2010-02-11, 11:58 | Link #6042 | |
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Also the detective authority says that upon inspection Battler wouldnt mistake a dead body for a real one, so for George its completely inadmissible that Battler wouldnt see that the corpse is dead, and for Kumasawa/Gohda, he clearly saw their corpses hanging and their dead faces. Now about the Kanon thing, i think you are trying to hard. The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself! A different person cannot claim his name! It clearly states that in the game there is only one Kanon. Also for the logic problem with Kinzo: Red could refer to the game as a whole, and not just the game board of the serial murders, this include the flashbacks as well. So if Kinzo state os death is important and relevant for the story it can be confirmed and counted whenever its needed. Last edited by Blazemaker; 2010-02-11 at 12:11. |
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2010-02-11, 12:43 | Link #6043 | |
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I also agree that the extreme Shannon = Kanon version of the Shkanon theory doesn't work. However, a version of theory has to exist that explain why Battler never sees them together in the first four episodes. It should also explain why only one of them can attain love in their relationship while the other cannot. I'll stick with my theory for now which provides a solution to all of those things.
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2010-02-11, 15:17 | Link #6045 | ||||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Either way, Shannon could still have been alive when the adults found her. Quote:
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You cannot simply "grow" a clone to be a perfect replica of, say, Eva Ushiromiya. Clones are born and develop in the same way that ordinary humans do... the only difference is that they are genetically identical to the original donor. They're not grown in a test tube, they need a surrogate mother. Although you could, theoretically, get a sample of Eva's DNA in 1985 and clone her, there's no guarantee that the resulting individual would act or even look exactly like Eva, due to the influences of upbringing in the development of personality and physical characteristics. (She might not be as much of a bitch, or might be overweight, etc.) Furthermore, in 1998, she'd be 13 years old, even younger than Ange. This doesn't even begin to account for the degenerative problems most clones inevitably have, especially before the technology was really understood, which it would not have been in 1985/6. So even if Kinzo had managed to make a clone of his daughter, not only is there no guarantee that she'd survive past the age of four, but there's also no reason for her to exist whatsoever, for the sake of the story or otherwise. (Disclaimer: I am not a geneticist and as such much of this information may be somewhat inaccurate.) |
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2010-02-11, 17:32 | Link #6046 | |
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2010-02-11, 18:32 | Link #6047 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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...You know, I've said this before, and I'm not saying this about you, but a lot of the Anti-Shkannon stuff has always struck me as being rather reactionary... not that I entirely support the theory myself anymore, but I think people need to actually think about the theory before rejecting it out of hand. |
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2010-02-11, 19:28 | Link #6048 | ||||
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Get real. Cloning a complete human being in 1986 is completely ridiculous. There is no evidence that Kinzo cloned anyone at all, and a claim as fantastic as "Kinzo had magic cloning machines need a ridiculous amount of proof. Saying "Shannon and Kanon look up to Genji" does not lead to cloning machines by only the most extreme stretches of the imagination. Quote:
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2010-02-11, 19:30 | Link #6049 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Spoiler for space:
This is only a theory though. It may be true in some games, but not all of them.
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2010-02-11, 19:38 | Link #6050 |
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Regarding ep4, I want to stress that there is nothing that says everyone is already dead by the time "Beatrice" calls and/or meets with Battler. The only corpse Battler even sees before then is George; he sees Gohda and Kumasawa "hanging," but there's no indication they'd been shot yet. Let's be very generous and say all could be faking/not dead yet, so that's 0-3 corpses seen. Then there's "Beatrice" who is very clearly alive at that point, though she must die thereafter.
Battler then goes inside and sees seven people in the dining room, the "first twilight" victims + Maria. I'll assume he's not mistaken here so that's 7-10 corpses. Kanon's death cannot be temporally confirmed until such time as Battler finds a ninth body (Kanon died ninth, so once nine dead people turn up we know Kanon's dead sometime before then). After that, Battler doesn't find anyone else until the next morning when he finds Jessica, Kyrie, Krauss, Shannon, Nanjo, Kumasawa, and Gohda. Though both Kyrie and Jessica's phone calls suggested their imminent deaths, they don't prove a thing. As far as we know, all of those people could have been alive until the morning of the 5th. Most likely they weren't, but it wouldn't altogether surprise me if more than three people were alive at the time of the meeting with "Beatrice." |
2010-02-11, 20:40 | Link #6051 | |
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2010-02-11, 21:20 | Link #6052 |
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Kyrie and Jessica were in the mansion. He could have found them at any time; it's only chance that he never entered their rooms. Krauss was found fairly close to the back door, and Nanjo & Shannon were a good distance away. Battler could probably be relied on to wait until day to look for the last two at least.
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2010-02-11, 21:56 | Link #6053 |
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But the fact that he didn't find them is significant. He basically didn't see anybody at all between midnight and 6am. So not only do we not know if they were dead, we can't say much about the order. Really, about the only thing we can say is that Kyrie died 10th or later but cannot have been the last alive (not counting Battler I mean, the last alive before he was alone).
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2010-02-11, 22:06 | Link #6054 | ||
Homo Ludens
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"The butler did it" would have then transcended clichedom. It would become a reverse cliche. |
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2010-02-11, 22:39 | Link #6055 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2009
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He was saying it about game pieces saying something is a corpse that isn't. There's a WORLD of difference, as Japanese is very explicit that 'corpse' means 'dead body', just like in English. I believe Klashikari already posted on this awhile back. To change the definition of that in red, for one, completely defeats the purpose of the red (to give you clues), and two "who says a lock has to be a lock" "who says a door has to be a door" etc. And I think about the theory. That's why I know it's absolutely asinine. As I said, the amount of inter-conspiracy among people on the island required to make it work is enormous. Either that, or they somehow fooled Natsuhi, Krauss, etc for almost three years when you have to consider work schedule conflicts, meetings, etc. For instance, I REALLY don't think Natsuhi would trust a servant she never could get into a meeting while Shannon is there, one-winged eagle or not, with the "Kinzo-is-dead" secret. The only reason Shkanon is so popular is because it's a theory that's incredibly hard to break due to the nature of it. For instance, even in the Ep6 theory, Shkanon has to be able to essentially switch personalities at-will for it to work. Of course all the closed rooms are meaningless if you do that. It's the same validity as 'everyone is in on it and is covering for everyone else so that they have alibis when they really don't'. It's a cheap arguing gimmick that's impossible to refute but in the end just clouds everything over. Even if you wanted to bring up 'oh this trick is so useful!'... it's not, unless you know about red text... which people in the real world shouldn't. Real-world wise, all it could do is give Shannon/Kanon alibis with the other. Except they die separately almost every time, so even that doesn't work. So, I ask you, aside from getting around red text- what's the logic behind Shkanon? Because I really can't think of any. Last edited by tcaz2; 2010-02-11 at 22:52. |
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2010-02-11, 22:54 | Link #6056 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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I've really become interested in George culprit theories now. I have no idea why... and granted he dies in almost every episode, but it just seems to hold so much love. Plus I think George would make for an epic end. Ryukishi said he was going for a bitter sweet ending so I think it works. Especially when George talks about making his kingdom all the time, which makes him look like a king peice with maybe Shannon as the Queen. Plus most of George's back story seems to come from Shannon and not George himself so you don't know much about him in episode 1-4, which you can solve the mystery by.
Spoiler for george lines:
one reason I like this culprit theory is that in every episode so far a Mother of the Cousins is framed as the culprit. In episode 1 and 5 it's Natsuhi. In episode 2 it's Rosa. In episode 3 it's Eva and Kyrie. In episode 4 it's Kyrie. So I think a George end would be the opposite of the Higurashi end with Takano.
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2010-02-11, 22:59 | Link #6057 |
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If George is anything I think he's either a mastermind or a "handler." His job is to keep the survivors under control. A wolf among sheep, so to speak. There's really no way he could be a murderer himself in an overwhelming majority of cases, but there's no reason a mastermind/handler really has to commit any.
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2010-02-11, 23:06 | Link #6058 | |
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Another theory is that since Kinzo is dead (assuming all the servants except Gohda know) That any of the relatives or cousins could act as the Master of any of the furniture. So say somehow Shannon or someone let it slip.... You get the idea.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-02-11 at 23:22. |
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2010-02-12, 00:21 | Link #6059 | |
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Location: HK, China
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The whole point of cloning is just crazy, however, I think it explain better for what happened in the anime where the men-in-black were shot almost simultaneously. This really cast doubt on how on earth Amakusa could have done it. The scene showing Ange confronting Eva was also quite strange, and that was no indication of Ange's death at all but Ange gave a coup de grace upon Eva. Did Ange truly die in 1998? Who killed Kasumi and the men-in-black? What does it mean by Eva showing up in the end? People claimed that Ange was imagining things, Amakusa killing Ange in the end. Well, few of us could explain that scene satisfactorily. BTW, I did not say Kinzo cloned Eva in 1986, I just meant that he left the equipment and the method in Kwadorian, then Eva got hold of it and clone herself sometimes latter. Obvious problems are how come Kinzo developed the means to speed up the growth of person, and the problem of giving the clone same memory and personality. --------------- Ah, Kyrie seemed to not knowing Rudolf was planning with his siblings on extorting Krauss in EP1 and EP3, besides EP2. And IIRC, also in EP4
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Last edited by ijriims; 2010-02-12 at 00:48. |
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2010-02-12, 00:37 | Link #6060 | |
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BTW, I said Shannon and Kanon assist Genji and Kinzo, but I did not say Genji was the mastermind. Genji himself was also an accomplice and he asked Shannon and Kanon to assist the mastermind, that's it what I was thinking. I just wonder even though Sayo and Yoshiya were both orphans, that does not mean that they were furniture. Especially for Yoshiya, he became a servant for Ushiromiya family for only 2 years, and at the age of a rebellious teemager, I wonder what sort of education or indoctrination could turn him into thinking that he was less than human and was just a furniture. Of course, you could argue that it was all the result of this screwed education of Kinzo and Genji. But basing on all these episodes, it seemed that only these two young servants knew about Kinzo's death (as they bore one-winged symbol) but not the other servants coming from the orphanage. Otherwise, all the other servants with the "on" as part of the codename should have also known about the death of Kinzo, then there was no reason why Natsuhi must schedule Shannon to be on duty on family meeting (considering it was said that Shannon was not as smart as some other "on" servants)
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