[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[GreyZone]

Did you regain your motivation after reading EP5?

[Sauzer]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Did you regain your motivation after reading EP5?

To be honest, like I said, I just want to find out waht happens next now

Tho I suppose (as referenced in game 10 mins before) Battler does announce "I now know everything", so I should be solvable at this point.

But at this point I just want to know what happens next and see Erika stomped into ground by a reall mystery

edit: one point does stick out though - if noone can mistake Kinzo no matter what, then (just like this ep) Battler loses all credibility in ep2 and becomes a suspect, making a murderous trio with Rosa and Maria. Though by that logic it would also violate quite a few Knox's rules about him being a detective at the time and hints from supernatural forces and clues not in evidence etc.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Sauzer

To be honest, like I said, I just want to find out waht happens next now

Tho I suppose (as referenced in game 10 mins before) Battler does announce "I now know everything", so I should be solvable at this point.

But at this point I just want to know what happens next and see Erika stomped into ground by a reall mystery

edit: one point does stick out though - if noone can mistake Kinzo no matter what, then (just like this ep) Battler loses all credibility in ep2 and becomes a suspect, making a murderous trio with Rosa and Maria. Though by that logic it would also violate quite a few Knox's rules about him being a detective at the time and hints from supernatural forces and clues not in evidence etc.

The last scene in EP2 was just Battler having a dream after falling asleep after having drunk too much alcohol. Well... maybe...

[Sauzer]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

The last scene in EP2 was just Battler having a dream after falling asleep after having drunk too much alcohol. Well... maybe...

If Battler is prone to falling asleep and having vivid dreams, without stating them as such, then his point of view cannot be trusted to being with!

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Sauzer

For almost the entire ep5 it seemed kinda mediocre. Then it was good at the trial. Then it became epic at the "????"
Seiroulsy the best "????" yet!

As much as I liked the ending (and thought the first part was, indeed, kinda mediocre), I thought the trial was one of the lowest points in the series. It takes the form of the logic battles of the prior episodes on a supposedly more epic scale, yet it's full of blatant cheating, shifting goalposts, ill-defined rules, and is fundamentally unfair without the fundamental unfairness really being called out as a theme (it's possible that was the point, but it seems odd that Dlanor of all people wouldn't be upset over an unfair trial, and Battler doesn't seem to notice it either).

It sort of takes the stakes away from what the logic battles are supposed to be about if we know one side is flat-out wrong yet they're allowed to "win" anyway because they can conjure red out of thin air and rely on it while the other side has to "prove" things despite not being allowed any remotely similar advantage. It's not the worst or most pointless red/blue battle in the series, but it's a colossal letdown if you examine it on any critical level. It could've been better, but in the end it's just more of a cheating curbstomp that Battler "wins" through last-second revelations and the random deus ex machina of gold truth (which appears to defeat Erika simply because she doesn't know what you even do with gold truth, much like the audience).

[Sauzer]

Originally Posted by Renall

As much as I liked the ending (and thought the first part was, indeed, kinda mediocre), I thought the trial was one of the lowest points in the series. It takes the form of the logic battles of the prior episodes on a supposedly more epic scale, yet it's full of blatant cheating, shifting goalposts, ill-defined rules, and is fundamentally unfair without the fundamental unfairness really being called out as a theme (it's possible that was the point, but it seems odd that Dlanor of all people wouldn't be upset over an unfair trial, and Battler doesn't seem to notice it either).

It sort of takes the stakes away from what the logic battles are supposed to be about if we know one side is flat-out wrong yet they're allowed to "win" anyway because they can conjure red out of thin air and rely on it while the other side has to "prove" things despite not being allowed any remotely similar advantage. It's not the worst or most pointless red/blue battle in the series, but it's a colossal letdown if you examine it on any critical level. It could've been better, but in the end it's just more of a cheating curbstomp that Battler "wins" through last-second revelations and the random deus ex machina of gold truth (which appears to defeat Erika simply because she doesn't know what you even do with gold truth, much like the audience).

On Dlanor I agree completely. Like I said even Erika herself trampled all over Dlanor's beloved Knox rules and she did nothing. And I'm pretty sure at one point Dlanor used a Knox rule against Battler moments after Erike broke it.
Hm.. perhaps I liked "???" just because of the built-up rage against Erika?

[Renall]

She's certainly not meant to be a character you like.

...Not that this somehow stopped a bunch of people from unironically liking her as anything more than a villain when this episode first came out. I dunno either.

[Sauzer]

Originally Posted by Renall

She's certainly not meant to be a character you like.

...Not that this somehow stopped a bunch of people from unironically liking her as anything more than a villain when this episode first came out. I dunno either.

There are villians you love to hate. And then there are villians you want to see get slowly eaten alive by insects.

Guess where Bern and Erika are for me
Surprisingly Lambda managed to move a tiny bit away from that category.

Also while on talk about cheap moves:
"but it has never been said that there was a rule against something other than a corpse being called a corpse." WTF Ronoue

[Renall]

To be fair, a "corpse" is basically just a "body." If you say someone's body is in a room it implies their death, but it doesn't necessarily prove they're dead.

Granted it's still a bit cheap given the common parlance for corpse tends to mean "dead body." But maybe that's a translation thing.

[Sauzer]

Originally Posted by Renall

To be fair, a "corpse" is basically just a "body." If you say someone's body is in a room it implies their death, but it doesn't necessarily prove they're dead.

Granted it's still a bit cheap given the common parlance for corpse tends to mean "dead body." But maybe that's a translation thing.

Still, even re-reading the morning after 1st twilight. even now it doesnt make sense.

They're all in on this except Natsuhi, Krauss and Erika?

When Erika enters the room everyone is upset over the deaths of 4 in the cousins room. Was she blind enough not to notice that bodies were not there? And she questioned everyone.

[Drifloon]

I'm pretty sure they covered the faces of the "corpses" before Erika came in, and apparently she didn't bother to actually investigate the scene. (She justified this later by saying that she could easily get red confirmations of the deaths later, so questioning the witnesses was more important. Not that there's really any reason why she couldn't have done both, but EP5 runs on weird logic in general.)

Originally Posted by Renall

As much as I liked the ending (and thought the first part was, indeed, kinda mediocre), I thought the trial was one of the lowest points in the series. It takes the form of the logic battles of the prior episodes on a supposedly more epic scale, yet it's full of blatant cheating, shifting goalposts, ill-defined rules, and is fundamentally unfair without the fundamental unfairness really being called out as a theme (it's possible that was the point, but it seems odd that Dlanor of all people wouldn't be upset over an unfair trial, and Battler doesn't seem to notice it either).

Well, I did really enjoy the trial the first time I played through the series, because of the dramatic atmosphere and the feeling of hopelessness as Natsuhi gets pushed deeper and deeper towards despair. But you're right that it doesn't really hold up logically at all on a reread. I have similar feelings regarding the battle in the ????, though the part leading up to it is absolutely perfect.

That said, I don't think I would agree that the unfairness of the trial wasn't pointed out at all. I think it was supposed to seem reasonably fair at first and then become more and more obviously farcical as it went on, which sort of worked even though it's done a bit awkwardly. As for Battler not seeming to notice, well...

"I......don't like it. ......If no one will believe Natsuhi oba-san, then I will...!! The real truth isn't something that's determined when everyone accepts it! It's something you find after thoroughly investigating both possibilities...! So this trial is a downright lie! This trial exists for no reason other than to set Natsuhi oba-san up as the culprit!!"

It's not as pronounced as it could be, but it's there. As for Dlanor, I got the impression that she wasn't really allowed to object since she is Erika's furniture in this game. She did at least try to turn things around by giving Battler a chance to object to the ruling.

[Renall]

I said "as a theme," not that it isn't raised. The trial is indisputably unfair, and everyone recognizes it both outside the story and inside. The issue is more that Battler realizes this and... does nothing about it. Honestly, had he just never been told of Natsuhi's innocence in red the realization that it's a show trial would be better. That way Battler could at least strongly suspect the whole thing is a sham but have no way of proving it (because, let's face it, we know Erika's theory is bogus due to that red, as if the Kinzo thing weren't enough).

The same thing with the people prosecuting the trial. They don't act like it's unfair or that they're just arbitrarily making up rules to shut Battler down. That is basically what they're doing, but the notion that this justice is fundamentally unjust is sort of disconnected from the actual drama. Battler touches on the heart of it (quite literally) but is incapable of arguing against why this is an injustice.

I think with some rewrites it'd be fine, mostly to make the rules "fair" but fundamentally exploitable to set Natsuhi up. And again, remove that red about Natsuhi until much later in the ????, as all it does is make black and white that nothing Erika is doing has any merit.

[Sauzer]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

I'm pretty sure they covered the faces of the "corpses" before Erika came in, and apparently she didn't bother to actually investigate the scene. (She justified this later by saying that she could easily get red confirmations of the deaths later, so questioning the witnesses was more important. Not that there's really any reason why she couldn't have done both, but EP5 runs on weird logic in general.)

That's the thing. They did cover up the corpses but.

Erika enters the scene, questions the witnesess. how could that questioning go so incredibly wrong that Erika would get a false impression of wether the bodies were here to begin with?

It's like the questions where:
who discovered the bodies first?
Nanjo can you confirm their death?
When did Eva come to the scene of the crime?
When did Rudolf did?
uhuh, understood...
And then on the next day everyone is like "Wait, didn't I mention the bodies weren't actually in the cousins room? I'm sure I did..."

And everyone is sobbing in Battler's room why? And not in the place where the actuall bodies are? Eva is just overreacting over the blood even though there are no bodies? And yet Nanjo confirms their death by throats being cut?

It's just too convoluted.

Originally Posted by Drifloon

As for Dlanor, I got the impression that she wasn't really allowed to object since she is Erika's furniture in this game. She did at least try to turn things around by giving Battler a chance to object to the ruling.

Yeah and the Dlanor part pissed me off the most.

"You aren't allowed to build a case in your defense because of rules x,y,z. However rules x,y,z can be ignored to build a case against you". enjoy.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by Sauzer

If Battler is prone to falling asleep and having vivid dreams, without stating them as such, then his point of view cannot be trusted to being with!

We can go further and state that if we can't trust the "detective's" viewpoint, we can't trust anyone's viewpoint(except our own).

Without Love, it can't be seen. We who exist outside of the Game Boards of Rokkenjima are the closest thing to an impartial view, and the only ones who can uncover the truth.

Also, we should take Virgilia's promise to Battler to mean ourselves as well.

Ryukishi wanted us to solve the game.

Because he wanted us to solve the game, it's solvable.

[Kealym]

Sauzer, I think you're misunderstanding.

The bodies WERE in the room when Erika was there in the morning, but she did not actually look at them, herself. Well, she probably saw them under the sheets, but she didn't see them the way, say, Battler saw the dead parents in the chapel back in EP2.

Also, while you can try to rationalize the end of EP2 in whatever way you choose, it probably won't be helpful to you to therefore assume Battler's viewpoint is suddenly untrustworthy. Considering Beatrice was wearing her gown, and Bern's presence, I assume that was entirely a META scene, representing Battler basically giving up on reasoning. The same thing is reflected when it happens to Beato at the trial, yes? Except Bern is much more excited about it this go around. XD

[Sauzer]

Well, I do understand how Erika is made as somekind of a parallel with of how people were probably sowling ep1-4. Hell, that's exactly how I've been solving it - throw everything at the wall and see what sticks. As long as "how" is plausible will stick the "who and why" after that

However in ep1-4 only once was the case handed on a platter - Eva in ep3. And even then it was included with a rock-solid alibi for the first 5 murders, Nanjo's murder and 0 motive for her family's murders.

In ep5 the detective, Game-master and a witch all started framing a person before the murders even started. So there's a slight difference.

And I'm pretty sure that if I re-read eps 1-4 I'll find quite a few hints and clues I surely missed + it's easier to look for something with all of information up till now, but I just don't have the bloody time for that

But I asume one way to solve umineko and find at least the part of "the truth" is look at everyone's motives. When those motives clash - things go bad. Coupling with things known about certain characters. Then looking at events during each episodes, try to find changes and it's results. Basically figure out "why". After that "who and how" will fall into place. Sounds nice in theory

Motives/objectives that I can think of:
Krauss - Hide Kinzo's death; Hide his embezzlement; gain a lot of money to cover his losses before the previous two are discovered; protect his rights to be the next family head.
Natsuhi - Hide Kinzo's death; Hide Krauss's embezzlement; gain a lot of money to cover Krauss's losses before the previous two are discovered; protect Krauss's rights to be the next family head; protect Kinzo's and Ushiromiya family's honour.
Jessica - Be acknowladged for who she realy is, not the person her family wants her to be; Get together with Kanon; Help George and Shannon get together.

Eva - Become the next family head; Let George become the next family head; Prevent Krauss from becoming the next family head; gain a lot of money to save her Hideyoshi's firm; find a suitable wife for George; Prevent Shannon from getting together with George.
Hideyoshi - Gain a lot of money to save his business; support Eva
George - Get married to Shannon; succeed Hideyoshi's business

Rudolf - Gain a lot of money to save his firm; Prevent Krauss from becoming the next family head
Kyrie - Gain a lot of money to save Rudolf's firm; support Rudolf
Battler - Restore his connection with the Ushiromiya family; Have a fun time with his cousins?

Rosa - Gain a lot of money to save her firm; Find happiness; Find a way to deal with Maria
Maria - Restore Rosa's love for her; Destroy the evil side of Rosa; Make people believe her; Find friends who believe her

Genji - Faithfully serve Ushiromiya family; Hide Kinzo's death by orders of Ushiromiya Krauss and Natsuhi
Shannon - Become something more than just a servant; Get married to George; Help Kanon become something more than just a servant; Help Jessica and Kanon get together; Hide Kinzo's death by orders of Ushiromiya Krauss and Natsuhi
Kanon - Support and protect Shannon; Hide Kinzo's death by orders of Ushiromiya Krauss and Natsuhi
Gohda - Be acknowladged by Ushiromita family
Kumasawa - Hide Kinzo's death to get paid
Nanjo - Hide Kinzo's death to get paid

If I'd reread previous eps, I'm sure I'd find more. And as for the last two. Kumasawa's objectives seem to be to sleep a lot and do her jobs with the least effort possbile. And since Kinzo's dead Nanjo's only real objective could be to get a lot of easy money, since I don't see how hiding Kinzo's death would honour their friendship or something.

[Sauzer]

Well I this point I kinda give up I'm afraid.

As this ep clearly stated it's pointless to try and "solve" the crimes and mysterys if you can't figure out "the truth", since you end up just slapping "guilty" verdict on whoever possible as long as it's plausible. And I agree

I can slap ep1 murders on Nanjo/Kanon/Shannon; ep2 on George/Shannon/Rosa or ep3 on Eva/Kyrie, but without myself fully understanding "why" it does indeed seem shallow.

So the key really must be Battler's sin.
Whatever Battler's sin was he was sad and mourned Beatrice's death, even though she killed his family over and over again. How can you forgive someone like that? And what kind of sin would cause mass murders to happen six years later?

Would his sin be the same against real world "Beatrice" and META-Beatrice?
The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice.

Well, Beatrice was the human that lived and died on 1967, so the red is probably refering to that Beatrice. And the "Beatrice" on the balcony of the mansion is not Beatrice either. So this red doesn't really apply to anything, probably even if you can answer "who is Beatrice?".

And right now, there is no one other than you on this island. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere.
You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you.

Beatrice is basicly saying she's not human. Or even anything living.
If Beatrice is the island, then how can you sin against the island? Actually do it real harm that causes some kind of an accident?
Is Beatrice somekind of manifestation of evil will against Battler for his sin? Though in human world there's supposed to be no magic, so how can a malevolent force kill someone? Even if indirectly.


How much is really known about Battler six years ago?
He cut all ties with Ushiromiya. He used to speak "english". He used to stay a lot of random stuff and make not very realistic promises. He's still bad at noticing other girls affections for him.

Beatrice really heavily mocked Battler's "english", so that should be a big clue. Though pretty much everyone could know about this quirk of his.

Who would Battler's leaving cause harm to, enough to cause murders?
Battler's family is third in ranking so Eva and Krauss wouldn't give a damn. Along with Natsuhi and Hideyoshi.
Rosa had her hands full with Maria, so doubt it would affect her.

Kyrie could be pretty mad with him for leaving the family just when she became a part of it, but then why on earth she'd start murdering people when Battler returned to said family? And "Beatrice" said to Battler "I have no interest in matters concerning your immidiate family or your home". So Kyrie and Rudolf are not only out as far as Battler's sin is concerned, but also are ruled out as "Beatrice".

Kinzo would be kinda livid, but he's been dead for over a year.

"Where are we? Rokkenjima"

So the sin is connected to the isnald/people living on it.
Krauss, Natsuhi, Jessica, Shannon, Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo.

The latter three make very little sense. Kanon and Gohda weren't even on the island at the time. Krauss is out for reasons mentioned before. Natsuhi values the honour of Ushiromiya family a lot, so it makes even less sense to start a killing spree.

Which leaves Jessica or Shannon. What could Battler do to them to cause a slaughter upon his return? Physically hurting them is out. Battler wouldn't leave the family, he'd be banished. And Krauss would beat the crap out of Battler for hurting Jessica.

In ep4 I made a theory that Shannon had feeling for Battler and he hurt those feelings by saying something bad. Maybe it's the other way around as AuraTwilight pointed out. Battler promises to come back to Shannon on a white horse next year and after that drops out of Ushiromiya family for six years. After he comes back he doesn't even remember his feelings/promises for/to Shannon.

In ep1 Shannon went as far as letting Battler grope her chest. Would she do that for any honoured gest?

I could see Jessica trying to pair Shannon with George to help Shannon get over Battler. But then all of those feelings toward George become false/get overriden by Battler's return? And right when Shannon is about to recieve an engagement ring?

Another problem with this theory is Shannon shows nothing but clumsiness, timidlessness and pure-heartness unless she's in the "fantasy" scenes where she gets more serious. I mean sure, there is a saying about fury and a scorned woman, but to what end.

If anyone George has plenty of motives and wilingness to do anything to be together with Shannon. But he has concrete alibi in ep1, he's dead in ep4 when Battler talk to "Beatrice" and it's hard to imagine Battler's sin be against George of all people.

So yeah, call me stupid or lazy, but painting Nanjo as a guilty for life accomplace who gets betrayed is as far as I go.

Congratz to people who solved everything at ep5 or even ep4. You're insane!

[AuraTwilight]

Well, Beatrice was the human that lived and died on 1967, so the red is probably refering to that Beatrice. And the "Beatrice" on the balcony of the mansion is not Beatrice either. So this red doesn't really apply to anything, probably even if you can answer "who is Beatrice?".

What she's basically saying is that the Beatrice he was talking to isn't the person he wronged; despite how angry she seems over what he did, she was not the victim.

Beatrice is basicly saying she's not human. Or even anything living.
If Beatrice is the island, then how can you sin against the island? Actually do it real harm that causes some kind of an accident?
Is Beatrice somekind of manifestation of evil will against Battler for his sin? Though in human world there's supposed to be no magic, so how can a malevolent force kill someone? Even if indirectly.

She's not saying she's the island in those reds, you're extrapolating that. She seems to be referencing whatever force causes everyone to die at 24:00 October 5th. It's a "What Am I?" puzzle that tells him "Even if the culprit dies, the deaths don't stop."

I could see Jessica trying to pair Shannon with George to help Shannon get over Battler. But then all of those feelings toward George become false/get overriden by Battler's return? And right when Shannon is about to recieve an engagement ring?

Ryukishi said this in an interview, so All love in the series is real. Now that's not to say that Shannon didn't get with George to get over Battler or something like you speculated, but if such is the case she's now in love with two people.

[Sauzer]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

What she's basically saying is that the Beatrice he was talking to isn't the person he wronged; despite how angry she seems over what he did, she was not the victim.

Wait is that Meta-Beatrice or balcony Beatrice? The way you said it implies that balcony Beatrice also isn't the person Battler wronged.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

She's not saying she's the island in those reds, you're extrapolating that..

I know she isn't. Was just commenting on my own theory. Sorry =/

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Ryukishi said this in an interview, so All love in the series is real. Now that's not to say that Shannon didn't get with George to get over Battler or something like you speculated, but if such is the case she's now in love with two people.

Which basically is the final nail in the coffin for that theory

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Forget what I wrote.