Gundam 00 Within the Franchise : Discussion and Comparison

[kiramuro]

Originally Posted by hamstar

I said i got into medical school. I didn't say I was attending it right now. I have a whole year off until i start so there no contradiction.

Fair Enough.

To be fair I just didn't like your overtly pejorative tone towards Seeds fans. I started watching Gundam fairly late (around 02 when I was 18) so my introduction to the Gundamverse was Seed so it'll always hold a special place in my mind. After viewing Seed I went back and watched most of the UC. To me both of them have their strengths and weaknesses. Both of them were at least entertaining on some level.

I just don't really get why people are comparing 00 to seed when the two series aren't familiar at all thematically or even morphologically. Honestly 00 should be compared to Wing if one needs to compare it to other gundam series at all.

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

There's also the possibility that the creator wants said character dead, planned it that way from the beginning, and is pissed at the fanbase for not accepting the death as that basically means they think they can tell the creators own story better than the actual creator. That's bascially telling the creator "I don't care about your story I just like that one character and want to only see them"

Not everyone is a complete sell out like Fukuda, that puts ratings and keeping the fanbase happy above everything else. This director seems like he wants to tell his story and doesn't really care if its not exactly what the fans want.

Another case Joss Whedon. The creator of two extremely successful franchises and one small one with a cult fanbase. He kills characters all the time, sometimes extremely popular ones at that. The fans send him hate mail and complaints and all that drama. Does he care? Nope. It's his story and he's giving you "what you need, not what you want". His response to killing off one of the most popular characters of Firefly in the movie. "Good. I'm glad your upset he's gone. It means I did my job."

Well that's a very hit or miss way to go about things. Sure, it worked for George RR Martin with Song of Fire and Ice that I got bored of by page 269 of game of thrones, but a creator that says "fuck you, let me tell my story" runs the risk of telling it to nobody at all. And furthermore, if the ratings tank, then so do your chances of keeping your job.

The world doesn't run on a good story. It runs on money. If telling a good story is the backbone of your project's success, then yes, by all means, go and be Final Fantasy. However, if punching your fanbase in the gut is making your ratings tank and making you receive hate mail, then sure, go for your niche cult. You'll be out of a job soon enough and you won't have any more emotionally gripping stories to tell while all of the sellout directors that cheapen death will be out there feeding the masses with their cool characters that people don't want to see let go.

[Astrana]

Ok let's face it, lockon isn't dead he is severe injured floating in space and then was found by some space advanturer. When he wake up he lost his memory, then he found a new uber Over powered gundam and fighting for some organization. Thats when Saji became Dynames pilot and they fight eeach other, and then Lockon regain his memory and became friends join CB again and fight together lol.... series end

gundam 00: Destiny....

someone want to continue on??

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by Astrana

Ok let's face it, lockon isn't dead he is severe injured floating in space and then was found by some space advanturer. When he wake up he lost his memory, then he found a new uber Over powered gundam and fighting for some organization. Thats when Nena became Dynames pilot and they fight eeach other, and then Lockon regain his memory and became friends join CB again and fight together lol....

FIXED FOR GREAT FANSERVICE.

But yes, I agree!!

[Var]

Originally Posted by kiramuro

Fair Enough.

To be fair I just didn't like your overtly pejorative tone towards Seeds fans. I started watching Gundam fairly late (around 02 when I was 18) so my introduction to the Gundamverse was Seed so it'll always hold a special place in my mind. After viewing Seed I went back and watched most of the UC. To me both of them have their strengths and weaknesses. Both of them were at least entertaining on some level.

I just don't really get why people are comparing 00 to seed when the two series aren't familiar at all thematically or even morphologically. Honestly 00 should be compared to Wing if one needs to compare it to other gundam series at all.

The problem of tone between fans (of either 00 or SEED) is that you can't really blame one person for it. As both sides flame each other to oblivion. Just as he talks negatively of SEED fans, SEED fans talk negatively of him. Its a circle that's simply to be ignored, as is the tone. Why did I even write this?

SEED is compared to 00 due to time of existance. 00 to Wing is also pretty stretched. The plot of Wing was about one man tricking the world into giving him all the power to change the world. 00 is more about the individual struggle of four people to change the world while bearing the weight of their actions. While I could call them similar they really aren't. But I'll agree its closer than SEED.

[hamstar]

yeah i agree, 00 should be compared to wing because of similarity but it also shares some similarity with other series as well. Also the way 00 is so epic people want to compare it to their own favourite series which just so happens to be seed. I think seed is decent (i watched it myself!) just I think very lowly of destiny. I feel in many ways destiny cheapens the integrity of seed.

SEED is good

SEED DESTINY is trash. I'm sorry I will always feel this way about it no matter how many years may go by.

[kiramuro]

Originally Posted by Var

Yes that Alien. Also, the 'scientific' reviews were such for the time it was made and for the basics of science. There are so many physics based issues with the show that... well its funny.


Anyway, this is going way off topic.

Oh man if you think Alien had funny physics issue then any gundam show should have killed you by now because you can't stop laughing.

Starting with the UC colonies spinning on its minor axis of inertia with no counter rotating section the list of issues could fill the Library of congress.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Astrana

Ok let's face it, lockon isn't dead he is severe injured floating in space and then was found by some space advanturer. When he wake up he lost his memory, then he found a new uber Over powered gundam and fighting for some organization. Thats when Saji became Dynames pilot and they fight eeach other, and then Lockon regain his memory and became friends join CB again and fight together lol.... series end

gundam 00: Destiny....

someone want to continue on??

Then stranglet matter impacts the viewers brain and destroys the world. That's how it continues/ends.

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by Var

The problem of tone between fans (of either 00 or SEED) is that you can't really blame one person for it. As both sides flame each other to oblivion. Just as he talks negatively of SEED fans, SEED fans talk negatively of him. Its a circle that's simply to be ignored, as is the tone. Why did I even write this?

SEED is compared to 00 due to time of existance. 00 to Wing is also pretty stretched. The plot of Wing was about one man tricking the world into giving him all the power to change the world. 00 is more about the individual struggle of four people to change the world while bearing the weight of their actions. While I could call them similar they really aren't. But I'll agree its closer than SEED.

I don't flame the fans. I don't flame anything. In fact, I simply challenge people to open their eyes to the entire franchise that is Gundam as a whole and all of the ridiculous elements that we've gotten so used to and desensitized to that something so trivial as character resurrections makes our disbelief go shooting out the window.

[hamstar]

Originally Posted by Astrana

Ok let's face it, lockon isn't dead he is severe injured floating in space and then was found by some space advanturer. When he wake up he lost his memory, then he found a new uber Over powered gundam and fighting for some organization. Thats when Saji became Dynames pilot and they fight eeach other, and then Lockon regain his memory and became friends join CB again and fight together lol.... series end

if and when that happens, I will cut my wrists.

[Var]

Originally Posted by kiramuro

Oh man if you think Alien had funny physics issue then any gundam show should have killed you by now because you can't stop laughing.

Starting with the UC colonies spinning on its minor axis of inertia with no counter rotating section the list of issues could fill the Library of congress.

Oh UC series made me laugh quite a good bit. I was honestly balling over some elements. Pretty pink explosion, for instance, made me smirk everytime.

Everything till 00 has been a fun ride for me. Much like Alien 1-5 (counting AvP). 00 is a bit different since they did a decent job. I mean some elements are just silly, solar power? wtf. But they covered inertia and certain physics elements pretty well, for a Gundam show anyway.

00 also has a more 'grown' up plot. Its no LoTR but its far more than SEED.

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by hamstar

if and when that happens, I will cut my wrists.

Don't worry. It won't. The chance of Saji becoming a gundam pilot is pretty much nil--especially not of the Dynames

As for Lockon reviving...well...that's another story!

[kiramuro]

Originally Posted by Var

Oh UC series made me laugh quite a good bit. I was honestly balling over some elements. Pretty pink explosion, for instance, made me smirk everytime.

Everything till 00 has been a fun ride for me. Much like Alien 1-5 (counting AvP). 00 is a bit different since they did a decent job. I mean some elements are just silly, solar power? wtf. But they covered inertia and certain physics elements pretty well, for a Gundam show anyway.

00 also has a more 'grown' up plot. Its no LoTR but its far more than SEED.

Yeah for the moment lets forget the fact that usable fusion is a technology that is likely to be created in the future the whole solar power through space elevator setup in 00 is pretty ludicrous. If I am designing a scheme to harness solar power I would use satellites in Sun-Synchronous orbit where the exposure to sun is 24/7 and the power collected can be transferred to the surface by microwaves with minimal loss. This method is much much cheaper and more effective.

The space elevator design itself is ridiculous although I am basing this on current theories. 00 is probably paying a tribute to Konstantin Tsiolkovsky who envisioned a tower like structure. But the whole thing is like a really fucking long beam. Structurally speaking it would require some sort of fantasy material (even carbon nanotubes wouldn't meet the requirements for the design in 00) and some sort of nonexistent vibration damping technology. A straw can start to vibrate you bend it a bit and let it go. For a really really long straw (a basic model for the elevator) there is a very likely chance that disturbances in the atmosphere or lunar gravity effects could initiate some sort of vibrational mode that could be devastating although I am just speculating here. BTW most of the modern skyscrapers has vibrational damping technology put in place.

The theoretical space elevator designs that have been proposed recently all involves a thin tether made of carbon nanotube and with it hanging down from a counterweight in geosynchronous orbit.

[hamstar]

ive read about how orbital ring around the planet could be used for weather control. That was a few years ago and I cant remember all the details.

[kiramuro]

Originally Posted by hamstar

ive read about how orbital ring around the planet could be used for weather control. That was a few years ago and I cant remember all the details.

If you are talking about Paul Birch's elevator idea (scroll down until you get to Orbital rings system and Jacob's ladders) then that would've bee pretty cool to see it animated in Gundam 00. Too bad they went for the old Rusky's (Tsiolkovsky) unfeasible idea.

Still a space elevator should be designed only for hauling cargo. It should not be used for solar power transference at all when cheaper and better schemes are available. I don't like how Gundam 00 tied the two together.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Well that's a very hit or miss way to go about things. Sure, it worked for George RR Martin with Song of Fire and Ice that I got bored of by page 269 of game of thrones

Now, I am amazed at how our tastes differ. Song of Fire and Ice is my absolute personal favorite series of books so far. This is basically why I appreciate the stories that bear the great signs of tragic in the end. Like Zeta in which many characters has died in the last episode, with one protagonist being mentally crushed, and the other's fate left for uncertainty. You see, I agree with the fact that the creators should watch their stories not to be spoiled both by the lame permanent deaths AND by numerous returns. It's just I think that it was well carried out in the first series of SEED, as well as in Song of Fire and Ice and, so far, in Gundam 00.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

The world doesn't run on a good story. It runs on money. If telling a good story is the backbone of your project's success, then yes, by all means, go and be Final Fantasy. However, if punching your fanbase in the gut is making your ratings tank and making you receive hate mail, then sure, go for your niche cult. You'll be out of a job soon enough and you won't have any more emotionally gripping stories to tell while all of the sellout directors that cheapen death will be out there feeding the masses with their cool characters that people don't want to see let go.

True, but it is the fact that makes us realize how easy it is to fall into the trap of ridiculing something that might've been a truly powerful story. Fukuda somehow managed to make it almost perfect in SEED, with its innocence + badass-Gundam-OMFG-action + a surprisingly moving plot. Then he spoiled it in Destiny (which to me is not as bad as some people say, but I understand their negative approach at times). So far Gundam 00 is on its good road towards more satisfying a more "grown-up" audience. Who do not need or do not like infantile elements and may not understand the "sugar teenager" approach of productions like SEED. Those people would love Song of Fire and Ice, but discard Harry Potter in a whim.

Me? I'd just want to conclude my post by mentioning that I like both series. In case of the fore-mentioned "fantasy" books I prefer the more mature one. The Song.... But in case of Gundam shows, SEED still wins with Gundam 00 in my eyes. But that's mainly because 00 is still not finished. If they carry it out the way they did for a couple of last episodes, I can see myself ending up with three favorite Gundam shows and total inability to decide which is better.

[dom33]

@DG86 fanbase? money? lockon coming back? tch..tch. ch
please mizushima isn't influenced by the fanbase trust me edxwinry was the most popular pairing of FMA and did it happen in the series?hell no! also how could the hyaku be an akatsuki imitator when it's around 15 years older then akatsuki?

there is a resmblance to wing though, (i recall sunrise even admitting it) I'll write more later.

[Var]

Originally Posted by kiramuro

Yeah for the moment lets forget the fact that usable fusion is a technology that is likely to be created in the future the whole solar power through space elevator setup in 00 is pretty ludicrous. If I am designing a scheme to harness solar power I would use satellites in Sun-Synchronous orbit where the exposure to sun is 24/7 and the power collected can be transferred to the surface by microwaves with minimal loss. This method is much much cheaper and more effective.

The space elevator design itself is ridiculous although I am basing this on current theories. 00 is probably paying a tribute to Konstantin Tsiolkovsky who envisioned a tower like structure. But the whole thing is like a really fucking long beam. Structurally speaking it would require some sort of fantasy material (even carbon nanotubes wouldn't meet the requirements for the design in 00) and some sort of nonexistent vibration damping technology. A straw can start to vibrate you bend it a bit and let it go. For a really really long straw (a basic model for the elevator) there is a very likely chance that disturbances in the atmosphere or lunar gravity effects could initiate some sort of vibrational mode that could be devastating although I am just speculating here. BTW most of the modern skyscrapers has vibrational damping technology put in place.

The theoretical space elevator designs that have been proposed recently all involves a thin tether made of carbon nanotube and with it hanging down from a counterweight in geosynchronous orbit.

The elevator is part of the wtf moments of Gundam 00, I knew that full well as I've worked with nanotubes and dallied with the ideas of space elevators. Lunar gravity is much less a threat than the simple rotation of the Earth and the torque that would create on a big stick elevator as in 00. That thing should, for lack of a better word, be snapping like a pocky stick. Also, you have to take the e-carbon with a grain of salt. Its a 300 year from now synthetic material. Given what we can create now, via nanotubes, imagine what we could create in 300 years time (assuming humanity hasn't killed itself off due to sheer stupidity). Especially when we, not like the idiots in 00 universe, use Tokamaks instead of Solar Power Rings. Terra watts of energy will really fix alot of those energy problems Physics and Engeneering runs into.

As for the set up of the rings. Due to the earth's axial rotation, the way they are set up in 00 would allow for 100% exposure to sunlight. They are far enough from the earth that even as it rotates light will reach the cells. That is, at least, how it appears to be designed. Look at 23 for the zoomed out shot. If they did manage this, said design would be better than a Sun-Sync orbit as the distance for energy to travel would be less, and less energy will be disipated (as heat) to the coldness of space. They're also using microwaves to channel that energy... Oy.

Originally Posted by kiramuro

If you are talking about Paul Birch's elevator idea (scroll down until you get to Orbital rings system and Jacob's ladders) then that would've bee pretty cool to see it animated in Gundam 00. Too bad they went for the old Rusky's (Tsiolkovsky) unfeasible idea.

Still a space elevator should be designed only for hauling cargo. It should not be used for solar power transference at all when cheaper and better schemes are available. I don't like how Gundam 00 tied the two together.

Honestly, any current idea is not feasible. Nanotubes are difficult to create, even harder to create the form you want, and expensive due to the energy demand to create them. (Unless of course you just burn a lot of things)

I assumed that in the 00 universe Fission occured but that, due to mechs, Fusion did not. There has really been no indication of fusion or even a hydrogen bomb.

Its foolish of them, from our PoV, to use the elevator for two purposes, but at the same time, it would be even dumber to create a second elevator to just channel energy... Microwaves ... Not to mention economically binding. So while the general idea is idiotic, the subsequent usage is not as bad.

[Demongod86]

And the new pile of catgirl corpses grows larger by the minute!

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by kiramuro

Oh man if you think Alien had funny physics issue then any gundam show should have killed you by now because you can't stop laughing.

Starting with the UC colonies spinning on its minor axis of inertia with no counter rotating section the list of issues could fill the Library of congress.

Hm? Mike Oneal cylinders are physics-friendly; NASA itself has looked into the concept. While Gundam surely didn't include a detailed list of every minor feature that would be included, and had to make some changes for artistic effects (such as speeding up the rotation time of a colony: the actual time is too little for audience effect), but the physics behind the UC colonies is sound.

Originally Posted by Var

The elevator is part of the wtf moments of Gundam 00, I knew that full well as I've worked with nanotubes and dallied with the ideas of space elevators. Lunar gravity is much less a threat than the simple rotation of the Earth and the torque that would create on a big stick elevator as in 00. That thing should, for lack of a better word, be snapping like a pocky stick.

Which is why the elevators are above the equator. The orbital elevators aren't towers built from ground up: they're structurally more similar to tethers that dangle from the space station (which we've seen has the necessary counterweight) straight down to the anchor point on the ground. By being on the equator, they don't suffer from the torque that they would if they were elsewhere. While the massive tower design is a bit fanciful, the physics behind an orbital tether (which is what a orbital tower is) are already understood. NASA even has an annual contest where college programs around the nation research possible tether climbers.

If you don't mind slogging through it, the wiki entry for orbital elevators is actually useful. You'll also see that the concept has been around for over a century.

Also, you have to take the e-carbon with a grain of salt. Its a 300 year from now synthetic material. Given what we can create now, via nanotubes, imagine what we could create in 300 years time (assuming humanity hasn't killed itself off due to sheer stupidity).

E-Carbon is just the composite metal of the series, nothing more and nothing less. About the only difference between it and Gundarium is that the technobabble benefits and such are different.

Honestly, any current idea is not feasible. Nanotubes are difficult to create, even harder to create the form you want, and expensive due to the energy demand to create them. (Unless of course you just burn a lot of things)

And once upon a time, steel was too uneconomical to consider. Then the Carnegie process was invented. The production of nanomaterials is an infant science, but is already lightyears ahead of where it was a decade ago. It will improve, just like it already has.

I assumed that in the 00 universe Fission occured but that, due to mechs, Fusion did not. There has really been no indication of fusion or even a hydrogen bomb.

Sure there has. It happened in 1944 AD, above Hiroshima, Japan. The only difference between the 00 universe and our universe is 300 years and the plot-physics that make giant robots possible. It was established well before the series came out, and then early in the series, that 00 takes place in the AD calender we ourselves live in.

Its foolish of them, from our PoV, to use the elevator for two purposes, but at the same time, it would be even dumber to create a second elevator to just channel energy... Microwaves ... Not to mention economically binding. So while the general idea is idiotic, the subsequent usage is not as bad.

Considering how the AEU can field solar-energy MS without a completed tower, it's safe to assume that energy can be transfered without the towers themselves, even if not as efficiently. What the towers really seem to be good for, besides construction and maintenance of the Ring, is bulk transit of construction materials for colonies. Which is what an orbital elevator is really good for: a long term cost-reduction for bulk transit into space. Orbital elevators will/would be more efficient for the movement of materials into space than the mass drivers of CE, let alone the rockets of UC. And that's what the Powers have been using the Towers for: colony construction.