2012-01-19, 17:52 | Link #27161 |
Reading your tale. :)
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Just out of sight, eating popcorn. >:D
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Well hold on, we can still use the text even if the author makes up stuff on the spot. Would you agree with everything Nasu's said about his works? Or the opinions of Jhonen Vasquez? AT can't be reasonably blamed if R07 took a solid theory which a lot of us used in our reasoning and tossed it for bull feces. Why reason at all if every hurdle could be solved with "LOLinsanity"?! We might as well just copy-paste the facts and leave only the surface interpretations. We'll be EP7 Tea Party!Kyrie. Intelligent, analytical looking morons tripping over ourselves since we can't even try to make an unfavorable situation work in our advantage in the long haul. I don't want that. So to hell with R07's after-the-fact crap sandwich. I'll take the possibly non-ridiculously interpretable text soup with a side of reasoning toast, thankyouverymuch.jpg.
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2012-01-19, 18:11 | Link #27162 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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2012-01-19, 18:17 | Link #27163 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Ryuukishi did not say "When golden butterflies appear in the story, it means someone's going insane." He said "If someone were to really see golden butterflies, it would mean they're going insane." Since no one saw golden butterflies in reality there is no insanity, okay?
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2012-01-19, 18:24 | Link #27164 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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So, back to Genji, it look it all due to Battler being drunk... Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-01-19 at 18:42. |
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2012-01-19, 18:33 | Link #27165 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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2012-01-19, 18:50 | Link #27166 | |||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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As for Erika having a perspective in the actual story, I have given some evidence that a Meta-Character (as a Reader-whatever that may mean) can affect a story, which establishes that what we see is somehow edited from it's original form in a way that is not made explicitly clear to us. What I can't provide much evidence for is the exact nature of the "Reader's" effect, but if I suppose that it can cause a Player to mistake what their Piece's observations are, which I don't think is all that big of a jump, then it can answer a very central and persistent problem to Umineko. That's why I like the idea that it can. Quote:
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Basically, I don't think there is any of the insidious kind of embellishment that we are used to, but it's not like there was a complete surgical removal of it from the story altogether either. I can't think of any such examples. |
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2012-01-19, 19:06 | Link #27167 | |
The True Culprit
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2012-01-19, 19:10 | Link #27168 | |||
The True Culprit
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See? The whole concept of Readers changing the text is so damn nebulous, vague, self-contradictory, and convoluted that I honestly don't really see much merit in the EP8 interchange. If anything it seems like something Ryukishi made up at the last minute, to me. Quote:
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2012-01-19, 19:24 | Link #27169 |
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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Oh? This sounds interesting. I don't remember much of this, though. The earliest thing we know of her past, as far as I remember, is that she helped raise Beatrice II. I don't think she comes into the story at all, at any point before that.
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2012-01-19, 19:28 | Link #27170 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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What are those statements though, that you feel contradict the text in the novels? |
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2012-01-19, 20:57 | Link #27171 |
The True Culprit
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I'd have to dig around for them specifically, but one that sticks out in his memory is a particularly sexist statement where he said that women only cared about feelings and men only cared about status.
Even though this is contradicted by characters such as Kinzo, George, Natsuhi, Eva...
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2012-01-19, 21:06 | Link #27173 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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2012-01-19, 21:16 | Link #27174 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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But certainly, both her age and the title of being the original Beatrice, as well as the fact that we don't know anything about her life before Beatrice II came into the picture, leaves plenty of room for her to be Beatrice I, or someone who had a significant connection to Beatrice I. And I don't know of anything that necessarily denies this, so. |
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2012-01-19, 22:09 | Link #27177 | |
Reading your tale. :)
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Just out of sight, eating popcorn. >:D
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@Toku I herped and got mad over miscommunication. It's like you're going to make a PB & J sandwich, but you didn't have any PB, so you couldn't have made a PB & J. Instead of trying to figure out the truth behind the illusions, we don't really have to try thinking about anything. Instead of going with bomb theory to explain the endings for the eps, let's say at the end of Ep 2, Rosa and Maria drowned trying to swim away from the island. Battler was drunk and fell off the Beatrice cliff. Genji sat there like a robot and starved...Yeah. But I suppose this avenue is closed. About Genji, I think he did kinda disagree with Yasu's actions, and at the end, he tried to lead a drunk Battler to Kuwadorian to repent, but failed.
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2012-01-19, 22:15 | Link #27178 | |
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2012-01-19, 23:08 | Link #27180 |
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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No, that was the original Beatrice Castigilloni who died giving birth to Beatrice 2. Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo probably all helped to raise Beatrice 2, but we never had any clues about Kumasawa being Beatrice or having anything to do with inheriting a title herself. Virgilia can, of course, because that's the fantasy side of the story.
Kumasawa did inspire Yasu, however (who became the 3rd Beatrice later) with her tons of novels. She also passed on various rumors and superstitious beliefs, IIRC. Virgilia was definitely shown to be Beatrice's teacher, but it was mentioned in early EP3 when she appeared before a young Beatrice who called Virgilia, "Beatrice." (Which Beatrice this is is debatable; it's probably an amalgamated version that Meta Beatrice showed to Battler.) But, I imagine there are tons of things like this that Ryukishi would want to retcon. Especially that unlocked door in the boiler room, which he DID seem to retcon for EP3 of the anime and manga where they showed that it was blocked. 8) Virgilia, Ronove and maybe Gaap was supposedly created by Ryukishi (he called them the Suspicios Trio or something in his recent interview, I think... ) to help the readers after people nearly gave up at the end of EP2. He realized that he needed to create some other characters who could give subtle clues to Battler, and by extension to us, so that we could understand some basic concepts like Unreliable Narrator, etc. I imagine when he first introduced her he started planning for her to have carried the title of Beatrice inbetween the two real Beatrices or something but that plan didn't really fit later on. (Otherwise we'd have Kinzo x Kumasawa shippers by now... 8) ) |
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