-18, 20:58	Link #937
Guernsey The GAP Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	Ironicaly, the fillers have better plot focus and it didn't have Aizen. __________________

2011-11-28, 23:58	Link #939
FritzC Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Age: 33	My biggest problem with the manga/anime is the lack of relationships beyond fighting with/against each other. No real best friends No comradeship No love Without any of the above, it gets quite old...There are other ways to advance characters besides fighting, let's try them Kubo, shall we?

2011-11-29, 00:20	Link #940
Alchemist007 Senior Member Author Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA	The elements do exist, but they're not really flushed out in a meaningful way. Chad and Ichigo are buds and we got that sort of backstory so long ago, but it's really been an excuse to have a fodder character by his side. __________________ Fanfics Art MyAnimeList