Fate/ Series Q&A

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Moczo

Shiki does kind of have a 'shoot first, ask questions later' attitude. He's nice enough under normal circumstances, but when threatened he tends to do what he needs to in order to survive without question, and unless the enemy is someone he personally cares about (which, admittedly, happens to him more often than you'd think) killing them tends to be his first option. It's not hard to see Shirou having a major problem with that.

Yeah, I guess this would be it.

Shirou sees killing people (even highly dangerous ones) as a last resort, whereas Shiki would kill a random stranger without a second thought if they were threatening him or endangering others. Shiki is also more selfish, and less 'heroic' (in the sense that Shiki just gets dragged into heroism by his circumstances, whereas Shirou actively seeks it out).

[LostHanyou]

Is Shiki really that more willing to kill than Shirou? Shiki takes the concept of death far more seriously than Shirou does, and seems a lot more affected by it. When Shirou does kill people, he doesn't seem to have any qualms at all with it. Shiki nearly freaks out after killing a zombie.

I find they'd do very similar things if they were in the same situation, with the only real difference being Shiki would actually put the value of his own life into the equation.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by LostHanyou

When Shirou does kill people, he doesn't seem to have any qualms at all with it.

When did Shirou kill anyone who wasn't a Servant, while his mind and ideals were still intact?

[LostHanyou]

Originally Posted by GDB

When did Shirou kill anyone who wasn't a Servant, while his mind and ideals were still intact?

I'm going to assume by ideals you mean not Archer, so ignoring that... All the corpses inside the church basement. And oh yes I'm counting them as being killed by Shirou.
Shiki... Never kills a person that isn't a vampire or zombie. Of course, I think he would under strenuous conditions (someone like Kirei), but I don't think he'd be nearly as nonchalant about it.

[GDB]

Meh, I don't consider Kotomine a person, but point taken. Though Shirou definitely didn't kill those in the basement. That was all Kotomine. All Shirou did was not attempt to Shenron them back.

[Cherry_Lover]

Yeah, but killing Kotomine was necessary, because he was a danger to others. Further, Kotomine was an evil bastard who, in the Fate route, was practically a Complete Monster (due to his treatment of the kids in the basement).

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Yeah, but killing Kotomine was necessary, because he was a danger to others. Further, Kotomine was an evil bastard who, in the Fate route, was practically a Complete Monster (due to his treatment of the kids in the basement).

Arguably, though, the only reason it was really necessary to kill Kotomine at all was because of the fact that the Grail War even took place, and he had a chance to grant his wish; I have a feeling that in the normal world, even with his tendencies, Kotomine wasn't much of a threat to anyone.

[Cherry_Lover]

Well, yes, perhaps, but nevertheless, the Grail War was happening, and Kotomine was an immediate danger (to Ilya, in particular).

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by LostHanyou

Is Shiki really that more willing to kill than Shirou? Shiki takes the concept of death far more seriously than Shirou does, and seems a lot more affected by it. When Shirou does kill people, he doesn't seem to have any qualms at all with it. Shiki nearly freaks out after killing a zombie.

I find they'd do very similar things if they were in the same situation, with the only real difference being Shiki would actually put the value of his own life into the equation.

You have to put this into context, though. Consider that a major portion of Shiki's character development in many of these routes is 'am I a serial killer'? Because he kind of thinks he is, given his tendency to flip out and murder a bunch of stuff when his life is endangered. It's been awhile, but I think that might only be the second thing he killed at all in that route, and the first was

Spoiler for Tsukihime:

Mercy-killing a girl from his school who'd been turned into a Vampire.

So yeah, Shiki is kind of messed up. Not too strange he'd be flipping out over even a zombie at that point.

[mAc Chaos]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Yeah, but killing Kotomine was necessary, because he was a danger to others. Further, Kotomine was an evil bastard who, in the Fate route, was practically a Complete Monster (due to his treatment of the kids in the basement).

He did that in every route, didn't he?

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by mAc Chaos

He did that in every route, didn't he?

Yeah, but Fate is the only route in which Shirou knows that he did. Plus, in HF it's shown that he has a sympathetic backstory, which makes him seem like less of a Complete Monster.

[Haak]

I wouldn't call him a complete monster. Just a psychopath.

Anyway, I have some more questions.

Spoiler for Heaven's Feel:

1) Why exactly is it that Rule Breaker could only work when Sakura was in Holy Grail Mode?

2) Did Shirou actually kill Dark Berseker nine times with Nine Lives Works? If so why didn'r Archer do that in Fate? Was it because Shirou could only do it because Beserker lost his magic skin/armor? If that's so why did Berserker lose it anyway? Dark Saber didn't lose her armor...

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Haak

I wouldn't call him a complete monster. Just a psychopath.

Anyway, I have some more questions.

Spoiler for Heaven's Feel:

1) Why exactly is it that Rule Breaker could only work when Sakura was in Holy Grail Mode?

2) Did Shirou actually kill Dark Berseker nine times with Nine Lives Works? If so why didn'r Archer do that in Fate? Was it because Shirou could only do it because Beserker lost his magic skin/armor? If that's so why did Berserker lose it anyway? Dark Saber didn't lose her armor...

If I'm not mistaken...

Spoiler for HF:

1) She hadn't actually contracted with Angra Manyu until then. Prior to that, she was merely being fueled by it.

2) Yes, and I guess a plot hole. There's a fair number of them.

[DragoZERO]

Spoiler for HF:

I thought Dark Berserker was pretty much half-dead when he was absorbed by the shadow and all.

[Cherry_Lover]

Spoiler for HF:

Originally Posted by GDB

1) She hadn't actually contracted with Angra Manyu until then. Prior to that, she was merely being fueled by it.

Yeah, this. For Shirou to use Rule Breaker, she has to have accepted the contract with Angra Mainyu. Otherwise, he has nothing to break.

2) Yes, and I guess a plot hole. There's a fair number of them.

Archer most likely just didn't think of it. After all, "I know, I'll trace the big lump of rock that Berserker is holding" isn't actually all that logical a plan, when you have UBW and a load of Broken Phantasms you can use, and attacking Berserker with it involves getting into range of his axe. Shirou just didn't have any other option, and he got lucky.

Alternately, Archer's main goal was to stall Berserker for long enough that Rin could get away. If he'd tried using Nine Lives and it hadn't worked (for whatever reason), then the battle would have been over in seconds, which would have resulted in Rin's guts ending up splattered all over the Einsbern forest.

[Haak]

Ah thanks for the answers, you guys.

(Unfortunately I still need to spread the love)

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by GDB

If I'm not mistaken...

Spoiler for HF:

1) She hadn't actually contracted with Angra Manyu until then. Prior to that, she was merely being fueled by it.

2) Yes, and I guess a plot hole. There's a fair number of them.

Spoiler for HF:

1.) Actually she wasn't "really" being fueled by it, otherwise Shirou providing her energy would be a moot point. It was acting through a primal part of her mind and using her magic to try to gain energy for itself, which is where the whole "its like a child in the womb and she's the mother". Except this child did not get energy from the mother, so it used her to get energy for itself. This is where people get mixed up, when they say, "Sakura ate people". It merely gave her excess energy from absorbing the souls of people.

Bit on the other point, yes, the "contract" where she became the avatar of Angra Mainyu only came after she cracked under the pressure of being the grail, AM's whisperings, and believing herself to be a monster when 'she killed Shinji'.

[Haak]

Er...just to clarify...

Spoiler for HF:

By Sakura Holy Grail Mode, I mean Sakura on the very last day when Angra Manyu is about to be born, not Sakura when she accepts Angra Manyu and becomes Dark Sakura.

Or could Shirou actually use Rule Breaker when he first saw Dark Sakura nearly kill Tohsaka?

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Haak

Er...just to clarify...

Spoiler for HF:

By Sakura Holy Grail Mode, I mean Sakura on the very last day when Angra Manyu is about to be born, not Sakura when she accepts Angra Manyu and becomes Dark Sakura.

Or could Shirou actually use Rule Breaker when he first saw Dark Sakura nearly kill Tohsaka?

Yep. He most certainly could have done that if he thought of it.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Yep. He most certainly could have done that if he thought of it.

...

Oh that's just messed up...