Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha the Movie 2nd A's Discussion Thread (spoilers)

[Sansker]

I said enough, not a lot. And she does have her own place in the fandom, half of her personality is also fanmade which actually hurts her a times but I don't think she gets that bad all things consider.

[bhl88]

I believe she prefers both men and women in the army.

[Archon_Wing]

TBH, I think the writer's disdain for Hayate became comical for me.

"Hey, she does hella awesome stuff! Just offscreen!" And thus leading to fan underappreciation. Though of course she also has to compete directly with her wolkies, which are granted the brunt of the emotional impact in A's. They also do all the flashy stuff and the front liners get the glory, mostly.

Though her strongest scenes are with Reinforce... and then everyone gets excited over Rein instead. Being Hayate is suffering.

Alternatively, she's just not as hot as Rein or the rest. That's why she insists on groping them.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sansker

I said enough, not a lot.

Which is.... about as subjective as you can get. I can assure you that finding any fan of Hayate who agrees that Hayate gets "enough" screentime will disagree rather vehemently. And for good reason too, she's one of the three aces for crying out loud.

[Demi.]

I'm not sure how things always regress into the Hayate debate, but we all know it goes round and round, never to reach a conclusion.

Personally, I think the main cause is StrikerS. It tried to do too many things with too many characters. Some were bound to get shafted. It doesn't help that they gave Hayate a commanding position, and not a combat oriented one.

[Keroko]

It's A's, the movie centered around Hayate. Hayate being central in a debate is... to be expected, really.

[Demi.]

How does one get shafted in a movie that centers around her? Unlike some other characters, Hayate isn't one that has less screen time compared to her series counterpart.

[Keroko]

I meant that more that in a general way.

[Sansker]

Enough attention, not screen time but whatever.

Hayate is again not really a main character because of how the story in A’s was structure. I hope the movie fix this issue, but I don’t see how we could actually do more with her because of how she is. Maybe just seeing more of her side of the drama that is going on will be better.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Enough attention, not screen time but whatever.

Yyyyeaaah, speaking as someone who likes Hayate? "but at least the fans really like her" doesn't count. Seriously, the main grumbling Hayate fans have is over her lack of appearance in the official materials. Saying "But hey, at least you guys give her lots of attention, huh?" doesn't make them feel any better.

Originally Posted by Sansker

Hayate is again not really a main character because of how the story in A’s was structure. I hope the movie fix this issue, but I don’t see how we could actually do more with her because of how she is. Maybe just seeing more of her side of the drama that is going on will be better.

She doesn't take much direct action, no. But the entire story revolves around her. Her story is told from the perspective of other characters, but she is the leading thread throughout the entire story. Beginning, build up, climax and resolution, Hayate is central through all of them.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Keroko

She doesn't take much direct action, no. But the entire story revolves around her. Her story is told from the perspective of other characters, but she is the leading thread throughout the entire story. Beginning, build up, climax and resolution, Hayate is central through all of them.

Well, she *IS* the most important character in the franchise.

Which is why it's sad she doesn't get more attention while characters who are far less important (save one) get far more screen time than she does.

[Sansker]

Hayate's small screen time isn’t my fault and I really don’t care, so that is up to you. I just mention the truth there. No matter how little she appears or how indifferent the rest are about her you still like her and that can be change. But whatever.

Hayate is not a main character. She is not even a main plot device. The Book of Darkness is more important to this story than Hayate because the Book is the true source of this incident. Hayate just reacts the best way to make the plot go on, but we are focus on how the rest react and how they care rather than seeing Hayate’s side. Is like Fate with Precia in the first season and the movie one. The main character was Fate, Precia was just the antagonist and the source of the troubles in an indirect way.

In A’s the story is about how the Wolkenritter find a new happy life and fight to defend it, despite being force to do bad things in the process and with the fear this might as well separates them from their new life. They are the ones who react, who get passionate about this and the ones who do the action. Hayate just sits there and is nice. So again, the characters are those we see and connect with. Hayate is hard to connect because she seems to be already in peace with all of this, being too distant to give us any kind of reaction or emotion that isn’t resignation. I just can’t help it but to like the more intense feelings Vita and the other bring to the table to really consider Hayate’s rather bland perspective of things. She was about to die and she didn’t seem to care at all she will be leaving now, despite having a new found family.

Does she act in the end? Yes, but really comes out as an odd way to just having her join the action. She could just take Reinforce out the book and then the rest blow the Defense Program away with her just being happy to have them back and etc. Hey, one of A’s flaws is that Reinforce just appear in the last chapters making the impact of her death kind of fade away. We barely see her at all. So no, I don’t think Hayate is a main character, she is a plot device, and not a bad one just not protagonist material and sure as hell not even half of intense as Fate or even some of the knights were, so Hayate feels flat for a main role and I want to see the movie fixing this.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Well, she *IS* the most important character in the franchise.

Which is why it's sad she doesn't get more attention while characters who are far less important (save one) get far more screen time than she does.

I'm not sure what logic you used to come to this conclusion, but...

Things that would entail the most important/main character are:


Interest the viewers show in the character
Their desired persuit of a goal or dream
Memorability
Complexity
Their connection with the reader
They're compelled or forced to grow and change.

Now how many of these does Hayate have, and how many of them does she do better than some of the other characters?

And I'm not sure if you mean "important" in a main character sense or in a technical sense, yet a main character will always be more important than a non-main character. That much is always true. And I do think Hayate is a main character (In A's at least).

[Nanya01]

*Chuckle* I was WONDERING if someone would challenge me on this.

Demi., think about Hayate for a moment, without her, let's say the Wolkenritter still end up on Earth around the time they did in canon, and they have a typical master, one who's willing to get the pages filled.

2 things are apparent quickly.

1: Wolkenritter are active sooner
2: They're not going to hold back

With these two things in mind...

Nanoha gets drained
Fate gets drained
Yuuno gets drained

Likely, the three end up dead or dying and no one can help them. Possible Precia helps Fate out, which leads to the next point.

Precia's likely to get drained if they find out about her.

If Chrono shows up, he gets drained as Nanoha, Yuuno and Fate are all out of it by this point in time.

Without Hayate to hold them back, that means Nanoha meets her end there.

Without Nanoha, Subaru doesn't get rescued and Teana stays hot-headed.

Fate's gone too (most likely), thus Erio and Caro never meet her. Erio stays in a research facility (or is put down after being too dangerous or put in a mental ward) while Caro ends up dying on a suicide mission because she can't control her Dragons.

Vivio never gets rescued. Thus, no ViVid.

No Subaru means Touma never gets rescued and thus Lily never gets rescued, thus the events in Force change dramatically.

So, yes, Hayate *IS* the most important character in the franchise.

Nanoha's a close second though.

[Demi.]

Except you're concluding a grimdark ending based on the lack of Hayate, when that torch could just as easily be passed onto someone less prone for world conquest. I don't know what planets the wolkenritter normally find themselves in, but the planet Nanoha and Hayate live on are less likely to give them an evil master hellbent on destroying all life. What I read is "because Hayate randomly happened upon a book with immeasurable power and because she is a nice girl; she is the most important character in the series." You're looking at the whole scenario as if Hayate can just sit in her room all day and do nothing, and she'll still be the most important character, because the series graced her with the almighty book of darkness. If that's the case, she can just as easily be replaced with any other sweet hearted girl/boy and nothing would change.

In that case, I hereby nominate the jewel seeds as the most important character in the Nanoha franchise. They've created some serious conflict over the three seasons...

[Rising Dragon]

Less prone to world conquest is fine and all, but if the theoretical alternate Master doesn't fill the book, s/he too is dead. The Book would move on to a new host, repeating the same cycle, and likely the Wolkenritter aren't redeemed. Either way, it means Hayate's less likely to come to power and form Riot Force Six, which means Mid-Childa is much less prepared to deal with Jail, and all the other post-A's stuff that happen in StrikerS, ViVid, and Force.

So in a roundabout way Nanya is correct--without Hayate, everything in the Nanohaverse's future is suspect.

[Keroko]

Interest the viewers show in the character
Exact numbers are hard to get, but there's plenty. Certainly directly behind Nanoha and Fate.

Their desired persuit of a goal or dream
Interestingly, Hayate has this down even better than Nanoha. Nanoha in S1 is pretty dreamless (though that is actually a part of her plot, and thus not a downside) while in A's she doesn't have much, but regains one in StrikerS with Vivio. Hayate meanwhile constantly keeps looking beyond the horizon. In A's she wanted to take care of her new family, in StrikerS she strove to advance the Ground Forces, in Force she's the driving force behind the effort to stop the Eclipse.

Memorability
Ehh, subjective. Can't really give any arguments on this one.

Complexity
Not much there, but Nanoha characters are all pretty basic to begin with. I suppose we could dive deeper into motivations, in which case "the girl who regained her legs and could finally go after her dreams" is right up there with Fate.

Their connection with the reader
Another subjective one, and one I wouldn't really quantify as being a good measure for a main character. I never really connected with Fate, but I'll be damned before I claim she wasn't the main character of S1.

They're compelled or forced to grow and change.
Oh, Hayate has that one down stat. She's really the only of the old cast who keeps looking beyond today what tomorrow has to offer.

Originally Posted by Nanya01

So, yes, Hayate *IS* the most important character in the franchise.

Nanoha's a close second though.

'cept I can make the same list for Nanoha. No Nanoha, no TSAB presence on earth, no stopping Precia from blowing everything to smithereens or the book of darkness from doing so, no saving Subaru, no stopping the Cradle etc. etc.

Hayate's an important character to the Nanoha franchise, but I wouldn't go as far as to claim her the most important one.

[Sansker]

Is a way to look at her but that relies too much on suppositions. In the end Demi is right: the book ends with a nice enough person and that doesn’t ends with everyone dead. So really we will need to give really low credit to Nanoha and the rest to think that is how it will go down. All the Wolkenritter needed was a master nice enough to not use them as tools and the rest kind of comes along. Hayate is not the most important character.

Besides if we lost StrikerS, ViVid and Force is not like we are losing something of value.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Demi.

In that case, I hereby nominate the jewel seeds as the most important character in the Nanoha franchise. They've created some serious conflict over the three seasons...

The Jewel Seeds aren't characters, stop being stupid about that.

BTW, Yuuno's one of the most important characters in the series as well, without him, well, Nanoha wouldn't have gotten magic or met any of the other characters...

And to that point, Graham is as well, you have to majorly re-write A's to work without him. (Which is what this movie is attempting to do...)

And, of course, Jail rounds out the 5 most important characters list. Without him, no cyborgs, no Vivio, no Fate, Erio, or Arf.

Originally Posted by Demi.

Except you're concluding a grimdark ending based on the lack of Hayate, when that torch could just as easily be passed onto someone less prone for world conquest.

Isn't that what USUALLY happens with the Book of Darkness? Hasn't entire worlds been lost thanks to that Lost Logia before Hayate got it? Even with kind hearted masters in the past, it remained the same.

Originally Posted by Demi.

I don't know what planets the wolkenritter normally find themselves in, but the planet Nanoha and Hayate live on are less likely to give them an evil master hellbent on destroying all life.

It doesn't have to be an evil master, Demi. Just someone who finds that the Book is supposed to grant their desire or give them a wish, now, think for a moment, think on the Jewel Seeds, even if it's something minor, everyone has desires and wishes. Hayate's just happened to be that she wanted a family.

Originally Posted by Demi.

What I read is "because Hayate randomly happened upon a book with immeasurable power and because she is a nice girl; she is the most important character in the series."

Not quite. Without her SPECIFICALLY telling the Wolkenritter "no gathering Linker Cores", well... They would have done so (and they did anyway, but later on, imagine if they were active in Season 1 when Fate wasn't friendly).

Originally Posted by Demi.

You're looking at the whole scenario as if Hayate can just sit in her room all day and do nothing, and she'll still be the most important character, because the series graced her with the almighty book of darkness. If that's the case, she can just as easily be replaced with any other sweet hearted girl/boy and nothing would change.

No, Demi., that won't happen. You'd have to find someone who's not only kind-hearted, but also without any sort of desire that the book could offer without magic.

Even Nanoha had a desire to find her place in life, even though SHE'S one of the nicest people around, she'd STILL have the desire, deep down, to get the magic to do stuff and make a difference in the world if she got the book and Hayate got RH. (might make for an interesting story though.)

[Demi.]

I just think it's a dumb way to reference a character as "the most important."

There wouldn't even be a second season if not for the first, and Hayate did not originate there.

If we're going to use that roundabout means, then it would be just as fair to create a list using what brings in the most income for Tsuzuki to continue creating sequels.

And Graham? lol. Well, the movies a good example of how you can remove an "important character" and still keep it coherent.