Romance in Macross

[Teletha]

Originally Posted by stray

Decided to move this in Romance thread to liven things up a bit and to keep the episode thread from being derailed... this isn't necessarily all directed at you magnus but Westlo hit me up about what I was saying in IRC too so I figured I'd clarify.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I can agree with, or at least respect most of what you said with regard to Sheryl's development. And realistically, we won't know exactly what will happen until next week (or maybe even after that).

Let me try to put this as objectively as I can. Sheryl is, more than likely, going to go to Alto for support at some point. Alto is either:
a. going to suddenly be warm, and understanding, and help Sheryl through this (...ok this one just makes me laugh)
b. going to be aloof and brush off the issue, maybe giving Sheryl some bad acting advice from his father or telling her to brush it off like he's brushing off his problems. And... they'll argue again.

I don't understand why that makes you laugh? You honestly think Alto's going to be a jerk about the ultimate truth that Sheryl will have to face? I think more then likely a) will happen. He's already said he's worried about her and keeping track of how she is in the hospital. I don't see him blowing off whatever it is she has to face here.

This is Ranka not knowing if she should take a part in a movie or some other random thing. This is about Sheryl's whole being and her life and the fact that she was probably used, isn't what she think she is or whatever. Honestly it's kind of hard to talk about since we don't know exactly what the truth is. But Alto being flippant about it? I just can't see it. How do you picture the conversation?

Sheryl - Hey, Alto I'm a clone/cyborg/fake Ranka and my past is totally made up and I was just used to start some kind of war. I'm responsible for bringing the Vajra to Frontier and my entire career as Sheryl Nome is just one big lie.
Alto - Who cares? I'm being tsundere.

I also don't think Alto's daddy issues compare to Sheryl's issues. But if he did blow her off, I'd say F him and in no way does he deserve Sheryl.

I'm trying to keep things relatively lighthearted, but, honestly... which one seems more in character here?

Let's look at it from Sheryl's perspective. Say... Alto gives her some lame advice from her father to help her through what she's dealing with.
a. She appreciates Alto is there for her regardless of how.
b. She beats the living piss out of him for being the tool that he is.

Honestly I can't say which way it would go. I don't want to see Sheryl become a submissive little puppy or something, that would honestly make me lose a ton of respect for Kawamori and co. especially considering how well I feel they've presented these characters as genuinely... 'human' for so long.

Looking at it in a more 'human' light though... I mean... have you ever fallen that hard in life? Or maybe... tried to help someone who has? Kind of a bad question, but... people tend to do some sketchy shit when they think they're at the end of their rope. Like... oh, I don't know... get violently angry towards someone who's trying to help them?

See above. You think Alto is more of an asshole then he actually is. What advice could he even give her? I don't want her to be some shell of herself, but I imagine she's not going to be Sheryl Nome as she was before for at least an episode. She won't even know who Sheryl Nome is probably. I don't see her getting violent. She's violent normally at times.

I'm not knocking Sheryl, or even saying I know what's going to happen. I just think Sheryl's 'breakdown' as a catalyst for romance could just be a terrible plot progression, unless it's accompanied by some major character developments on Alto's side. That's not to take anything from the possibilities between them; all things considered the hope of being with Alto might be the light at the end of the tunnel that helps her get through it. But it's just as likely that during her pretty much obligatory introspection, she starts realizing that Alto can't help her through this, and maybe even... may not be right for her.

Torpedo away...

You seem to think Sheryl likes Alto only for what he can do for her and for his support, which has never once been shown. He's never done much for her at all, but she still likes him. I think you are underestimating Alto. He might be flippant about some things, but this type of thing? No, he won't be. Like Tak mentioned, even Hikaru got a freaking clue when he saw what Misa was going through in DYRL.

[stray]

Originally Posted by Teletha

Sheryl - Hey, Alto I'm a clone/cyborg/fake Ranka and my past is totally made up and I was just used to start some kind of war. I'm responsible for bringing the Vajra to Frontier and my entire career as Sheryl Nome is just one big lie.
Alto - Who cares? I'm being tsundere.

LOL that would be an awesome conversation.

I don't understand why that makes you laugh? You honestly think Alto's going to be a jerk about the ultimate truth that Sheryl will have to face? I think more then likely a) will happen. He's already said he's worried about her and keeping track of how she is in the hospital. I don't see him blowing off whatever it is she has to face here.

I also don't think Alto's daddy issues compare to Sheryl's issues. But if he did blow her off, I'd say F him and in no way does he deserve Sheryl.

It's not so much that I think Alto's an asshole, I just think people are giving him way too much credit, and more importantly, underestimating just how far Sheryl stands to fall. We are talking about the same person who, way back in episode 7, said something along the lines of "jeez, I don't know what to say when you get like that" when she opened up to him about growing up on Galaxy.

That stuff would fly when "watashi wa Sheryl Nome!" was in full effect, but now? Galaxy is still unaccounted for, Grace stabbed her in the back as an abandoned experiment (and tried to kill her), Ranka overshadowed her career, who happens to be the person the guy she likes is leaning towards over her in the love department. And she just might be a clone. At the end of the day, no matter how much Alto could be sympathetic to that... he'd still probably be thinking about Ranka, in the back of his mind.

See above. You think Alto is more of an asshole then he actually is. What advice could he even give her? I don't want her to be some shell of herself, but I imagine she's not going to be Sheryl Nome as she was before for at least an episode. She won't even know who Sheryl Nome is probably. I don't see her getting violent. She's violent normally at times.

lol very true @ the last part of that. I'm not saying she's not going to come out of it, I just think it's more likely that someone like Michael (SS Witch Craft FTW ), or even Ranka, would help her through this.

You seem to think Sheryl likes Alto only for what he can do for her and for his support, which has never once been shown. He's never done much for her at all, but she still likes him. I think you are underestimating Alto. He might be flippant about some things, but this type of thing? No, he won't be. Like Tak mentioned, even Hikaru got a freaking clue when he saw what Misa was going through in DYRL.

I think comparing to DYRL is apples to oranges... for all intents and purposes, Hikaru and Misa thought they were the last 2 humans left in the universe. Minmay, and the Macross were both gone, and... all they had was each other. Which isn't to detract from HikaruXMisa, but they were essentially in the same boat, learned to like each other and grew to love each other. That's not to say that that something similar isn't possible between AltoXSheryl. But whether Alto is able to lend a helping hand here, this is Sheryl's struggle; and quite frankly it stands to change the whole dynamic of her relationship to Alto, for good or bad. Like I was saying though, if it's accompanied by an equal character development for Alto, I could see romance coming from the situation alot more.

Anyway, it's not that I'm trying to say she likes him for what he can do for her; in fact it's almost exactly the opposite... it's more like... will she still like him if he lets her down when she feels she actually does need something from him the most... or something.

[Eidolon Sniper]

I agree with stray, Sheryl would probably get help from people who are at least quite aware of what she's going through like Michel and Ranka, not from Alto-hime himself. It's just way out of Alto's personality spectrum (at this point) to be suddenly all warm and very helpful to people. He would probably try to understand her, but Sheryl would have to convince him who the real Sheryl Nome is first. If Alto would help Sheryl, it would probably be the Alto-hime way.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

it would probably be the Alto-hime way.

Like stabbing you multiple times, then strap you to a rock and push you into the ocean, only to pull you back up much later. Provide that you are not dead already.

Yeah, thats the Alto-Hime way for ya. So far, Sheryl is probably the only person who somehow has the magical ability to deflect that.

- Tak (Although I doubt she'd ask Michel, I don't know why she would)

[ickem]

Well, the thing is that it's not like Alto is really an ass, but more that he just doesn't know how to deal with people very well. He obviously cares when things are serious, but, like in episode 6 with Sheryl's weak moment, he tries to defuse things with brusque comments instead of trying to comfort the person involved. He's a lot more comfortable with both Sheryl and Ranka now, so if they needed some support I'm sure he would come through for them. That goes for any of the people that have entered into his circle of friends actually.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by ickem

Well, the thing is that it's not like Alto is really an ass, but more that he just doesn't know how to deal with people very well. He obviously cares when things are serious, but, like in episode 6 with Sheryl's weak moment, he tries to defuse things with brusque comments instead of trying to comfort the person involved. He's a lot more comfortable with both Sheryl and Ranka now, so if they needed some support I'm sure he would come through for them. That goes for any of the people that have entered into his circle of friends actually.

I just like how Sheryl can somehow strike back against an Alto argument with much wit in the process

I mean, Sheryl could be all better simply by being in an argument with Alto.

- Tak (There are rumors indicating Sheryl might be helped by Alto's father. Of course, should that happen, we probably will get to see Sheryl in a kimono. About damn time)

[ickem]

Originally Posted by Tak

I just like how Sheryl can somehow strike back against an Alto argument with much wit in the process

I mean, Sheryl could be all better simply by being in an argument with Alto.

- Tak (There are rumors indicating Sheryl might be helped by Alto's father. Of course, should that happen, we probably will get to see Sheryl in a kimono. About damn time)

If thats' the case、then according to anime convention it can only be Alto's mom's kimono. Although this being Frontier, it can end up being a kimono that Alto used to wear for one of his roles.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by ickem

If thats' the case、then according to anime convention it can only be Alto's mom's kimono. Although this being Frontier, it can end up being a kimono that Alto used to wear for one of his roles.

Yes, but it is also mentioned in some rumors that Sheryl might receive education from Alto's family in becoming a good wife!

As much as I doubt that, my friends, that is still something to anticipate.

- Tak

[stray]

Originally Posted by Tak

- Tak (There are rumors indicating Sheryl might be helped by Alto's father. Of course, should that happen, we probably will get to see Sheryl in a kimono. About damn time)

Ok, that could qualify as an equal character development on the Alto front. This rumor didn't come from anyplace ending in 'ch', the Chinese BBS'es, or... really any of the usual sources that never get anything right, did it?

I was telling someone on IRC it'd probably be Michael, Ranka, or maybe some random stranger... although my personal preference was Klan. It's not like the Zentradi weren't clones bred for war for hundreds of thousands of years... get a grip, Sheryl. sigh.

Originally Posted by ickem

Well, the thing is that it's not like Alto is really an ass, but more that he just doesn't know how to deal with people very well. He obviously cares when things are serious, but, like in episode 6 with Sheryl's weak moment, he tries to defuse things with brusque comments instead of trying to comfort the person involved. He's a lot more comfortable with both Sheryl and Ranka now, so if they needed some support I'm sure he would come through for them. That goes for any of the people that have entered into his circle of friends actually.

You're right; Alto has come a long way. In simplest terms, Sheryl... still has a long way to go, I think. Of course, I could be totally wrong...

[Tak]

Originally Posted by stray

Ok, that could qualify as an equal character development on the Alto front. This rumor didn't come from anyplace ending in 'ch', the Chinese BBS'es, or... really any of the usual sources that never get anything right, did it?

Came from Japanese boards.

- Tak

[magnuskn]

Argh, why must you begin such an interesting discussion while I am sleeping?

Originally Posted by Teletha

You seem to think Sheryl likes Alto only for what he can do for her and for his support, which has never once been shown. He's never done much for her at all, but she still likes him. I think you are underestimating Alto. He might be flippant about some things, but this type of thing? No, he won't be. Like Tak mentioned, even Hikaru got a freaking clue when he saw what Misa was going through in DYRL.

I agree on this. While he tends to be brusque, one can definitely see how his feelings have deepened since episode 5, culminating in the interruptus-by-Michael scene in episode 16. I mean, seriously, what do you all think would have happened, had Michael and Cathy not interrupted in the exact critical moment?

Or what would have probably happened on Gallia IV, if things hadn´t turned out the way they did?

There is definitely momentum on Sheryls side, because Rankas supermove somehow... fizzled out after two episodes.

Originally Posted by stray

That stuff would fly when "watashi wa Sheryl Nome!" was in full effect, but now? Galaxy is still unaccounted for, Grace stabbed her in the back as an abandoned experiment (and tried to kill her), Ranka overshadowed her career, who happens to be the person the guy she likes is leaning towards over her in the love department. And she just might be a clone. At the end of the day, no matter how much Alto could be sympathetic to that... he'd still probably be thinking about Ranka, in the back of his mind.

After last episode I´d dispute that. As I said above, the whole thing with him being so taken with Ranka seems to have fizzled out after a few eps, and we get to a almost completely asexual conversation when he is alone in her room with her.

It´s almost as if the writers are somehow pushing back the whole romance deal on Rankas side, because there were quite a lot of "She´s still a little girl" flags in this last episode. Her room, her behaviour during the conversation ( pressing your giant doll against you like a shield? ), Moe-fangs, not to mention how Ozma at the end even declared "You are still a little girl".

I find this very, very curious. I´m ready to go with Westlo, who thinks these developments may be to set up a season two.

Ahem. Back to what you said, what I am seeing is more and more Alto getting into the "older brother" role with Ranka. So maybe he´d have her in the back of his mind during any serious conversation with Sheryl, but I think it would be more in the sense of "How do I avoid hurting Rankas feelings", as he definitely should be aware that both girls have feelings of some kind for him after episode 15.

Originally Posted by Tak

Yes, but it is also mentioned in some rumors that Sheryl might receive education from Alto's family in becoming a good wife!

As much as I doubt that, my friends, that is still something to anticipate.

- Tak

LOL, wut? No way, man, no way. How would that fit into the narrative at all? Next episode looks to be a serious one again ( after this weeks more silly one ). That would derail the whole tension they are trying to build up for it.

Whoever posted this crap is talking out of his ass.

BTW, when and where is that IRC chat? ^^

[ickem]

Originally Posted by Tak

Yes, but it is also mentioned in some rumors that Sheryl might receive education from Alto's family in becoming a good wife!

As much as I doubt that, my friends, that is still something to anticipate.

- Tak

The fools, the wife role will obviously be filled by Alto.

[Anh_Minh]

If Sheryl comes to him, I think he'll do what he can for her, but since it's not something he can shoot at, he'll have to resort to being just moral support. And his repertoire there is pretty much limited to "You can do it" and "Don't give up on your dream". I don't think he'll go out of his way to be a jerk about it, but, well, that's all he's got.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

If Sheryl comes to him, I think he'll do what he can for her, but since it's not something he can shoot at, he'll have to resort to being just moral support. And his repertoire there is pretty much limited to "You can do it" and "Don't give up on your dream". I don't think he'll go out of his way to be a jerk about it, but, well, that's all he's got.

Are you just down to trolling now? Geeze...

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Are you just down to trolling now? Geeze...

Yes, of course, because anyone that isn't highly supportive of Alto x Sheryl can be safely dismissed as a troll and/or a deluded idiot.

Alto was like that when Ranka had doubts about her talents, around the Miss Macross election. I seriously doubt he picked up any great motivational skills in the meantime. So if you expect him to say something great and original that will both make Sheryl swoon and kick her into action, my assessment of Alto's capabilities says you're going to be disappointed.

She may swoon and get fired up anyway - because she already likes him, and because she's a go-getter - but if she does, it'll be to something trite and noncommittal, and possibly a minimal show of support.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes, of course, because anyone that isn't highly supportive of Alto x Sheryl can be safely dismissed as a troll and/or a deluded idiot.

Alto was like that when Ranka had doubts about her talents, around the Miss Macross election. I seriously doubt he picked up any great motivational skills in the meantime. So if you expect him to say something great and original that will both make Sheryl swoon and kick her into action, my assessment of Alto's capabilities says you're going to be disappointed.

She may swoon and get fired up anyway - because she already likes him, and because she's a go-getter - but if she does, it'll be to something trite and noncommittal, and possibly a minimal show of support.

My assessment was independent of any shipper vibes. Obviously you have a very different opinion of Altos capabilities than I do. I´ll let it stand at that.

[mike_s_6]

Originally Posted by ickem

If thats' the case、then according to anime convention it can only be Alto's mom's kimono. Although this being Frontier, it can end up being a kimono that Alto used to wear for one of his roles.

Ahahaha ;D I'd love to see how a side by side photo, I bet Alto would be prettier than Sheryl!

[Westlo]

I'm struggling to see how they end this series in 8 episodes time with everything they have left do to and make the triangle work out... if this "rumor" of Alto's father being the one to find Sheryl (though why would he though?) is true it would go a long way.... since it would cover Sheryl's reaction to what she is, Alto's past and Sheryl and Alto development.

So much to cover in 8 episodes...

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Westlo

I'm struggling to see how they end this series in 8 episodes time with everything they have left do to and make the triangle work out... if this "rumor" of Alto's father being the one to find Sheryl (though why would he though?) is true it would go a long way.... since it would cover Sheryl's reaction to what she is, Alto's past and Sheryl and Alto development.

So much to cover in 8 episodes...

Yeah, indeed. Didn´t you want to make a long post in the speculation thread? Still waiting to see what you think over there.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Westlo

I'm struggling to see how they end this series in 8 episodes time with everything they have left do to and make the triangle work out... if this "rumor" of Alto's father being the one to find Sheryl (though why would he though?) is true it would go a long way.... since it would cover Sheryl's reaction to what she is, Alto's past and Sheryl and Alto development.

So much to cover in 8 episodes...

Well, lets take whatever that is being posted on the Japanese forums with a grain of salt. Although realistically, I don't see why Alto's father would not try to save her. I mean, if he witnessed someone, regardless who he or she is, collapsed in front of him, why wouldn't he help?

- Tak