Romance in Macross (Take 2)

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Thess

I'd like to think that she was saying that one day she'll be happy in love too with a real relationship.

I think I quite like this interpretation, myself. Given what we did get in the movies, I'm content to have this rationalization working for the TV series' end.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Tak

Nevermind that Sheryl knows Ranka better than Alto does and encouraged her even if Ranka was slowly becoming a rival in either songs or love. Sheryl is constantly seen grooming Ranka, and even offered to accelerate the process. But when Sheryl fell from grace and became an idol of the past, I do not recall Ranka trying to seek her senpai to express her concern regarding her wellbeing. Episode 20 was the accumulation of that, and it angered a lot of fans. Nonetheless, at the verge of death Sheryl even urged Alto to save Ranka. Such favor, I dare say, was never repaid in full.

To this very true statement we'd assuredly soon would get a response in the vein of "But Ranka cured Sheryl in episode 25!"

So, let me forestall that right now and counterask "Yeah, but what did it cost her, compared to the sacrifices Sheryl made for Rankas sake?".

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Tak

Nevermind that Sheryl knows Ranka better than Alto does and encouraged her even if Ranka was slowly becoming a rival in either songs or love. Sheryl is constantly seen grooming Ranka, and even offered to accelerate the process. But when Sheryl fell from grace and became an idol of the past, I do not recall Ranka trying to seek her senpai to express her concern regarding her wellbeing. Episode 20 was the accumulation of that, and it angered a lot of fans. Nonetheless, at the verge of death Sheryl even urged Alto to save Ranka. Such favor, I dare say, was never repaid in full.

And you should know what sacrifices were made to save Ranka in the 2nd movie.

- Tak

I agree with this. I do think Ranka did repay Sheryl by (magically?) curing her. She also realized it was her fault ("it's my fault" wasn't one of her thoughts when she was controlled, I may be misremembering). The brainwashing stuff hurt her growth, IMO, she had made a right call about leaving Frontier to lure the Vajyra, but the execution (and her poor planning) was meh. Kind of like in the movie, when she runs as an Heroic Sacrifice and it was far more effective (and she was also aware they were after her sooner).

Originally Posted by magnuskn

So, let me forestall that right now and counterask "Yeah, but what did it cost her, compared to the sacrifices Sheryl made for Rankas sake?".

Losing any chance she has with Alto?

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I think I quite like this interpretation, myself. Given what we did get in the movies, I'm content to have this rationalization working for the TV series' end.

Woot.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Thess

Losing any chance she has with Alto?

It'd have felt like an actual sacrifice if she'd have ackowledged that in any shape or form, instead of then making a challenge for Alto at the end.

Originally Posted by Thess

Woot.

Bah, Beto is too mellow. Must be that agreeable Brazilian climate ( in some parts of the country ). I prefer to deal with Ranka fans in this way

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

The ending was approved by Kawamori... perhaps he wanted to show her mercy after fucking up her character like that. That's my say. After all, he's the one who approved her choices and fucked her character up to death.

Not exactly End of Series Ranka essentially had the very same personality she started out with, the only difference was the situation she was in was very severe. This may be in fact due to Ranka'sTV character just being unfit for the show in general. She was shown to be irresponsible, she was shown to be a bit spoiled by everyone around her, and she was always shown to be expectant that everyone would just listen to her and let her do whatever she wanted. What happened to Ranka was basically what would happen if you had a character with that personality and upbringing and put them in that situation.

What they did in the movie was alter her appearance slightly (ever notice that movie Ranka looks just a tad bit older than tv series Ranka, and dresses her age too), and do a complete makeover on her personality.

Originally Posted by Thess

Yep, I'm Sir Hellsing.

knew it your arguments seemed very familiar.

This is what I tried to say here. Sometimes I get the feeling that Sheryl/Alto shippers try to justify the pairing as in Ranka didn't do this/did that/doesn't deserve Alto (not everyone, but there are times it feels like this). While Ranka/Alto shippers blame on Sheryl sabotaging their relationship (couldn't be more wrong, it's like the opposite) or throwing herself at Alto who is a poor victim who can't 'resist' her or wrongly assume his attraction is born out pity. Again not all, but some do.

It feels as if Alto's feelings, choices and actions are not taken into account. He did commit mistakes in his relationships, he also had strong moments. The failure of Ranka and Alto to connect lies not just on Ranka (or Sheryl's presence), but of Alto's simple... lack of interest in "that" way, IMO. Likewise, his relationship with Sheryl. It's built together. He is a participant and not a prize for the most "deserving" party.

Which is what I've been saying from the very beginning. What either girl does shouldn't make any difference on why Alto should like either one, what should make a difference is who Alto is actually interested in. This was one of the reason why I ultimately couldn't take the Alto/Ranka ship seriously because Alto's lack of interest, because let's be honest is a guy knows that a girl likes him he wouldn't consider it a bother or pretend not to notice unless he's not interested in her like that.

The characters lampshading the fact that Sheryl and Alto were pretty close didn't help matters, as well as the implications that they spend a lot more time together in the off screen waiting room. Meanwhile it seems as though with Ranka we are seeing every moment she spends with him, and there aren't much. I mean even their "date" had to be orchestrated by Mikhail, as Alto wasn't didn't volunteer to be alone with her. Even the kiss, though Ranka takes it seriously, Alto did not and treated it like it was just another acting gig, after the initial shock wore off. Maybe that's why Mikhail ultimately stopped pushing him to try to notice Ranka, because he couldn't notice her.

Mmhmm. I've said that a few pages ago, too. They are not exactly the same but more in that they are adapted to their characterizations. Because Sheryl is still Sheryl (only it speeds up her character growth), Alto is still Alto (but with more self-awareness and his tacit issues about gender/kabuki are made more explicit) and Ranka is... the Ranka who I think we would have seen in a couple of years (a more believable contender for Alto's affections, a young woman, not a girl who looks and acts younger).

The movie was basically a what if for the tv series, designed to make people realize that Alto would have fallen in love with Sheryl even if She was put into the same situation as Ranka, and Ranka was more mature.

[choji]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I think if someone "deserves" anything is up to the individual viewer to decide. In my opinion, Ranka did not deserve her having this super-happy care-and-responsibility-free ending.

That is true; while, I may disagree with the word 'deserve' when it comes to a lover (he's not a gold saucer prize), when it comes to an ending, I feel it should be a must. It's like what they say, 'crime and punishment'. And sometimes, immaturity and dumbassery can cause crimes. But anyway, that is another discussion.

Like most people noted, most times romance equals chemistry. Physical attraction = Chemical reaction afterall. Go figure. 8D

[Thess]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Not exactly End of Series Ranka essentially had the very same personality she started out with, the only difference was the situation she was in was very severe. This may be in fact due to Ranka'sTV character just being unfit for the show in general. She was shown to be irresponsible, she was shown to be a bit spoiled by everyone around her, and she was always shown to be expectant that everyone would just listen to her and let her do whatever she wanted. What happened to Ranka was basically what would happen if you had a character with that personality and upbringing and put them in that situation.

Hmm, I disagree with this a little. I think Ranka did grow, she used to be much shyer and more worshipful (to Sheryl, specifics). She stopped depending on Alto in episode 21, ish. The problem was that she should have shared her plan with her brother or someone who is competent to help.

As for the behavior of everyone around her? It's not Ranka's problem, that's their issues for shoddy characterization in this aspect (aka blame whoever wrote it).

I think the major issue wasn't that they were listening to her, but that they weren't. They just let her talk, patted her head and sheltered her. She had a message to convey and they didn't listen to her (nor she made herself understood very well).

She could have grown more, I agree, but it's hard to when she became a plot device at this point.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

What they did in the movie was alter her appearance slightly (ever notice that movie Ranka looks just a tad bit older than tv series Ranka, and dresses her age too), and do a complete makeover on her personality.

I always liked Ranka's design but sadly it got too childish and loli-esque at times. Movie wise, she does look sixteen and acts like a Macross heroine.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Which is what I've been saying from the very beginning. What either girl does shouldn't make any difference on why Alto should like either one, what should make a difference is who Alto is actually interested in. This was one of the reason why I ultimately couldn't take the Alto/Ranka ship seriously because Alto's lack of interest, because let's be honest is a guy knows that a girl likes him he wouldn't consider it a bother or pretend not to notice unless he's not interested in her like that.

Basically, yes. There are a few instances Alto does show attraction to Ranka, it IS a love triangle, but his interest is stronger with Sheryl. My favorite pairing is Sheryl/Ranka, but Alto/Sheryl was endgame in canon since the beginning, IMO.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

The characters lampshading the fact that Sheryl and Alto were pretty close didn't help matters, as well as the implications that they spend a lot more time together in the off screen waiting room. Meanwhile it seems as though with Ranka we are seeing every moment she spends with him, and there aren't much. I mean even their "date" had to be orchestrated by Mikhail, as Alto wasn't didn't volunteer to be alone with her. Even the kiss, though Ranka takes it seriously, Alto did not and treated it like it was just another acting gig, after the initial shock wore off. Maybe that's why Mikhail ultimately stopped pushing him to try to notice Ranka, because he couldn't notice her.

It's amusing sometimes how Ranka shippers bash Sheryl when she was the reason why a lot of their scenes happened- Likewise, those who ship Sheryl with Alto, should put the blame on him (not Ranka) for not spelling it out sooner. Ranka's presence is not the issue...

Originally Posted by wisteria233

The movie was basically a what if for the tv series, designed to make people realize that Alto would have fallen in love with Sheryl even if She was put into the same situation as Ranka, and Ranka was more mature.

Yeap. I think I also said something alike a few posts back in spoilers and in that livejournal post (not to you, to someone else). There's nothing wrong with Ranka (well, TV series wise she's a taking tentative steps out of being a child, but movie wise she's a dear). She's just not the one who makes Alto's heart go "dokun dokun dokun." I have no doubt she'll find happiness in the future, with someone who does appreciate her for who she is and have a successful music career.

Speaking of the movies Rewatching the SNT trailer, I noticed Kawamori is co-screenplay writer like in the first movie. That should put at rest any possibly rumor only Yoshino wanted or wrote this ending.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

I agreeit becomes like the relationship with Hikaru/Minmei. He suddenly realizes that his feelings for Ranka are not returned (he's dense, remember) and turns to Sheryl, just as Hikaru did Misa. But he does show an interest in her, even on Galia 4. His eyes were glowing just as much as hers were and he is quite embarrassed to be hugging her. Their connection in that episode, it is shown that there is still an attraction to Ranka. After Ep14, this moves towards Sheryl. After all, Ranka becomes part of something more important (being a Songtress of Hope) and doesn't have time for him. Plus, she has Brera there. His possible hopes to be more to her dies and he sees it was a dream. This is how Hikaru and Alto blended together. I like how Kawamori puts tons of references to SDF in this series.

Actually its not because Alto's feelings toward Ranka were not returned, its because Alto's feelings toward Ranka were different than what Ranka had interpreted. Throughout the series, Ranka read Alto's feelings in ways that she saw fit, even if Alto's intentions were anything but. Alto did not turn to Sheryl because his feelings for Ranka were not returned, its because his feelings for the two women were different to begin with. It also didn't help with Ranka commenting on Alto's feminine beauty when the opportunity arises, seeing how Alto absolutely hates it. This trend became a growing dilemma for Ranka and will eventually reach an epitome by episode 20.

Sure, in the beginning we see Ranka and Alto sharing screentime together, with Mikhail doing a bit of nudging here and there (even if Alto was acting coldfish most of the time), because Ranka was closest to him at the time. Moreover, nobody, even Alto himself thought a relationship with a big idol star like Sheryl was possible.

Little did Alto and Sheryl knew that it'd be a vastly different ballgame for them much later.

Furthermore, Banana has little to do with actually interfering triangle considering his presence was solidified much later in the show. Prior to that, Ranka had plenty of chances, I suppose, but Alto's mind just was not on her, or at least in ways that Ranka would have liked.

- Tak

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Thess

Hmm, I disagree with this a little. I think Ranka did grow, she used to be much shyer and more worshipful (to Sheryl, specifics). She stopped depending on Alto in episode 21, ish. The problem was that she should have shared her plan with her brother or someone who is competent to help.

As for the behavior of everyone around her? It's not Ranka's problem, that's their issues for shoddy characterization in this aspect (aka blame whoever wrote it).

I think the major issue wasn't that they were listening to her, but that they weren't. They just let her talk, patted her head and sheltered her. She had a message to convey and they didn't listen to her (nor she made herself understood very well).

She could have grown more, I agree, but it's hard to when she became a plot device at this point.

Now I can't exactly fault the other characters for treating Ranka like a little kid simply because that's the way Ranka carried herself. She behaved like a child and was treated like one, because how can someone take a person seriously when they don't even carry themselves off as someone that should be their peer. If Ranka really wanted to be taken seriously then she should have acted her age, and be more mature. It kinda made me feel like so what if she got over her shyness you still act like she's 12.

I always liked Ranka's design but sadly it got too childish and loli-esque at times. Movie wise, she does look sixteen and acts like a Macross heroine.

Thing is their choice of her costumes didn't help matters, meanwhile movie Ranka actually wears some really cute clothing and yet still comes across as sixteen. I'm serious tv series Ranka no matter how hard they tried couldn't pull off any other look besides cute and moe, and any attempt to try to make her sexy just made you feel like a lolicon for even looking at it.

Basically, yes. There are a few instances Alto does show attraction to Ranka, it IS a love triangle, but his interest is stronger with Sheryl. My favorite pairing is Sheryl/Ranka, but Alto/Sheryl was endgame in canon since the beginning, IMO.

I always just took those instances of Alto noticing that Ranka was cute, which is not uncommon for guys, but outside of that... *shakes head*.

It's amusing sometimes how Ranka shippers bash Sheryl when she was the reason why a lot of their scenes happened- Likewise, those who ship Sheryl with Alto, should put the blame on him (not Ranka) for not spelling it out sooner. Ranka's presence is not the issue...

Exactly. Not only did Ranka not make an effort to be around Alto, Alto also didn't make an effort to be around Ranka. At times in the tv series it seemed as though Alto just wasn't interested in Ranka and didn't know how to break it to her nicely.

Yeap. I think I also said something alike a few posts back in spoilers and in that livejournal post (not to you, to someone else). There's nothing wrong with Ranka (well, TV series wise she's a taking tentative steps out of being a child, but movie wise she's a dear). She's just not the one who makes Alto's heart go "dokun dokun dokun." I have no doubt she'll find happiness in the future, with someone who does appreciate her for who she is and have a successful music career.

I think that before Ranka tries to enter into actual relationship she should take some time to grow up a little first, and then look for a guy that not only will take her seriously but also isn't afraid to tell her exactly what he's thinking.

Speaking of the movies Rewatching the SNT trailer, I noticed Kawamori is co-screenplay writer like in the first movie. That should put at rest any possibly rumor only Yoshino wanted or wrote this ending.

Then again the whole reason why the love triangle wasn't resolved int he tv series was because of Yoshino so the change is a good thing.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Someone said that Ranka looked upset that Alto was happy. This is not true. She is happy for both her friends and the people of the Frontier. Her emotions in the end are that she would not only like to beat Sheryl in singing but in love period. Whether or not this is directed at trying to reconstruct her relationship with Alto or not, that is up to the viewer to decide.

Actually, that is true in episode 20. The moment she saw Sheryl and Alto hugging together, her heart shattered to pieces.

Although her stance would eventually change by the end, it does not change the fact that she was upset at one point (which, led to many deaths) because of a situation that she had interpreted, once again, based on limited information.

- Tak

[Thess]

I'll answer the rest tomorrow. So late...

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Now I can't exactly fault the other characters for treating Ranka like a little kid simply because that's the way Ranka carried herself. She behaved like a child and was treated like one, because how can someone take a person seriously when they don't even carry themselves off as someone that should be their peer. If Ranka really wanted to be taken seriously then she should have acted her age, and be more mature. It kinda made me feel like so what if she got over her shyness you still act like she's 12.

This is true, but they could have slapped her on the face with some tough love and tell her to grow up (besides Sheryl). They didn't. These are mistakes that are linked together. They didn't even need to smack her. They could have used some sense like Misa did to Minmay in the last episode of Macross. Minmay was young, immature but did bloom into a beautiful woman (she wasn't a bad person, but had a realistic coming of age).

I kind of wanted this for Ranka.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Thing is their choice of her costumes didn't help matters, meanwhile movie Ranka actually wears some really cute clothing and yet still comes across as sixteen. I'm serious tv series Ranka no matter how hard they tried couldn't pull off any other look besides cute and moe, and any attempt to try to make her sexy just made you feel like a lolicon for even looking at it.

I... agree. I liked the few times she looked pretty grow up, but they went for the defenseless kid so much... They could do moe and badass (episode 12!).

Originally Posted by wisteria233

I always just took those instances of Alto noticing that Ranka was cute, which is not uncommon for guys, but outside of that... *shakes head*.

His reaction to their future kiss scene does show some flustering attraction to the idea. I think he WAS infatuated with her, but attraction can lasts so long when there isn't anything meaningful to motivate a serious relationship (like when you see someone attractive on the street and makes you whistle).

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Exactly. Not only did Ranka not make an effort to be around Alto, Alto also didn't make an effort to be around Ranka. At times in the tv series it seemed as though Alto just wasn't interested in Ranka and didn't know how to break it to her nicely.

Kimagure Orange Road, anyone? Does anyone remember this infamous "love" triangle? Between a guy and a headstrong, tsundere ojou and genki, little sister-ly who looks up the ojou?

Originally Posted by wisteria233

I think that before Ranka tries to enter into actual relationship she should take some time to grow up a little first, and then look for a guy that not only will take her seriously but also isn't afraid to tell her exactly what he's thinking.

It depends which Ranka version... I don't think movie Ranka has ANY issues with maturity. She can have boyfriends (or girlfriends), geez.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Then again the whole reason why the love triangle wasn't resolved int he tv series was because of Yoshino so the change is a good thing.

To be fair with Yoshino, he never made it secret who he thought Alto loved. But most people dismissed his claims since he wasn't Kawamori... nevermind he wrote that and was involved too.

Also, that poker card thing they released was spelling it out. I still need to find the pictures (if anyone knows where they are, please link?). King Alto, Queen Sheryl, Joker Ranka, Jack Michel.

[solothurn]

Originally Posted by Thess

Kimagure Orange Road, anyone? Does anyone remember this infamous "love" triangle? Between a guy and a headstrong, tsundere ojou and genki, little sister-ly who looks up the ojou?

Alto = Kyosuke, Sheryl = Madoka, Ranka = Hikaru. Can't unsee.

Too bad Alto doesn't have two sisters and Sheryl doesn't have a crazy tomboy lesbian stalker.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Thess

I think the major issue wasn't that they were listening to her, but that they weren't. They just let her talk, patted her head and sheltered her. She had a message to convey and they didn't listen to her (nor she made herself understood very well).

I blame this squarely on Ranka. If you got something important you want to communicate, do it. Ranka kept tons of vital information to herself and I did not see her trying to pass it on to anybody of importance.

The Ai-kun disaster, however, also falls squarely on Alto and Nanase.

Originally Posted by Thess

It's amusing sometimes how Ranka shippers bash Sheryl when she was the reason why a lot of their scenes happened- Likewise, those who ship Sheryl with Alto, should put the blame on him (not Ranka) for not spelling it out sooner. Ranka's presence is not the issue...

I haven't personally seen any SxA people blaming Ranka for Alto not confessing sooner...

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

However, now that Alto has seen inside Ranka's soul and understands her own loneliness became much like Sheryl's, it is possible that in the series, Ranka probably could've started over from the start and Sheryl and her could have a proper fight for his heart. After all, there was a huge gap the entire time.

Not likely. Sheryl and Alto have been living together for... weeks? Months? I can't see Ranka trying to break them up maliciously ( which is what she'd have to do get between them ).

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

He draws a heart in the sky for her

Actually that was part of the show, and not meant as a personal message from him to her. Too bad nobody told her that. Well, that happens if you go gallivanting through the city while people hold a parade in your honor.

[moncikoma]

just wondering...anyone know how long sheryl and alto know eachother?

25 episodes looks like 3-6 months to me..dunno about the movie...

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Hm, if I remember correctly (I watch Ep25 a lot), there is a clock shown the night Alto and Sheryl are first shown living together and then one when Alto gets ready in his plan to fight. I remember seeing one that said a time and date both times. If I am correct, it was around two weeks.

Well, it'd be nice if you could find out where those two incidences of exact timing are, so that the rest of us could see them, too.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Well, I view the final episode as canon. Mostly because of the WTF moment where Ranka uses a Jesus move to restore Sheryl magically. But also because of Alto reaching into Ranka's soul. It was like watching some sort of angel/demon movie the way that all happened. So whether or not his ability to reach into Ranka's heart was because of Sheryl's earring or his desire to understand the situation, I think the whole episode is questionable. After all, by all rights, Alto should've died in Ep24.

I think Alto surviving from ep 24 to 25 is the least mind-boggling stuff of episode 25. It was pretty clearly a combination maneuver with Klan, where they already had pre-planned what to do in case Brera showed up. I think no-one was under the delusion that Alto stood a real chance to win against him.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Kawamori is the one who left the ending open. It's like an adventure for us fans, which is what we love to do: imagine. But this also leads to wars between our ships. AxS fans interpret Ranka differently than AxR fans, and visa versa for Sheryl. AxS fans see Ranka as either a rival in love or a loli who didn't belong in the series at all, who just gets in the way. AxR fans see Sheryl as a stuck up bitch who's lonely and selfish, didn't deserve Alto at all. When our ships collide, we bring money to the Macross franchise. However, viewing the two characters differently leads to "false" evidence that each character did "this or that" to earn Alto's heart. While looking at what you say is chemistry, you forget to interpret Alto first.

Oh, I think that Alto as a participant in the love triangle is actually taken more into account from the Sheryl-shippers than the Ranka-shippers. ^^

Spoiler for The rest of my comments has spoilers for the movie, sadly...:

I think a chance for AruRan in the series is possible. After all, he saw her soul bared before his very eyes and understood her loneliness, pain, and true reasons for leaving the Frontier. He understands her selfless sacrifice to solve the war. This is why he asks her to sing her true song, or the one that lives in her heart to express her love for humanity and life itself (Anata no Oto). Because of this one moment, they reach an understanding of the others feelings throughout the entire series and Alto sees Ranka on a more intimate level, hence his relieved and happy smile. He also sees how much she's grown, making him understand when Ozma said she'd chosen her own path. Even though she is still the "damsel in distress" for a bit of the episode, his feelings for her have grown from that one moment. And Ranka expresses her strength and love for the Frontier, Vajra, and Alto (in that order) by singing with Sheryl, communicating with the Vajra to end the war. Not to mention saving Sheryl's life in the process (which, once again, is damn well weird!)

The whole scene where Alto asks her to sing her true song in that episode actually is a fall in his character. Which is why I view the episode as canon. His dense character falls apart as soon as he sees Ranka's soul. His emotions seem more geared towards Ranka in this episode after that.

After all, he understands everything that happened from the beginning of Ep20 to the middle of battle in Ep25 right as he sees her soul. In this way, he ends up reinstating his promise to Sheryl by leaving her behind to go rescue Ranka even though she is dying. His first promise was to be by her side till the end, yet he watches her die and merely yells for her assistance (also out of worry), and moves towards rescuing Ranka even though Sheryl is dying. His character in Ep25 was torn between the sudden connection and intimate relationship he held with Ranka (and both girls in the end) and the promises he made in the previous episodes (all the way back to Ep1); and finally with the war going on. By this way, they destroyed Alto's character and made him the Tsudere of the whole triangle in Ep25.

If Alto/Sheryl had been the ending of the series, I don't think you would've liked it. Noting what I just pointed out above, his character had altered badly in that one episode. I doubt he would've been changed back, because that would be like ungrowing a character. His reactions to Sheryl would've changed completely, as he saw both of them in a new light and his intimate feelings for Ranka had grown to finally become an "obvious romance." It would've been impossible with the weird way the episode ended for Alto/Sheryl to win out the triangle. As he acts like his entire time with Sheryl while Ranka was gone never existed.

I could see, in the series, an Alto/Ranka ending. The hints were there to see from Ep23 onward.

Before you rant at me for being wrong: all fansubbers of Macross Frontier had different translations for various same lines. I'm familiar with both Thora and AnimeCentral. I shall go with AC for this one and relate it to Thora.

In Ep23, Alto says he joined the S.M.S. to protect Ranka, and then he moved to protect the Frontier. This puts Ranka at the top of his worry list, until she promptly became Brera's responsibility, throwing him towards Sheryl. He says he will kill Ranka if she is perceived to be the enemy. But, as it appears in Ep24, he tries to break through to her regardless of Sheryl's words "save her" from earlier that episode. He tries to understand her. This is the first time he's tried to solely understand her feelings since Ep3's Griffith Park scene.

It is not Sheryl who inspires him but rather Klan, whom asks him "do you love her?" This line is also translated by Thora as "is that your love?" Both oddly have the same context of asking "is this how you express your love?" He says nothing but Sheryl easily bends the answer out for you by the lines "I knew it all along. But just for a little longer." Her sentence states that she believes Alto loves Ranka. Sheryl's plane falling in Ep23 was a statement that her heart was weary, yes; but it was also written on her face the same heartbreak we see in Ep20 with Ranka. She views the whole line of "if Ranka brings an end to the Frontier, if her songs doom us all, I would kill Ranka" as his expression of love for Ranka by freeing her from being the "tool" she stated she was. The line "I may have pretended not to notice things" becomes an apparent spoiler for the fact he wasn't that dense to realize Ranka had pains. He must've noticed it when she said goodbye to him back in Ep21, which is why his face is so confused and pained at the end of that episode.

Then we have the "pour your heart out" scene that everyone talks about. We first see Sheryl staring into the mirror, seemingly worried but also looks about the same as Ranka did when Nanase calls her in Ep11 about Alto being close to Sheryl. Equally enough, this conversation could be viewed in more than one way: Alto really does love Sheryl, Alto is rejecting Sheryl but she doesn't want to hear, or he is silently saying he might die on the battlefield (which this one is more likely, since we are talking about war). But his reaction to Sheryl's kiss is not there. Unlike Ep10, where he at least shows some sort of reaction (eyes widen), he makes no movement and looks as though he's lost/not in the moment. And when Sheryl breaks away, he looks rather guilty, as if he's done something wrong. When he tries to speak, she tells him not to speak or she won't be able to sing (much like Ranka in movie 2). Instead of hugging Sheryl like he does Ranka in the movie, he stands there as she tells him to rescue said girl. Either way, both scenes were written and a final product of Kawamori's vision, and the scenes mirror each other. Which means we are kinda right to assume that clearly Sheryl knows Alto has rejected her.

Go ahead, say this is wrong, but look at the fact that Ranka is not a brave girl. She would never just up and kiss Alto like Sheryl did in Ep24. So Alto takes Sheryl's place and hugs her, then rejects her outwardly. That is the only difference in both scenes: he outwardly rejects Ranka verbally instead of like Sheryl in the series, saying nothing at all.

In the end, Kawamori seemed geared towards Alto/Ranka in the series with the way he'd changed Alto's character quite a bit and made Ranka out to be the heroine who saves Sheryl out of nowhere with a Jesus move. When looking at the end of Ep25 and then the end of the 2nd movie, comparing how the construction was rewritten, you can see that the series was geared for Alto/Ranka to win and the movie towards Alto/Sheryl. If you break down how the characters reacted in the final moments before the battle began from both series and movie, then you will see how the scenes are similar and how the couples were geared in the end.

So, in the end of the series, you have Alto/Ranka. The movie, you have Alto/Sheryl. It's amazing how Kawamori can take an entire episode and rewrite it to go in the opposite direction, huh?

That's the biggest wall of delusional Ranka shipper fanwank fail I've read in a looooong while. I'd address it point by point, but

a.) I am still feeling pretty sucky due to my cold.
b.) I actually need to get stuff for college done A.S.A.P. and I can't really waste one hour of my time ( point a.) and b.) don't really work well together, either, btw. >.< )
c.) Even if I'd refute this, you'd still spin like a top and throw out even more fanwank, in a never-ending cycle.

Anybody else wanna take this? Tak? Swampy? Cheesy? Westlo? Irisiel? Wisteria? Karice? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Well, you have to see it from Ranka's point of view. She hasn't seen Alto for a while and is unaware of why they are performing like that in the sky in the first place. I'm supposing she was more worried about hair and makeup that morning, then trying to find Alto before the concert starts. Then she sees him shoot through a heart with her name underneath, and she reads a strange message from it. After all, can you blame her? It didn't have to be Alto! And also, she probably didn't really know he was on the stunt team still, as you say, they didn't communicate much after Ep15.

Yep, but it was Michael who drew the heart. Does that mean that Michael secretly loved Ranka all along, OMG!

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Why should the idea of Ranka winning in the series make you mad?

Because it is utter bullshit and entirely delusional.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Don't see why... you guys still won the movie... and the triangle was never stated won in the series. Honestly, we each won in some way, because we can always imagine him with either girl. We have the power of imagination. So, whether right or wrong, we can always match him with one girl or the other via imagination.

You can always believe whatever you want, but the facts are against you and your side.

[mariesz]

Uh ?.... Sorry ...but i don't get it.
Ranka never won in the series !!
It never happened...have we seen the same series ?!

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Thess

This is true, but they could have slapped her on the face with some tough love and tell her to grow up (besides Sheryl). They didn't. These are mistakes that are linked together. They didn't even need to smack her. They could have used some sense like Misa did to Minmay in the last episode of Macross. Minmay was young, immature but did bloom into a beautiful woman (she wasn't a bad person, but had a realistic coming of age).

I kind of wanted this for Ranka.

I think that we all did, and that may ultimately one of the reasons why so many of us ship Sheryl with Ranka because she did take Ranka seriously and push Ranka to do things on her own without relying on someone else, and step out of her comfort zone.

I... agree. I liked the few times she looked pretty grow up, but they went for the defenseless kid so much... They could do moe and badass (episode 12!).

It seemed that at the very beginning of the series she would often see-saw back and forth between two looks before finally settling on loli-moe, and not even the badass kind either.

His reaction to their future kiss scene does show some flustering attraction to the idea. I think he WAS infatuated with her, but attraction can lasts so long when there isn't anything meaningful to motivate a serious relationship (like when you see someone attractive on the street and makes you whistle).

Actually like I said before that was more surprise than anything else, once the initial shock of it wore off, he treated the situation with apathy. Considering what "infatuation" means in that context, I don't think that Alto had any kind of "passion" for Ranka. He just thought that she was cute, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that he was infatuated with her, considering that he avoided her.

Kimagure Orange Road, anyone? Does anyone remember this infamous "love" triangle? Between a guy and a headstrong, tsundere ojou and genki, little sister-ly who looks up the ojou?

I keep hearing good things about this series but I never got a chance to watch it.

It depends which Ranka version... I don't think movie Ranka has ANY issues with maturity. She can have boyfriends (or girlfriends), geez.

I was talking about tv series Ranka. Movie Ranka doesn't have the same problems.


[quote]To be fair with Yoshino, he never made it secret who he thought Alto loved. But most people dismissed his claims since he wasn't Kawamori... nevermind he wrote that and was involved too.

Yeah. Shipping wars are funny that way.

Also, that poker card thing they released was spelling it out. I still need to find the pictures (if anyone knows where they are, please link?). King Alto, Queen Sheryl, Joker Ranka, Jack Michel.

Oh there were more signs than just that card set. There is the northern cross spread of Alto and Sheryl sleeping together then there's that Macross articles which only defines Sheryl's relationship with Alto, but not Ranka, even though they did the same for Nanase and Klan Klan. Then there are the various other promotional materials which had a penchant for showing Alto with Sheryl.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Oh, go back and read what I put before in the last few posts. You're way behind on the discussion.

I think they are saying that based on what they had seen in the episodes and face it the tv series love triangle was heavily one-sided.

[SethEng]

I'm surprised that Kags didn't reference the whole salute scene in that wall of text. Anyways, none of that really matters in light of my firm and non-cracky belief that TV!Sheryl offered Alto something that trumps anything TV!Ranka ever did. Herself. That's right, you think that Fade to Black and living together thing was about cuddling and holding hands? The whole sleeping with each other and then doing the awkward dance around that and the nature of the relationship isn't something that's unheard of, especially in anime/manga.