Remember11 -The Age of Infinity-

[Elvin]

Originally Posted by 4as

I dont like Rememeber11 not because its a mystery genre but because its storytelling is weak and plot is a mess.

Did you try to figure it out though? This game doesn't spoon feed you the answers at the end. If you need that to enjoy a game, then yes, it's not for you.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by GundamAce

I've been focusing on getting Kokoro's bad endings today. As a result, I've been recording how to get the bad endings, so I'll post a walkthrough here now of my own Bad Ending Walkthrough.

As a note for Kokoro's route, I've learned that there's several invisible counters that pile up, such as a "Stress Counter". By performing certain actions that irritate Mayuzumi too much, it raises the Stress Counter. The only way to get Bad Endings 4 and 7 is to raise this Stress Counter too high.

I'll keep updating as I get more.

That is quite helpful.

And funnily enough, I was wondering if there wasn't any kind of "flags" indeed, considering the amount of variations possible.

Speaking of variations, a positive -and- negative aspect of the game is the fact that it retains the actual state of your progression and shape both routes with it (which explains why the walkthrough included in the fantranslation pressed the point you have to go through Satoru's route after being done with Kokoro's good end).

This is actually a good representation of the loop, thus the "infinity".
However, the problem I see there is the fact you have to deliberately finish a bad end so the flags are "reset" which allow you not to be toasted for a random reason you may not figure.

Seriously, a flowchart with this game will probably have a very funny layout, considering the atrocious number of different flags, triggers and whatever happy changes you can have.

Originally Posted by Elvin

Did you try to figure it out though? This game doesn't spoon feed you the answers at the end. If you need that to enjoy a game, then yes, it's not for you.

I don't pretend to understand completely 4as' point of view, but I'm confident that he isn't the type of being the spoonfed reader (his answers here and Ever17).

I would say that the possibility to answer fully this story is however extremely convulated: as I explained, the critical information is only provided after a unreasonable amount of efforts (all the 31 bad ends), or in a unnatural fashion (tips instead being integrated in the plot), veiled with a unpolished storytelling.

The fact the director himself has to admit the flaws of this game is a definite proof it is hardly a "fair game".
There is an obvious amount of guess / theorycraft you have to go through, but it doesn't mean that the answer is satisfying considering you will reach a limit to this process.
And even after you go all the pain in checking every damn tidbit of information (including the final 100% tip, the mystery girl), it doesn't reward you with data that can explain everything.
In short, it is as if the writers were purposedly trying to make the tale overly complex (which is not, considering how obvious some points are, such like Yuni), then suddenly make the final truth vanish from your sight, rendering it as an impossible goal. Of course, we know why it became like this, but you can't blame people to rant about R11 considering its storytelling.

If you want my personal analogy, I would say that R11 is similar to a imaginary case where Higurashi no Naku Koro ni would end with Minagoroshi, without its resolution and epilogue: Matsuribayashi.
In essence, you know what is the culprit/issue/origin, the modus operandi/basis, however, you don't know the background for it, nor how to deal with it etc.

Of course, R11 did show a "conclusion", however it was cut short by this forced "loop", which is not what you can consider as even "open ended": it is blatantly unfinished.

[GundamAce]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Seriously, a flowchart with this game will probably have a very funny layout, considering the atrocious number of different flags, triggers and whatever happy changes you can have.

A flowchart actually does exist...in Japanese, that is. I'm using it to get the bad endings. But yes, it's so complex that I would never have figured out some of these endings without the guide. Another flag check is the "Energy" flag check- essentially, if Kokoro doesn't have enough energy, you'll get a bad end in a spot where the story would normally continue onwards (this is most present on Day 5.)

Just finished Bad Ending #8 right now. That was f***ing creepy.

[Elvin]

I won't fault anyone for not liking what he did with the ending. I'm just saying that lack of consideration for the reader != lack of writing skill. He could've given you everything you wanted on a platter like in E17, but chose not to. If anything, that makes him a bad person, not a bad writer.

But, big surprise, I'm biased as a member of the translation team. Expecting you to like something because I found it enjoyable is stupid.

[GundamAce]

Originally Posted by Elvin

I won't fault anyone for not liking what he did with the ending. I'm just saying that lack of consideration for the reader != lack of writing skill. He could've given you everything you wanted on a platter like in E17, but chose not to. If anything, that makes him a bad person, not a bad writer.

But, big surprise, I'm biased as a member of the translation team. Expecting you to like something because I found it enjoyable is stupid.

Hey, you're not alone out there. Even though I haven't finished the game, I too find it enjoyable. Maybe not to the extent of Ever17, but I feel that if this game will never be completed fully, then there's no use complaining about it, right? It's not like the more we complain, the game is going to complete itself.

[GundamAce]

Alright, I've gotten as many of Kokoro's Bad Endings as possible (#2, #3, and #17 can only be obtained after playing Satoru's Route), so I'm off to play Satoru's route. I'll start working on his bad endings after I finish his route, so wait until then.

[TheForsaken]

If someone doesn't like the game because of its ending, I'm fine with that. Because it's a lie if I say that I'm not disappointed by it.
But if someone says this is total crap without any convincing argument to support his claim, then I can't agree with him. He gives me the impression that it's not "he hates it because of its flaws", but "because he hates it so he sees nothing but flaws". I've already seen many people like that. They dislike something for a particular reason. Then because they hate it they see nothing good of it and bash it like there's no tomorrow. And I don't think it's fair.

@Klashikari:

Spoiler for Remember 11 spoilers:

About Keiko/Hotori, my point is because she's always like that (changing personalities continuously) so it's became a very normal thing to Kali/Yuni, so why do they need to mention about it?
It's true that Keiko has an "evil personality". But remember when it awoke at the ending, did she go berserk and try to kill the child in front of everyone? No, she took him away while noone noticed. That's what I mean, even when she murdered people in cold blood and in a very brutal way, she's still, well, very "subtle". And I don't remember anywhere in Kokoro's files mentioned that she's ever been in a rampage.
And about Hotori, I'm not a psychiatrist so I'm not sure but I don't it's that strange for someone in unstable mental to have a random outburst like that. It may be a very forced explanation, but not an illogical one.

About Satoru and Enomoto, yes, Satoru is the one who begins everything and a failure is unacceptable to him. But Enomoto? He looks like the type "let's do it because it's fun" to me. The game didn't make it clear about his role in the project, but in my opinion, whatever it is, it's definitely not the brain.
(If we think it in that way, we can explain why Enomoto's explanation to Satoru is so bad, he's basically reciting the manual Satoru gave him )

About Kali, Satoru didn't look like convinced that she's a psychiatrist at all, so the possibility that she's a patient did exist in his head. He just didn't want to force an answer from her. He heard everything she said, but he didn't accept all of them, he just accept what he thought is plausible.

Oh, suddenly something bugs me:

Spoiler for Remember 11 spoilers:

How the hell can Satoru meet his own self BEFORE the plan begins?
It's "Day 7" in SPHIA so it's also "Day 7" in the Third Area, but if the plan haven't started yet then it's before "Day 1".

[Shiro Kaisen]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

Oh, suddenly something bugs me:

Spoiler for Remember 11 spoilers:

How the hell can Satoru meet his own self BEFORE the plan begins?
It's "Day 7" in SPHIA so it's also "Day 7" in the Third Area, but if the plan haven't started yet then it's before "Day 1".

Spoiler:

Because the Third Area takes place in the past, before SPHIA, so our Satoru would be able to meet the Past Enomoto.

Also, I wouldn't call this game awful. Most of the mysteries aren't that hard to solve once you finish the game and have knowledge of the Failed Plan bad end or that awesome Bad End where you drink Kali's water in Satoru's route. The 100% complete TIP, though, is necessary for total understanding of course. The ending's rageworthy, sure, but it's not THAT bad.

That said, I really liked Kokoro and Satoru as characters, and found Yuni really endearing. Didn't care for Utsumi or Hotori all that much, and Yomogi was pretty okay but not a big deal. Of course, I hated Lin. But I think we're kinda supposed to. Also, the story was infinitely better paced than Ever17 and remained interesting the entire time.

It definitely isn't as good as 17, though, which I consider basically the pinnacle of the VN medium. But I'd have been totally shocked if it was. If Ever17 is a 10/10, I'd give R11 and 8. I wish KID hadn't asploded, because I'm sure they'd have made another Infinity game that finished all this.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by GundamAce

I've been focusing on getting Kokoro's bad endings today. As a result, I've been recording how to get the bad endings, so I'll post a walkthrough here now of my own Bad Ending Walkthrough.

Thank you so much for this, it'll be really helpful.

Originally Posted by Elvin

If anything, that makes him a bad person, not a bad writer.

In fact, I'd say that makes him a good writer.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

In fact, I'd say that makes him a good writer.

A good writer knows his audience: if the audience doesn't like this kind of thing then he's a bad writer. I don't actually know whether or not the audience as a whole likes or dislikes this kind of thing, but you can't just excuse an unsatisfied audience in a commercial market.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by 4as

Spoiler for epilogue:

It appears to me that the whole third transfer point was tacked on during the final moments of production, when the budget was already running low.
When Enomoto first meets Satoru and explains him what is going on, he doesnt mention 3rd transfer point - why? It would only make more sense to mention they are using relay point to smooth out the switches between different air pressures and still be able keep secret about whats really there - S: "But where exactly is that third point?" E:"Somewhere in deserted mountains of (make up a name), why? Does it matter?" S:"I guess not".
That third transfer point comes out only moments before the epilogue or in "plan failure" ending. Since they used so many graphics to describe the phenomenon of teleportation, you would image they would do the same for Satoru's explanation, however its all done with text - that is because it was tacked on when they run out of money to order new graphics. Thats even more apparent during the "plan failure" ending where even tho Satoru discovers new location there are no new backgrounds.

Spoiler:

The third transfer point was foreshadowed relatively early on starting in Satoru's route. Well, at the time I thought of it as a "third personality" but once the transfer itself is explained it becomes a third transfer point. If you just compare Kokoro's side and Satoru's side it becomes clear that there are gaps that can only be filled by someone "acting crazy". Even Kokoro's side contains some elements that become unexplained once we see Satoru's personality. I really can't imagine how they could possibly have inserted it at the last second given how integrated it is into the other bits.

I'm not saying your other criticisms aren't valid, but I don't think this one is.

[Elvin]

Originally Posted by Clarste

A good writer knows his audience: if the audience doesn't like this kind of thing then he's a bad writer. I don't actually know whether or not the audience as a whole likes or dislikes this kind of thing, but you can't just excuse an unsatisfied audience in a commercial market.

That's a damned shallow line of thinking that'd leave you with cookie cutter stories with writers afraid to cross any lines. Inception was a good movie that was convoluted as hell and had an unsatisying ending. Buried had the most depressing ending since the mist but was still a great movie for what it was. Having customer satisfaction on the top of the priority list would only limit or kill off their creativity.

Aiming to simply satisfy what people like is what caused the moe boom and led to the YA sections of bookstores being packed with clone upon clone of vampire novels. If you're telling me that those were the products of good writers then I sure as hell hope I'm a bad one

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Elvin

That's a damned shallow line of thinking that'd leave you with cookie cutter stories with writers afraid to cross any lines. Inception was a good movie that was convoluted as hell and had an unsatisying ending. Buried had the most depressing ending since the mist but was still a great movie for what it was. Having customer satisfaction on the top of the priority list would only limit or kill off their creativity.

Aiming to simply satisfy what people like is what caused the moe boom and led to the YA sections of bookstores being packed with clone upon clone of vampire novels. If you're telling me that those were the products of good writers then I sure as hell hope I'm a bad one

I never said it was all of it. Playing it safe is one strategy, but taking risks can also be good, and when it pays off people will love it more than the thing that played it safe. Inception was a risky movie that did really well. Seriously, people love it. That is the mark of success. Taking risks means nothing if your end result isn't good. That's why they call it a risk. The guy who only takes risks and never succeeds has failed as writer because they just overextended themselves. I cannot praise that person, because nothing they have done is worthy of praise.

That said, I don't hate Remember11, it just has some pretty noticeable flaws. You can't just make the flaws disappear with a wave of your hand by claiming that taking risks is good writing. Taking risks is only good writing when it pays off in the end.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Clarste

A good writer knows his audience: if the audience doesn't like this kind of thing then he's a bad writer.

Bullshit. If you have succeeded in creating any kind of strong emotion in your audience, even anger, and this is at least partially intended, then you have succeeded as a writer.

Frankly, I like endings that piss me off, because that way I know the writer isn't the type to compromise for the sake of pleasing everyone, which inevitably leads to bad writing.

It sounds like you're correlating artistic quality with commercial success. This is nothing more than a huge mistake.


Oh, and Inception was unintelligent, uninspired, unimaginative, and overall an even worse movie than Avatar. It's just a shameless attempt at making stupid people (read: the majority of moviegoers) feel smart, and it succeeded.

[4as]

Originally Posted by Clarste

I'm not saying your other criticisms aren't valid, but I don't think this one is.

Spoiler for epilogue:

Ok, lets review some facts about third transfer point.
(Brace yourself, I will take a while to state my arguments)
It was mention that third point was used to smooth out the passage from different air pressures. Now when you think about for best results it would be logical to easy it out both ways: "up" and "down (from/to Aosagi island to/from mount Akakura). However there is only one relay point. In other words it would have to be done this way:
(K is for Kokoro, S for Satoru and - for unknown third person)

So this way everyone would in some point in time end up going through the relay point and not get assaulted by different settings so sharply.
However, this type of switching doesnt work with facts Remember11 has revealed to the player. We can see that in that case unknown third person would stay in Kokoro's place for two "turns", so if getting accustom to different air pressure in relay point would take 33mins, third person would have 66mins to roam around before Satoru comes in. Which of course doesnt fit in as Satoru come to conclusion the gap is only 33mins long.
Other possibility is that the relay point was used only for 11.5 minutes, but this also doesnt fit in as Kakoro would reach Satoru's body in 11.5mins (K -> relay point and 11.5mins pause -> S), which in turn would instantly show the gap in their noted times.
In short, that type of switching is impossible.
The only other way is more straightforward:

Now we have to ask in what order were locations being moved.
Lets say for example that the starting point is SPHIA with Satoru being in his own body -> then transfer happens and SPHIA is moved into relay point -> then into the mountains -> finally it takes big leap back into the island. This however is impossible because in that order it would be: Satoru in his own body -> Third person is Satoru's body -> Kokoro in Starou's body -> back to Satoru, and we know its after Kokoro that the unknown third person was taking over Satoru's body. So the correct order is the reversed version of the one mentioned above - its SPHIA that was jumping directly onto the mountains while the mountain hut was moved into the relay point.
So, when transfer happens with Kokoro taking over Satoru's body SPHIA is jumping straight onto the mountains, and yet there are no "clues" about this fact in Kokoro's route. For example I dont remember her mention about rattling windows (like Satoru does in his review of video data), but more importantly there is one scene when Kokoro transfers to Satoru's body when he was outside near the wall while Utsumi is going back. Right, so we have a jump from the sea level into the mountains and both of them dont display any sort of nausea (or something)? Especially Utsumi who wasnt very athletic and I would image she should have problems breathing at such height, not to mention she was quite sensitive - I mean, she sensed earthquake coming, but not the air pressure change? Hmm...
But lets leave that for a moment and focus on the unknown third person - as we established he/she takes control after Kokoro leaves the body and before Satoru come in. Now lets look for instances of that happening, for example the moment someone tore the newspaper: Kokoro left her body while holding the newspaper and then Satoru comes in only to gather the remaining pieces. It doesnt sound to me like a long gap but more like a single minute instead of 33 of them. Similar situation happens when Satoru almost drowns in his own bathroom - it was established there was no one there beside him, so that had to be an attempt of suicide and to me 33 minutes sounds like an enough to time to do that, since at best average human cant hold breath for no longer than 5mins, so yet again that gap had to be shorter. Finally, the stabbing of Enomoto: whoever was in control of Satoru's body in that moment took one swift leap onto Enomoto and proceed to stab him multiple times, while at the same time Yuni had entered the basement and switched the light on ... so yeah, you want me to believe Yuni was watching this grotesque scene for 33 minutes? Hmm...
Thats where my theory comes in.
I believe writers behind Remember11 tried to make the third person a lingering presence (a spirit if you will) while at the same time they didnt thought about air pressure yet. It makes more sense to me that Hotori died during the transfer and her spirit was trying to find new host, like for example pushing out Keike out of her body who in turned was taking over Satoru for brief moment before Kokoro come in. Plus, they never seem to get their time perfectly, it always was "Since I was here already for few minutes, I say transfer occurred few minutes earlier".
If thats how it was it of course makes sense we dont get any clues about third location nor does Enomoto mentions it.
So yeah, probably the idea for air pressure and thus third location had come in to the project far too late to change anything and instead they had Satoru (during the video data review) say "Why I didnt notice the air pressure changes? Probably because of all the chaos around me" ... how convenient.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Bullshit. If you have succeeded in creating any kind of strong emotion in your audience, even anger, and this is at least partially intended, then you have succeeded as a writer.

Frankly, I like endings that piss me off, because that way I know the writer isn't the type to compromise for the sake of pleasing everyone, which inevitably leads to bad writing.

It sounds like you're correlating artistic quality with commercial success. This is nothing more than a huge mistake.


Oh, and Inception was unintelligent, uninspired, unimaginative, and overall an even worse movie than Avatar. It's just a shameless attempt at making stupid people (read: the majority of moviegoers) feel smart, and it succeeded.

I haven't seen Inception, I just looked up reviews for it in response to the other post. I'm not arguing that commercial success is the judge of quality, since that often depends on advertising budgets and whatnot, but rather average audience reviews. You can have an audience of one person and be the best writer in the world if that one person loves it (and its also good in more objective ways, again this isn't the only criteria).

Inspiring emotions in your audience is a good thing, but you shouldn't be angry at the author. That's just meaningless. it could be argued that the writer is a good troll is this case.

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen

Spoiler:

Because the Third Area takes place in the past, before SPHIA, so our Satoru would be able to meet the Past Enomoto.

Spoiler for :

No, it doesn't work that way.
Using Satoru's representation, we have A - B - C - ... - X - Y - Z becomes A - X - B - Y - C - Z - ... which means we can't return to A when we're already at Z, just like Satoru of Day 7 can't swap with Kokoro of Day 1.

[Vikitehwaffu]

How do I activate page turning mode/auto mode? I can set that as default, but not turn it off/on.

[kona~chan]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

Spoiler for :

No, it doesn't work that way.
Using Satoru's representation, we have A - B - C - ... - X - Y - Z becomes A - X - B - Y - C - Z - ... which means we can't return to A when we're already at Z, just like Satoru of Day 7 can't swap with Kokoro of Day 1.

Spoiler for for:

satoru planned to go to Australia on January 18th, 2011.
thanks to the miracle phone call from shelter cabin he canceled that,
if we assume the plan started in january 11th 2012, it's not weird at all if he able to meet his own self

[4as]

Originally Posted by Vikitehwaffu

How do I activate page turning mode/auto mode? I can set that as default, but not turn it off/on.

Oh, I couldnt figure it out at first too had to look into manual D:
You have to hold enter key (for brief moment) for that.