2007-10-25, 09:52 | Link #81 | ||
Gone for Good
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Or are you suggesting Kyo-Ani's Kyou is a brand new character altogether? Why would they do such a thing when they aim to be as faithful to the original as possible, as they have done with past Key games? |
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2007-10-25, 10:33 | Link #82 | |||||||||
Misuzu & Kotomi Protector
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philippines
Age: 41
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Q: Am I trying trying to say that the Rugby is tsuntsun towards Sunohara? A: 100000% Sure! Q: Are they deredere towards themselve? A: How would I know? Did they even show they're deredere in the game and in the show? All they did were show their tsuntsun (bad temper/frustration/etc.) side towards Sunohara. Quote:
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Her acts of trying to strangle Tomoya is because she cares for her reputation(a normal tsundere reaction). Why? She's embarrassed or in a hot-temper (if you don't want to use a strong word like angry) about it. A person who's not a tsundere wouldn't react like Kyou. Do you understand now? Now, bring in more examples of Kyou being tsun? If you don't see most of her tsun scene in the anime, then what's your definition of tsun? You're explaining why that kind of her reaction is normal, and not why she is not a tsun. Being a tsun doesn't mean reacting to something. It has a more deeper meaning. And one of the meaning is being a bad/hot-tempered person or aloof or whatever. I wouldn't say that to Kyou because she might go in tsun mode and pummel me. Quote:
We already defined Kyou as a tsuntsun type because of the fact that she's a hot-tempered/wild/easily ticked off/etc. etc. person. We already defined Kyou as a deredere as well because despite having a tsuntsun side, she do easily gets embarrassed and warmhearted and etc. etc. You get what we mean? Tsundere is about personality, be it whole or developing. You say it's a normal reaction (a normal reaction to you but not to everyone), but that's one of the reason why she became a tsun and at the same time tsundere in the first place, we haven't seen much of her deredere side as of yet except for the Botan scene though. Quote:
Last edited by dgreater1; 2007-10-25 at 11:57. |
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2007-10-25, 10:36 | Link #83 |
<unranked>
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Toronto
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Just a few questions regarding the tsundere :
1.) Where would we draw the line between acting 'being friendly in a boyish way' and 'tsun'? 2.) Suppose Kyou was a guy (refrains from using a 'bi' joke), would we still use tsundere to refer to her personality? (compared to... say Kyon in SHnY, which I've heard people referring to him as such) |
2007-10-25, 10:58 | Link #84 | |
Misuzu & Kotomi Protector
Join Date: Mar 2007
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2a) Tsundere is a Japanese word describes a girl with a bad attitude (tsuntsun) but gradually develops into a shy. loving, adorable, etc. etc. person (deredere), not eliminating her tsun personality though (traditional definition). See Shana, Sawatari Makoto, Suiseiki, Tohsaka Rin, Akane Tendo, Nadia (Fushigi no Umi no Nadia), etc. It's about character development 2b) Tsundere is a Japanese word that describes a girl with a personality of being a tsuntsun and a deredere above most of her personality (modern definition). See Kagami, Anya, Asuna Kagurazaka, Asuka, Ayu (or was it Mayu from Rumbling Hearts?) etc. etc. It's about the personality as a whole 2c) Kyon is tsun because he's almost always in bad mood due to Haruhi but he's not supposed to be called a tsundere because that would make him look like a gay XD) Imagine him, blushing trying to talk his way out. Last edited by dgreater1; 2007-10-25 at 11:58. |
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2007-10-25, 11:57 | Link #85 | |
Martian diplomat
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dgreater1, if you really want to use examples, tell me: is Nagisa a tsundere? |
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2007-10-25, 12:54 | Link #86 | |||
Misuzu & Kotomi Protector
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philippines
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As far as I can see, you're definition of tsun in tsundere is a bit wrong because you're applying something else when it should only be describing personality. Did Nagisa start with a hot-tempered personality? (can be considered wild, a form of tsun) (traditional definition) Is she someone who always becomes irritated? (a form of tsun) (modern definition) Not, right? She's just a gentle and loving girl who can also get embarrassed sometimes. A simple explanation... Traditional Tsundere == Tsuntsun ----> Deredere (It means, from being someone who has a bad attitude to someone loving) Modern Tsundere == Tsuntsun+Deredere (It means someone who has a bad attitude but really weak/lovable/moonstruck/etc. inside) and the tsuntsun part is more obvious than the deredere part. Anyway, a much more easier to understand term for tsuntsun is "hot headed" and "softhearted" for deredere. But anyway, almost every moe girls are deredere as well... if not, all... Anymore question? Last edited by dgreater1; 2007-10-25 at 13:59. |
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2007-10-25, 14:55 | Link #87 | ||
Lost in my dreams...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 37
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Tsundere isn't a 'personality' per se to begin with, it is a trait. Anyways, you seem to claim that if a person tends to act in a hot headed manner it makes them a tsundere, which i absolutely can't agree with. At any rate, this conversation indeed seems to be less and less related to Kyou and more to what the heck we consider to be tsundere in first place, so perhaps it is indeed worth considering moving that discussion to the tsundere thread in General anime.
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2007-10-25, 17:23 | Link #88 |
Martian diplomat
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It's not about how we consider what is to be tsundere, but we're debating weather Kyou is acting tsun or friendly.
Every single person out there does show manners of dislike to another person they dislike, and vice versa for those they like, but you don't call everybody a 'tsundere' right? When talking about tsun and dere, they have to be acting towards the same person. Kyou has never, ever acted tsun towards Tomoya and dere towards Sunohara (apart from the final choice in her route). Therefore, Kyou is consistent in terms of mood. And thus, Kyou is not a tsundere because she doesn't exhibit the triats of a tsundere where they have a mood swing between 'tsun' and 'dere' towards one single character. On the contary, if we use your theory that Kyou is tsundere because she acts 'tsun' towards Sunohara and 'dere' towards Tomoya, then we can have to be consistent and see that Nagisa is a tsundere because she is always ignoring Sunohara and paying attention to Tomoya, but now you say she is not a tsundere--how can you justify that then? (Note: I do not think Nagisa is a tsundere because she is consistent in her mood.) |
2007-10-25, 17:24 | Link #89 | |
神聖カルル帝国の 皇帝
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Korea
Age: 37
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2007-10-25, 17:37 | Link #90 |
Martian diplomat
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There is no particular need to to merge the routes forcefully, as it is possible that every single get a show in Nagisa's route even in the game. But some classic moments will need a bit of work to fit in the show (like Fuko's final moment)
It's funny seeing that Kyou's thread is the longest threat, despite she is not the no.1 popular amongst the players. (The most popular is Tomoyo, IIRC) Last edited by iamandragon; 2007-10-25 at 20:06. |
2007-10-25, 20:34 | Link #91 | |||||
Misuzu & Kotomi Protector
Join Date: Mar 2007
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And I never claimed anything about being a tsun is being a tsundere. Read above quote. But anyway, if you're talking about this message "You say it's a normal reaction (a normal reaction to you but not to everyone), but that's one of the reason why she became a tsun and at the same time tsundere in the first place, we haven't seen much of her deredere side as of yet except for the Botan scene though." What I mean there is: 1) She's a tsun because she's a hot-headed hard to deal with person. 2) She's a tsundere because despite she's a hot-headed (tsun) hard to deal with person, she is a shy/kind/moonstruck/caring-to-her-sister/what-ever-you-want-to-call-it (dere) person in the inside. Actually, most of that girls that lands only on the tsun side are either enemies or just plain crazy hot-headed (a very simple example is Akira and Asuzagawa Yukino of Yakitate Japan). If you don't want to use that term for Kyou, then you what would Kagami be? She's almost the same as Kyou, a head-headed but really caring person. Kyou is hot-headed the same as Kagami, Kyou is caring and she also gets embarrassed easily, the same as Kagami. Quote:
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mataray = hotheaded/hotblooded = tsuntsun (super easy term for Filipino to understand ) Last edited by dgreater1; 2007-10-26 at 04:00. |
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2007-10-25, 21:04 | Link #92 | |
神聖カルル帝国の 皇帝
Join Date: Jul 2007
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I have to say that I disagree with having terms used so broadly |
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2007-10-25, 22:18 | Link #95 | ||
Misuzu & Kotomi Protector
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2007-10-26, 04:39 | Link #96 | ||||
Martian diplomat
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Would you please stop using characters outside of CLANNAD for reference? For one thing I don't watch as much anime as you otakus, so don't assume I know about the other characters about other series. All I'm here to debate is weather Kyou is a tsundere or not, and I'm standing firm by saying Kyou is never tsun, her hot-headed moments are actually her way of showing love/friendliness
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And therefore, when looking at the tsun and dere moments of Kyou we have to make sure we are looking at the same person. It's like doing a scientific experiment. We keep every factor constant and monitor two changing factor. For Kyou's case, the changing factor is the situation and her mood. |
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2007-10-26, 05:59 | Link #97 | |
Misuzu & Kotomi Protector
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But anyway you did say, "her hot-headed moments are actually her way of showing love/friendliness"... that's what being a tsuntsun person means... being in a hot-headed moments... and the bolded italic one is what you call being a deredere... so it means, you're contradicting yourself... |
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2007-10-26, 06:06 | Link #98 | ||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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And seriously, I don't see any hostility and such, but meh. Quote:
In fact, the aggressivity is a MANNER of speech, which doesn't change the meaning of it. If you are aggressive or calm, the impatc might change, but the message is still the same. That's why iamandragon made an emphasis on "friendliness". Because being aggressive doesn't mean it is an act of coldness or whatever. The way how Kyou expresses herself is indeed wild, but her demeanor is NOT. If someone yells "i love you" or mutters it, it is still the same. Granted, that doesn't change one's feelings, just with the way how it was done. The "purpose" of being wild (so being tsuntsun for whatever reason) is not the same than being it for the hell of it. Acting like this to express themself is then the personality, not a tsundere trait. As explained by Skyfall already, tsundere is a type, a category of character, not a personality as a whole, otherwise, "tsundere" would be generic (which they are already) to the point they are acting all the same, which is obviousl not the case if we take for example, Kugimiya Rie loli tsundere trio (though nagi is still debatable). Right then, you can tell Shana and Louise are diametrally different in their tsundere-ism. That proves tsundere is rather a trait of personality, not the personality as a whole. Thus, having some personality trait doesn't encage you into a stereotype already. that's the point. as result, being hotheaded isn't a synonym of being tsun, because the personality can be different depending on the characters. Or if you prefer, you already said "being tsun doesn't mean the character is tsundere". That's the same principle: being wild doesn't mean it is tsun. That's why i don't see the definition as "narrow", but rather yours (as well as kinny's) are too vague. Why? because that means that any "cold" behaviour, being negative or not, affection or aversion is tsuntsun... therefor, that means that almost every character are tsundere as result. With such vague definition, we can even claim Fuko is tsundere, or Nagisa... (that's like pretending Rena is tsundere because she has mood swing... same goes for Mion and Satoko who are NOT tsundere, because they aren't tsun to begin with...) the definition is neutral (as i already quoted it), but it appears it is just like "moe", and people are just taking it in their view, and not exactly how "set in stone" the definition is already. Quite big debate heh... Again, you are not explaining how you can actually claim Kyou has shown deredere, and "being embarassed by a pantsu shot" is hardly deredere. Same goes what we saw in episode 4.
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2007-10-26 at 06:19. |
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2007-10-26, 06:13 | Link #99 |
I don't give a damn, dude
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Despair
Age: 37
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I personally don't know about Kyou, but I theorize that iamandragon herself IS a tsundere. Of course, so far all we've seen is the tsun-tsun side of her, but maybe there's a dere-dere side to her that we haven't seen yet. (J/K)
Joking aside, it's almost the same case with Kyou. Maybe what we see is the tsun side of her, maybe it's not, but we still can't say whether she is a tsundere for certain until when (of if) she shows a more obvious dere-dere side of her. |
2007-10-26, 06:22 | Link #100 | ||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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However, if her attitude is constant, and she doesn't show a true deredere, that completely proves she is not. As far as we can see, since the debate still goes on... we gotta need a bulletproof detail which will either confirm she is or not
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