Madoka Magica - General Discussion

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty

Due to the genre, I guess. I guess the story's reason for this would be that girls have a lot more emotions than boys at that age, and are therefore much more effective to use.
Another possibility is that just like some girls are unable to contract (Hitomi), all boys are.

Assuming that boy can do contract wit Kyubey, do you think that they can do better in fighting witch than magical girls do?

[Marcus H.]

Magical boys in Madoka Magica?

One can only wish.



I wonder what happens if Madoka wished that their responsibility is completely transferred to boys.

[blakstealth]

I think it's more of the "emotion" that girls generally give when compared to boys. Or maybe it's just cos of the genre itself of "Magical girls."

[Cytrus]

Any reactions to Urobuchi's recent interview?

http://yaranakya.wordpress.com/2011/...oes-terrorist/

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Cytrus

Any reactions to Urobuchi's recent interview?

http://yaranakya.wordpress.com/2011/...oes-terrorist/

While I can understand what he meant by using these analogies, I find it a very poor usage and a gross simplification of these examples.

He's basically saying ''every coin has two sides'' and that ''nothing is truly good or evil'' but the examples he uses don't really relate much to the actual show. Whether the US had used, throughout it's history, it's power to ''force it's negatives on Third World countries'' (I don't think this is entirely true, at least not to the extent he presented it) or that terrorists are trying to get the world ''on the right path'' (which isn't entirely true, if he had taken the time to learn about how the group was formed in the first place) or the feeling of panic in the late 20th century about the end of days ... none of these apply to the plot or core themes in Madoka Magika outside of really shallow comparisons.

Spoiler for Ep 12:

''Good intentions, kindness, and hope will not necessarily make people happy.'' Well sure, but it was Madoka's good intentions, kindness, and hope that made her take the step necessary to make sure the rest of the magical girls didn't end up having their sacrifices be in vain. And maybe Madoka did make the decision to set things on the ''right path'' in her own eyes, but she didn't do it by killing anyone or wishing death and destruction on other people. Rather she gave up her life in order to make sure no one would suffer any longer.

The feeling of entrapment at the end of the past century might be the same as Homura's attempts to save Madoka, but beyond that? Homura made the choice to be trapped, and go forward with single minded determination to save her friend. How then do the two points relate at all outside a surface level?

etc.

I don't know, but something about this seems more like an attention grab. Urobuchi certainly didn't seem to think any of his examples through. That or he's mixing up his political views with the show a la Miyazaki.

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by noobita

This had bothered me quite sometime.

Why there is no magical boy in this series? Is the boys so useless to the point that they cannot become a witch or generate energy for Kyubey race?

Even if they could it would take the same effort for Kyubey to contract, but yield less energy from emotions, thus it would be less rewards towards their goal, so naturally logically they'd only target the highest yield per effort[hence his trying to get Madoka for so long ].

Originally Posted by noobita

Assuming that boy can do contract wit Kyubey, do you think that they can do better in fighting witch than magical girls do?

Since powers are seemingly based on a person's nature skill, karmic burden, emotions, grief seeds, and learned skills with magic; I'd it would likely highly vary person to person who was stronger rather than in general .

[Riga92]

Originally Posted by Cytrus

Any reactions to Urobuchi's recent interview?

http://yaranakya.wordpress.com/2011/...oes-terrorist/

While I see the point he's trying to make, the analogy he used was terrible. Whether he's doing it for attention grabbing or not, its kinda leaving some negative reactions. /a/ ridiculed the interview and is using it as trollbait among other things.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by noobita

This had bothered me quite sometime.

Why there is no magical boy in this series? Is the boys so useless to the point that they cannot become a witch or generate energy for Kyubey race?

Because it's the Magical GIRL genre, and Madoka Magica is a deconstruction of that.


@Interview: Just validating my viewpoint that Gen really, REALLY doesn't know as much about the real world as he seems to think.

[Guernsey]

Maybe the terrorist analogy was inaccurate but if I had said something similar to, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." or "you can messenger of life to one person but a bringer of death to another" or something along those lines.

[Arkanis]

People sometimes say not that well thought out things, no need to interpret much into it. I just pretend this comparison did never happen. I still like you, Gen

[Kazu-kun]

Personally, I never liked Gen that much so this doesn't change anything for me.

[Sol Falling]

The examples/metaphors Gen brought up were certainly expressed rather poorly. I think, not so much because Gen's views on them don't have validity, but because each of them are such charged topics with controversial views in themselves that it comes across as somewhat flippant or arrogant of Gen to speak primarily of only his own interpretations of them.

On Gen himself, I think the reason the interview came out that way would have been because he tried/wanted to say too much, and brought too much into the conversation, rather than staying focused on the topic at hand and having a conversation suitable for the length of the article. An ironic example, perhaps, of Gen holding "excessive hope" himself :P (see below).

Originally Posted by Arabesque

''Good intentions, kindness, and hope will not necessarily make people happy.'' Well sure, but it was Madoka's good intentions, kindness, and hope that made her take the step necessary to make sure the rest of the magical girls didn't end up having their sacrifices be in vain. And maybe Madoka did make the decision to set things on the ''right path'' in her own eyes, but she didn't do it by killing anyone or wishing death and destruction on other people. Rather she gave up her life in order to make sure no one would suffer any longer.

Actually, that isn't it. What Gen is saying Madoka did is that Madoka accepted that some loss or misfortune must be accepted from the outset. Certainly, Madoka felt good intentions, kindness, and hope, just like all the other magical girls. However, the point that Gen says primarily distinguished Madoka from the others is that she was willing to accept reality and not hope or wish for too much (i.e. something "beyond the bounds of logic").

The feeling of entrapment at the end of the past century might be the same as Homura's attempts to save Madoka, but beyond that? Homura made the choice to be trapped, and go forward with single minded determination to save her friend. How then do the two points relate at all outside a surface level?

The point here is also that the thing which entrapped Homura was not actually the world/reality, but rather her excessive hopes. Her determination to save Madoka, which she saw as the highest pinnacle of good/kindness. In fact, I think there is some merit in comparing Homura's endless or pointless struggle for the sake of some unrealisable ideal or reality to the endeavours of Al-Queda.

(On the metaphor in the article itself: the point was that even though the world survived the Y2K scare, that was nowhere near the end of its troubles. Just like Homura, we are still entrapped by our excessive hopes.)

He's basically saying ''every coin has two sides'' and that ''nothing is truly good or evil'' but the examples he uses don't really relate much to the actual show. Whether the US had used, throughout it's history, it's power to ''force it's negatives on Third World countries'' (I don't think this is entirely true, at least not to the extent he presented it) or that terrorists are trying to get the world ''on the right path'' (which isn't entirely true, if he had taken the time to learn about how the group was formed in the first place) or the feeling of panic in the late 20th century about the end of days ... none of these apply to the plot or core themes in Madoka Magika outside of really shallow comparisons.

Gen is not really talking about good or evil in this article. He is instead talking about how "receiving something good" for one person usually means "receiving something bad" for another. Inherently, Gen is trying to say, whenever something good happens to you--someone (or something) else in the world suffers because of that.

So, the United States was for a time (and is still trying to be) extremely prosperous. The people of America thought that was good, but the truth is that that prosperity came with a world of hidden costs which we are only starting to see right now. So too, the people of Al Queda must've been happy as heck when they managed to take down the Twin Towers. Unfortunately for them, as time passes forward the costs of that moment of happiness will be made more and more apparent to them. In the first example, the hidden costs might have been somewhat abstract things like global resources or economies; in the second, the hidden costs might have been directly applied to the families of the victims. However, in either case, by extracting a single moment of "progress" or happiness, the party which benefited unknowingly set in motion negative costs which would assault them in the future.

For every moment you are happy, some hidden cost emerges somewhere in the world. As time passes onwards, the accumulation of those hidden negatives will slowly make their way around to you. That was the message Gen is trying to express by those examples, with only a very brief overture towards the idea that humans must therefore restrain their desires and hope only for happiness which is "within the bounds of logic" aka in line with reality (which is, incidentally, more or less the core of Buddhism).

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

For every moment you are happy, some hidden cost emerges somewhere in the world. As time passes onwards, the accumulation of those hidden negatives will slowly make their way around to you. That was the message Gen is trying to express by those examples, with only a very brief overture towards the idea that humans must therefore restrain their desires and hope only for happiness which is "within the bounds of logic" aka in line with reality (which is, incidentally, more or less the core of Buddhism).

I find interesting that Urobuchi portraits Madoka as non-human and basically god-like after accepting whatever she got out of her wish instead of struggling against it. It's as if Gen wanted to make a point that the ability to restrain your hope "withing the bounds of logic" is a quality human don't naturally poses. I can't help to think of it as a sort of pessimistic view on humanity. Then again, it's already known that Urobuchi's world view is decidedly pessimistic so this isn't really surprising.

Good interpretation of the interview btw.

[AuraTwilight]

To be fair, Madoka literally did become godlike upon accepting her wish, and it did make her perspective a non-human one.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I find interesting that Urobuchi portraits Madoka as non-human and basically god-like after accepting whatever she got out of her wish instead of struggling against it. It's as if Gen wanted to make a point that the ability to restrain your hope "withing the bounds of logic" is a quality human don't naturally poses. I can't help to think of it as a sort of pessimistic view on humanity. Then again, it's already known that Urobuchi's world view is decidedly pessimistic so this isn't really surprising.

Good interpretation of the interview btw.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

To be fair, Madoka literally did become godlike upon accepting her wish, and it did make her perspective a non-human one.

Actually, we can even look at it this way: I didn't even realize or think about it until just now but in the end, isn't Madoka's wish one that was completely and genuinely selfless? Unlike Sayaka, Madoka successfully devoted her entire existence to the act of easing the suffering of others. Isn't it ironic (or rather perhaps, extremely significant lol) that this sort of ambition was exactly the type of thing which Mami warned her about based on Kyouko's experience.

Perhaps, we shouldn't say here that Madoka "accepted the negative consequences" so much as she gave up entirely on making herself happy. Because she knew that it was impossible for her own personal happiness to last, she instead decided to devote herself to and find joy in being of help to others. This is quite an extreme example of "restraining your desires". On the other hand, it is still true that Madoka carefully made a wish which was not-excessive enough to be in line with reality, thanks to things such as the warning which Mami gave her and the example of Sayaka. So indeed that part still holds true.

Actually, thinking of it in those terms,
Mami: taught Madoka the gravity of real life/being a Puella Magi;
Sayaka: showed Madoka the dangers of reckless altruism;
Kyouko: reaffirmed Madoka's belief in hope and caring for others;
and Homura: let Madoka understand the Puella Magis' pain, struggle, and suffering.

These were the foundations of Madoka's wish. She did not recklessly hope for too much. She realized that for someone to be happy, someone else needed to suffer. She realized that her own happiness would never last. She realized how much Puella Magi around the world had suffered.

So she made a self-sacrifice which resulted in a miracle.

(Humans like ourselves could not hope for anything of such scale. But our self-sacrifices can still create miracles. If there is anything we can take from Madoka's example, it is to have the heart and self-awareness to know when you can create a miracle for someone else. Don't jump out and do it recklessly or self-righteously. But it is never wrong if you still try.)

(On a grander level, if you are prepared to sacrifice and are willing to keep your desires within the bounds of reality, then it isn't wrong to hope. This is for normal humans.)

[Scarletknive]

Originally Posted by Riga92

While I see the point he's trying to make, the analogy he used was terrible. Whether he's doing it for attention grabbing or not, its kinda leaving some negative reactions. /a/ ridiculed the interview and is using it as trollbait among other things.

I gonna need some Social Studies skills on this...
Lets see...Both the anime and real world happenings have something in common...from good to bad...Sayaka is one good example. And the history of him in real life also do well for the people in his country. Yet was rejected by the government, which cause him angry and started doing terrorist attacks, which is bad to others. Great i really need some good source so i can use the skills easily...

Sorry if i make bad comparisons...dont kill me.
...i need my textbook.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

These were the foundations of Madoka's wish. She did not recklessly hope for too much. She realized that for someone to be happy, someone else needed to suffer. She realized that her own happiness would never last. She realized how much Puella Magi around the world had suffered.

So she made a self-sacrifice which resulted in a miracle.

A miracle that didn't need a wish to fulfill. The entire problem would have been prevented had Incubators worked with humans instead of manipulating little girls. The Incubators admittedly have no sense of right or wrong, just pure utilitarianism, but we as humans do. The Incubators were around since man began, so could they not see that humans are capable of changing and reinventing what doesn't work to unsure their survival? The adaptability of humans is incredible, and seven billion of us speak directly to that fact. Life at this turn of the century may seem rough, but it's a transition, not a finality. We're ending a chapter and starting a new one.

Anyway, the second system is far more humane and almost as good as the original. In fact it benefits from something the original system does not - longevity. We saw in the first system that it would get worse and worse until the world was destroyed. That is impossible in this new system unless Magical Girls stop being created for some reason, and even then, humans are capable of adapting to handle it. The second system, while not as efficient in the short term, provides greater returns in the long term. Kyubey benefits better from this system and "happiness" is spread around better.

That's the funny thing about happiness. Individually, we all have moments of positive and negative. Collectively, we have the responsibility to consider how we let these moments affect others. We also largely have the ability to address them, because they are largely problems created by us to begin with.

I think Gen's point was that the difference between the happiness Madoka chose to pursue and the happiness many in the world pursue is that her wish is more on par with a Ghandi, Mother Teresa, or Dr. King. Those people worked to address issues that immediately affected people while also building a bridge toward a better future for everyone. Dr. King for example wasn't just fighting for black rights, but the rights of all humans. His actions immediately helped the civil rights cause, but they also helped pave the way for equal rights for all people. Such people are inspirational because of that.

However preserving happiness for some at the expense of others has shown to be short sighted and foolish. Many governments, America included, have done shameful things in the name of their own prosperity that harmed the prosperity of others. Rather than being an example that could pave the way for a better tomorrow, they instead chose the short sighted benefits over the long term. They didn't use their considerable power and influence to bring prosperity and happiness to all, and they paid the price for it.

Kyubey, Sayaka, and Homura all lost their way in their intentions. Kyubey for his greed, Sayaka for her motivations, and Homura for her desires. Kyouko tried to force happiness, and learned a painful lesson about why forcing people to be happy is actually worse than letting people find it for themselves. Mami unfortunately never had a choice, but did make the best of it for the most part.

Madoka made the wise decision, not of self sacrifice, but in observing the reasons why people were struggling for happiness and addressing the root of the problem as best as she could. Her results were progress, not a solution, and the "next Madoka" will eventually arise and further progress things. She didn't chose to sacrifice herself, she chose to devote herself. She's less of a martyr and more of a continual force that pushes the world toward the procession of happiness and hope for everyone. Did she sacrifice her own happiness? I don't think so - she seemed perfectly happy with her decision and even continues to hope for a miracle after that.

I could further delve and speculate on the ending, but I'll just end here for the moment. ^^

[sa547]

Originally Posted by Cytrus

Any reactions to Urobuchi's recent interview?

http://yaranakya.wordpress.com/2011/...oes-terrorist/

A better analogy he could've used as an example is the French Revolution: it began with an idealistic vision, but in the end was the Reign of Terror.

[biodude711]

I think this quote describes the Magical Girl system in Madoka Magica perfectly,

You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.
-Harvey Dent, "The Dark Knight"

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

Originally Posted by Cytrus

Any reactions to Urobuchi's recent interview?

http://yaranakya.wordpress.com/2011/...oes-terrorist/

Gen's words weren't well thought out. It seems to me he worded those in a whim just so he could say something attention-grabbing. But in any case, my admiration for the man doesn't change. =)) UROBUCHI FTW!! xDD