[Manga] Naruto Chapter 646 Discussion Thread

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

Sadly, allegories, metaphors and similes were not covered in Kishimoto's Writing 101 class (understatement was also left out, but hyperbole was well covered)...

i'm sure there was an entire semester dedicated to deus ex machinas. hiruzen showing up out of the blue was to me like: "oh hey... it's hiruzen... neat"

[KnightOfTwo]

I'm all for trying to be optimistic when reading each week, but this was just dumb. The whole plot of how chakra came to be contradicted the nature of chakra as we've understood it. It was nice and simple, chakra is an inherent force of nature held by all living things.

The story of the Sage was simple and clean and nice as well. Sage was the first human who mastered the use of Chakra and then hoping to help the world, he trained people in his knowledge of it's use. He was just that, a sage, a learned man who thought that by teaching the world what he knew of chakra and how to control it, the world could be better off.

Now we have the Sage's mom eating a Kami Kami no Mi . It was all a rather unnecessary as the current story sufficed. At the same time the 10 tails monster is now turning into a giant flower....that has an eyeball.

The only thing enjoyable this week was the return of Sarutobi, good to see he didn't bite it off screen. Still waiting for Madara to play his trump card.

[Kafriel]

Originally Posted by The Green One

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was fairly sure it's the author that decides what's cannon and what isn't. He may very well have intended to go this way from the start.

I don't really think so. The author gets to decide what to do, but it's an editor's job to supervise the way it is done. Having some sort of magic fruit power unknowingly passed on to people through generations is too bad to have been an original idea - it was a forced decision, with no immediate need for it.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by forcerounds

You're oversimplifying it. It's the result of the christ-figure Sage of Six Paths taming the Shinju when it could have easily taken all of the chakra back, and then distributing the power all over the place.

Yeeees, but prior to this everything had chakra. Now, this new knowledge shows that humans do not have chakra, a concept that aside from being ridiculous (why does every living being in the world have chakra except humans?) also mean that even today there are people without chakra, and that becoming a ninja is something you can only do if you're born as one.

Additionally, it also implies that every ninja in the world, every single one of them, is a descendant of the Sage of the Six Paths.

Originally Posted by forcerounds

Is this what happens when we get a summary of a past event instead of two or more chapters of flashbacks? You guys are tough to please.

I wouldn't have minded a flashback, as it not being a flashback isn't what's bothering me. It's the content of the summary that irks me.

Originally Posted by The Green One

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was fairly sure it's the author that decides what's cannon and what isn't. He may very well have intended to go this way from the start.

Given the massive contradictions, I doubt that.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Yeeees, but prior to this everything had chakra.

Does everything have chakra? Everything has energy of some sort (nature has nature energy, humanity/other lifeforms has spiritual and physical), but I do not remember it being stated that everything has chakra (i could be wrong, of course).

Maybe the fruit simply created the tenketsu chakra system? As for the implication that all shinobi are descendents of the Sage...I guess that makes some amount of sense, at least more than no one being able to utilize an naturally occurring energy before the Sage (which seems a little ludicrous)?

If anything, this really calls into question the relationship between nature energy and the Jyuubi. If all chakra comes from the Jyuubi, then why does nature energy hurt it?

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by james0246

Does everything have chakra? Everything has energy of some sort (nature has nature energy, humanity/other lifeforms has spiritual and physical), but I do not remember it being stated that everything has chakra (i could be wrong, of course).

We have several examples of the various eye techniques seeing chakra in nature, several clans using animals who themselves use the 'human chakra.' It certainly isn't limited to humans alone, which it should be if eating this once-a-milennium forbidden fruit is the only way to get it.

[Quol]

You guys are forgetting something, madara himself said that the whole history was forgotten about the fruit, which means its up to us to decide who to trust. The people within the story or the author making the story.

Its just a twist like someone saying
"I'm your long lost twin brother!"
your not supposed to go
"wait, I haven't heard about him having a twin brother before I reject this!"

Also chakra can be made to do an almost infinite number of things, humans could have simply given chakra to animals and the animals to their offspring or the animals could have gotten a type of chakra radiation, the list is limitless.

[DarkAngelZ28]

What exactly is contradictory to what has been said?

Just because in one page they say the sky looks blue and in the other says the sky is black or has no color does not make a retcon.

With all that is known.... What prevents the author from saying that the reason chakra is now everywhere was because the Juubi was tamed and divided, thus sharing his chakra all over the world and its inhabitants?

For example, the Juubi is supposed to be the 10-tail and there are only 9 embodiments of chakra beasts in this world (from the 1-tail to the 9th tail). Where do you think the remaining chakra of the 10th tail is?

There are other ways to explain why everyone (ie. humans, animals, nature) has chakra without retconning anything

[Kafriel]

And what happened with: Once your out of Chakra, you're dead? If the humans never had chakra in the first place, how were they alive?

Additionally, there are still civilians in the Naruto world. If chakra is, essentially, life force, they should have it as well...

Where do you think the remaining chakra of the 10th tail is?

There is no remaining chakra, the 10-tails is comprised of the 9 tailed beasts' chakra.

[DarkAngelZ28]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Additionally, there are still civilians in the Naruto world. If chakra is, essentially, life force, they should have it as well...

There is no remaining chakra, the 10-tails is comprised of the 9 tailed beasts' chakra.

Well it looks like Kishi is stating otherwise through Madara. He just said that the Juubi is taking back what is his when sucking everyone's chakra.

The Juubi could be compromised of the 9 tailed beasts' chakra. But that doesn't mean there is another portion that was left out. He could write himself out of this if is clever with the use of the tablets, and the fact that many do not remember the events that occurred in the past.

Hell, we could go around this in different manner. Where is that HUGE tree that was stated in the tablets?

[Kafriel]

He already used the empty vessel of the 10-tails in order to revive it. That took only the bijuu chakra and maybe that of the jinchuuriki - if that was enough for a revival, it didn't have anything else...otherwise Tobi would have had to sacrifice every human on the planet to awaken it.

[DarkAngelZ28]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

He already used the empty vessel of the 10-tails in order to revive it. That took only the bijuu chakra and maybe that of the jinchuuriki - if that was enough for a revival, it didn't have anything else...otherwise Tobi would have had to sacrifice every human on the planet to awaken it.

He revived it. Doesn't mean he is 100%. He even revived it without the 8th or 9th full chakra.

[GDB]

So we now have Yggdrasil/the Tree of Might in the story?

[ranchan13]

I'm about 95% sure that Naruto will end with the end of the war, now.
I mean, the introduction of the 10-tails, the Chakra Tree of Doomy Doomy Doom, and Sasuke and Orochimaru on the side of the alliance..... This series is dead at the end of this arc, which has gone on WAY TOO EFFING LONG.

That remaining 5% still hopes for a short time skip to set up a final battle between Naruto and Sasuke which results in either both of them dying, in a lover's embrace (which will crush all the shipping wars, thankfully) or them becoming BFFs again and ruling over the entire ninja nation as some kind of joint leadership.

[shalala]

I enjoyed the origins of chakra and how it came to be. 3rd Hokage finally shows up better late then never.

[Kafriel]

Originally Posted by DarkAngelZ28

He revived it. Doesn't mean he is 100%. He even revived it without the 8th or 9th full chakra.

Do note, Obito can nullify everything chakra-based that people throw at him. It's a pretty absolute state, can't get much better than that...

[NeoNero]

Hey,
sorry if my english is an bit odd.

If humans originally didn't have chackra and only grained it because ONE woman ate an fruit. An fruit which gave her, and her descendant, the ability to use chackra .How long would it take for this ability to spread through the whole mankind?
( I mean if the fruit changed her DNA in order to use chackra).


Also would that mean that nature chackra also originates from the Juubi?

[forcerounds]

The manga has never said that humans have always had chakra. So, this chapter doesn't contradict what we've already known about it. Prior to this chapter, we didn't have an explanation of why the Sage of Six Paths was the first of any human to have the Rinnegan. We didn't have an explanation of why non-Uchihas an non-Hyuugas can use a fully functional Sharingan and Byakugan respectively. We didn't have an explanation for why it is genetically possible to implant Hashirama's cells into something and suddenly gain access to Mokuton jutsu.

Now we can guess the answers to these unexplained details with a fair amount of accuracy. It is because all chakra came from the same source. Furthermore, we can assume that nature energy is different. That it has always been around, but is not readily accessible to most humans without very special training.

Even though we were content with the explanation about the origin of shinobi before today, there must be a reason we are told this now. I for one think the Shinju is somewhat symbolic and up for interpretation. Madara's interpretation is that the power ninjas gained from the Shinju failed to create peace. It only created more misery. Another interpretation might suggest that because chakra comes from the same source, ninjas have more in common with one another and bear the same consequences of "original sin" so to speak. If this part of history were not omitted from them, would they have fought for so long? Wouldn't they have seen their society as one nation much sooner? Now is the time for that interpretation to come into play.

[NeoNero]

Did we really need an explanation of the origin of chackra.
I mean we accept the existence of mana in other Manga.
Or would for example Dragonball have been better with some crappy explanation of the origin of ki.

Originally Posted by forcerounds

why it is genetically possible to implant Hashirama's cells into something and suddenly gain access to Mokuton jutsu

It could be that these transplanted cells mold the mokuton chackra and store it in the body. This would later allow the shinobi to use mokuton jutsu.
or if another elemental kekei genkai.

Originally Posted by forcerounds

We didn't have an explanation of why non-Uchihas an non-Hyuugas can use a fully functional Sharingan and Byakugan respectively

I dont expect a good explanation for this.

I find it strange that the eye alone is enough to use ability like x-ray vision or copy a technique by merely seeing it. Without a brain that is adapted to process the specific information.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Additionally, it also implies that every ninja in the world, every single one of them, is a descendant of the Sage of the Six Paths.

Check this out

Originally Posted by Keroko

Yeeees, but prior to this everything had chakra. Now, this new knowledge shows that humans do not have chakra, a concept that aside from being ridiculous (why does every living being in the world have chakra except humans?) also mean that even today there are people without chakra, and that becoming a ninja is something you can only do if you're born as one.

Where do you get this? In this chapter i read "she was the first human to use chakra", it doesn't say that she or her child was the first that had chakra, but used. Remember the story of Haku back in the beginning of the manga, regular people hated those who were able to use chakra, Haku's father immedately tried to kill his family when he noticed that Haku can use it. Haku never learned to use it, he just naturally had this ablity from his bloodline. But nobody said that people can't learn to use it. Also if hundreds of years have passed since the event then the Sage of 6 paths children could be in millions, since there is an exponential explosion in human reproduction, assuming that every time one parent has this chakra using ability all the chilren will have it.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Additionally, it also implies that every ninja in the world, every single one of them, is a descendant of the Sage of the Six Paths.

It might be that they are descendants since the exponential growth of their number as generations pass is possible, but it can be that with proper learning normal humans can also learn how to use it. At least it's most likely that every "advanced bloodline" comes from the Sage of 6 paths, not only Uchiha and Senju, but everybody is related ( Hyuuga, Uzumaki, even Haku is a very distant relative. Just making simple math: let's say there's a new generation every 20 years, and 600 years have passed, then we had 30 generations, and let's say on average they made 2 children with normal people (1 parent with chakra use ability and the other normal), then it's 2^30 = 1 billion descendants

Also we shouldn't say that the Sage had just normal chakra like a normal person or even normal ninja, because as know he was able to beat and seal the 10 tails. That's not a normal human level ability. He surely had special chakra, that's from the "god tree", even Uchiha who have probably much weaker chakra can make a chakra monster called Susano, average ninja can't do that with their normal chakra, but that doesn't mean that they do not have chakra. Also it was never stated that some part of the people if they join the ninja academy will never be able to learn how to use chakra, so i'm assuming everybody can learn it to an extent. But most people just stay at genin level, probably those who have neither special talent nor inherited some level of chakra use ability from the Sage.

So we can make sense of this chapter, it's actually a cool chapter in my opinion. Mostly because it kills people, no matter what Naruto does people just die, and Naruto's despair is back, we see it on his face. Let's see if Kishi has the balls to kill Sakura in the next chapter

However there's one thing that was not explained: Hashirama flashbacks to the young Madara telling him about his different dream, so at that point Madara already read the stone tablet's whole text, which means he should have had the rinnegan, but this was before he fought Hashirama and got his cells, and later he even states that he got his rinnegan only at an old age. So either you can read the tablet with only an EMS or something is wrong here