Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Second Season - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[Nerroth]

Wouldn't the kill of the Memento Mori count on the list for the Cherudim?

It was kind of a big deal.

(If you stretched it, the loss of Lindt's ship could be counted, too.)

[LordStrike]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

If you ask me.. I think the Innovators are also sacrificial lambs along with CB because they aren't human. Humanity isn't about reading minds and having ridiculous names.

the way ic the innovators is like he needs some one that would make his plan a GO and he needed the person to last long that's why the long longevity of the innovators.

sadly the plan got twisted and is being carried on but not as it was originally planed ribbons has his own plan in the mix and agenda (that's what i believe).

[kiramuro]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That's partly the price you pay by having more adults in Gundam shows. Characters over 35-40years old have little room for character evolution.

You can't please everyone. If 00 had more teenage pilots, people will complain about how unrealistic it is. But by having adults running the show, 00 can't let anyone learn "life lessons". Can't have it both ways.

Actually my biggest problem with Graham is that he has degenerated into a really really lame incarnation of the archetypal Gundam "masked man" character. It's now my belief that Graham fits in more with Jerid from Zeta than with the likes of Char or Rau (now those two were real badasses). As I mentioned before I am getting tired of Graham and his silly antics. He has become a little annoying fly that is buzzing around and I wish Setsuna would just swat the little fucker.

[KiNA]

Originally Posted by Shiroth

If Andrei is to die in this series, then i at least hope before then he can clear things up with his Father. That looks to be one of the main issue's at the moment. The last scene of the preview looks to be a flashback of when he was a child, so i'm hoping that will give lead us to finding out how his Mother died, and why he blames the death on Sergei.

Sergei will die for Andrei in ep 17 .. waking him up. Andrei will die later .. Because Louise and Saji is canon.

[slaag]

Originally Posted by kiramuro

Actually my biggest problem with Graham is that he has degenerated into a really really lame incarnation of the archetypal Gundam "masked man" character. It's now my belief that Graham fits in more with Jerid from Zeta than with the likes of Char or Rau (now those two were real badasses). As I mentioned before I am getting tired of Graham and his silly antics. He has become a little annoying fly that is buzzing around and I wish Setsuna would just swat the little fucker.

Bushido and Ali are the only badass antagonists in the show. I wouldn't exactly call the Innovators badass. You don't need to have a purpose. Hell, Char was just as persistent in 0079.

[GN0010 Nosferatu]

Originally Posted by kiramuro

Actually my biggest problem with Graham is that he has degenerated into a really really lame incarnation of the archetypal Gundam "masked man" character. It's now my belief that Graham fits in more with Jerid from Zeta than with the likes of Char or Rau (now those two were real badasses). As I mentioned before I am getting tired of Graham and his silly antics. He has become a little annoying fly that is buzzing around and I wish Setsuna would just swat the little fucker.

[wingdarkness]

This is the kind of backlash that happens when you lead a horse to water and he finds out it's a bucket of morphine ...This was the episode that could have solidified Graham and slammed the haterade sippers like kiramuro...Unfortunately only hardcore Graham fans can defend the depth of his character at this point, but the lack of showcasing Graham vs. Setsuna in this episode gives the other side ample fuel...That's why this is my least favorite episode of S2...

[slaag]

This card tells me all I need to know about Graham's character. Think of him as the Harvey Dent of Gundam 00.

[mike_s_6]

Originally Posted by Fishfood1

shouldn't this go into some sort of general discussion thread instead of being on epi 16 discussion thread?

anyways... allelujah's kill count is too low, he needs hal back!

Yes please, and then someone can maintain it as the series progresses

[Raikujin]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

This is the kind of backlash that happens when you lead a horse to water and he finds out it's a bucket of morphine ...This was the episode that could have solidified Graham and slammed the haterade sippers like kiramuro...Unfortunately only hardcore Graham fans can defend the depth of his character at this point, but the lack of showcasing Graham vs. Setsuna in this episode gives the other side ample fuel...That's why this is my least favorite episode of S2...

Your posts really summed up what I felt after seeing this episode for a few times. Before S2 I was really looking forward to more interesting developments to the rivalries, but now I feel that they are not relevant to the plot anymore. Maybe the writers didn't intend for it to be that way, but they could have fleshed out some characters a little more. It's quite disappointing, cause I'm a Graham fan since S1 and now his character is reduced to a "buzzing fly"... But you know what they say, it's impossible to satisfy everyone.

[LordStrike]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

This is the kind of backlash that happens when you lead a horse to water and he finds out it's a bucket of morphine ...This was the episode that could have solidified Graham and slammed the haterade sippers like kiramuro...Unfortunately only hardcore Graham fans can defend the depth of his character at this point, but the lack of showcasing Graham vs. Setsuna in this episode gives the other side ample fuel...That's why this is my least favorite episode of S2...

Originally Posted by Raikujin

Your posts really summed up what I felt after seeing this episode for a few times. Before S2 I was really looking forward to more interesting developments to the rivalries, but now I feel that they are not relevant to the plot anymore. Maybe the writers didn't intend for it to be that way, but they could have fleshed out some characters a little more. It's quite disappointing, cause I'm a Graham fan since S1 and now his character is reduced to a "buzzing fly"... But you know what they say, it's impossible to satisfy everyone.

there is no need to make more emphasis on the graham VS setsuna we already know wtf happen why he hates gundams why does he want to surpass the gundams we know that. what else do we need t know about The G man? there is more to learn from Ali them from graham.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by slaag

This card tells me all I need to know about Graham's character. Think of him as the Harvey Dent of Gundam 00.

that's pretty cool, it summarizes the character very well.

[wingdarkness]

@Lordstrike –

Good LAWDstrike, your kinda missing the point…It’s not a need to emphasize the rivalry…It’s a need to characterize Graham in a way that makes the rivalry have meaning beyond that of annoying fly vs. the main character…Ali has had all kinds of backstory…His fights with Setsuna almost always come as a result of the plot…There are no autonomous Ali-battles that could easily exist outside the realm of the storyline…C’mon man, nothing to learn about Graham?? Did you know he was an orphan that dreamed about flying airplanes? Did you know why he ultimately had to go the military route or the precise circumstances that led to him killing his superior in the training exercise? Do you know why Ribbons or whomever tabbed him to be the only human in the story with an ALAW license? What exactly happened to him to make him wear the mask? Was it just the scars? I’m looking for backstory here…Backstory that every main antagonist has had that CONNECTS THEM TO THE STORYLINE…I know more about Kati Mannequin and Billy than has ever been shared with the audience about Graham…When you do give more insight into the character it makes his side of the rivalry have more meaning….Right now we’re only really seeing how Setsuna is changing via the rivalry, but Graham’s change (or lacktherof) is static in comparison…

Now this may all change, and I hope it does as I’ve enjoyed Gundam 00 throughout despite the fact they haven’t fleshed out certain characters to my liking…There very well may be a reveal in the end on Graham, but as it stands, pitifully and unfortunately kiramuro is right…Graham resembles a Jerid Messa far more than a Char, Zechs, or Rau right now…Hell he’s barely beating Chronicle Asner and Neo Lorrnoake which is shameful in my book...So with that said, if this remains the case, that’ll be a godamn shame…

[kakakka]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Graham resembles a Jerid Messa far more than a Char, Zechs, or Rau right now…

Agree...but to force him to be like Char, Zechs or Rau, he needs more than background story and 180 turn of his present character. Those masked men are leaders and chose to be like one, while Graham/Bushido on the other hand chose to be a lone soldier...no wonder he doesn't connect to the whole story right now...

EDIT: ....well, except as a foil to Setsuna I guess....

[DensetsuShun]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

@Lordstrike –

Good LAWDstrike, your kinda missing the point…It’s not a need to emphasize the rivalry…It’s a need to characterize Graham in a way that makes the rivalry have meaning beyond that of annoying fly vs. the main character…Ali has had all kinds of backstory…His fights with Setsuna almost always come as a result of the plot…There are no autonomous Ali-battles that could easily exist outside the realm of the storyline…C’mon man, nothing to learn about Graham?? Did you know he was an orphan that dreamed about flying airplanes? Did you know why he ultimately had to go the military route or the precise circumstances that led to him killing his superior in the training exercise? Do you know why Ribbons or whomever tabbed him to be the only human in the story with an ALAW license? What exactly happened to him to make him wear the mask? Was it just the scars? I’m looking for backstory here…Backstory that every main antagonist has had that CONNECTS THEM TO THE STORYLINE…I know more about Kati Mannequin and Billy than has ever been shared with the audience about Graham…When you do give more insight into the character it makes his side of the rivalry have more meaning….Right now we’re only really seeing how Setsuna is changing via the rivalry, but Graham’s change (or lacktherof) is static in comparison…

Now this may all change, and I hope it does as I’ve enjoyed Gundam 00 throughout despite the fact they haven’t fleshed out certain characters to my liking…There very well may be a reveal in the end on Graham, but as it stands, pitifully and unfortunately kiramuro is right…Graham resembles a Jerid Messa far more than a Char, Zechs, or Rau right now…Hell he’s barely beating Chronicle Asner and Neo Lorrnoake which is shameful in my book...So with that, if this remains the case, that’ll be a godamn shame…

Shouldn't this be on the character discussion page..?

Anyways, I do agree with you on Graham, the writers haven't focused much on the G-man and his story, and whatever they gave the public was only written in a side story. We need more development for Graham. My only question about him is, "What is his obsession with the battle?".

[LordStrike]

his obsession whit the battle is because his pride got damage by a gundam he see's the ultimate being(to put it in a way) in the gundam much like setsuna did you win against a gundam you have reach the ultimate state that's all at least all i see.

@wingdarkness

you want a char in graham? Char was a leader he was an ace but he could talk and people would actually listen to him and follow him he was a natural born leader to say in some words the G-man is not he is an ACE but that's all for the G-man to actually become like half of the masked man need a HOLE NEW STORY from the beginning, if you want to know why the mask? go and look at the different masked man that you see in gundam, and it all falls to the same thing or at least to a part of it the old dude is dead here is the new, a new person is born.

PS: your avatar really creeps the hell out of me XD.

[kakakka]

Originally Posted by DensetsuShun

What is his obsession with the battle?

To beat Gundams...

If you mean why he wants to beat the Gundams, to prove himself I guess. Graham, even before he became Mr. Bushido, is obsessed with going beyond the limits. "Graham Special", "Piloting a Flag w/o reading manual" etc. , all those crazy stuff almost no one tried. I guess that is what made him cool in Season 1. Then, there are the Gundams. They are so beyond the capabilities of the normal suits at the time they appeared. In short, they are godly. Well, here is Graham, fascinated by the performance Gundams did. He want to be like that, or go beyond that.

His fascination became obsession when hard times happened (comrade got killed, Overflag is totally useless, His body can't take Gs etc.). He realized he can't beat the Gundams with his current state. He was frustrated with all of that, then GN-T Drive appeared. Then this crazy idea of fitting Gn-T Drive to a Flag happened. I think that was his first step to reconstructing himself. His "Love confession" happened ('I don't care about the world').

Okay my speculation now is that, during that 4 years, he felt empty and seek something that would fill that emptiness. He followed some sort of soldier code, but still not content with it. I guess, he felt being on top, but without challenges (Gundams), he got bored.

Then Setsuna appeared again, Bushido felt that the feeling of the battle 4 years before would happen again (yes battle lust etc.). He thought that is what he is missing. He felt that the draw from 4 years ago is what makes him empty. He targetted Setsuna just to settle the draw.

[DensetsuShun]

Originally Posted by kakakka

To beat Gundams...

If you mean why he wants to beat the Gundams, to prove himself I guess. Graham, even before he became Mr. Bushido, is obsessed with going beyond the limits. "Graham Special", "Piloting a Flag w/o reading manual" etc. , all those crazy stuff almost no one tried. I guess that is what made him cool in Season 1. Then, there are the Gundams. They are so beyond the capabilities of the normal suits at the time they appeared. In short, they are godly. Well, here is Graham, fascinated by the performance Gundams did. He want to be like that, or go beyond that.

His fascination became obsession when hard times happened (comrade got killed, Overflag is totally useless, His body can't take Gs etc.). He realized he can't beat the Gundams with his current state. He was frustrated with all of that, then GN-T Drive appeared. Then this crazy idea of fitting Gn-T Drive to a Flag happened. I think that was his first step to reconstructing himself. His "Love confession" happened ('I don't care about the world').

Okay my speculation now is that, during that 4 years, he felt empty and seek something that would fill that emptiness. He followed some sort of soldier code, but still not content with it. I guess, he felt being on top, but without challenges (Gundams), he got bored.

Then Setsuna appeared again, Bushido felt that the feeling of the battle 4 years before would happen again (yes battle lust etc.). He thought that is what he is missing. He felt that the draw from 4 years ago is what makes him empty. He targetted Setsuna just to settle the draw.

So you're assuming he's a combatant by instinct? Hmm, seems plausible, but I don't believe it makes up completely why he loves battle.
The thing about surpassing a Gundam, or rather, everything/one else, seems highly plausible(I know for a fact how that feels), but to me, it doesn't really answer his battle lust. There seems to be something hidden beneath it, some ulterior motive, something from childhood that drives him to lust for battle.
We know from Setsuna that he doesn't choose a life of battle, merely that all his life, he's been made to believe it's the only path for him. Recently, there seems to be a turn in this train of thoughts. But what about Bushido? What is the true obsession for the combat for him? Perhaps, it goes too deep into his psychology for us to know now

[kakakka]

@ DensetsuShun
You mean the reason for his competitive nature? Maybe because he's poor before?
I remember a girl, who was poor when she was a child, that to be accepted to a school, she needs to be top of her class, and of course, she works all time to achieve/maintain that. Maybe that's the reason for Graham as well? His low position in life made him to be someone who likes/needs to strive to be on top? I dunno, I'm not that good at deep character analysis...

[LordStrike]

Originally Posted by DensetsuShun

So you're assuming he's a combatant by instinct? Hmm, seems plausible, but I don't believe it makes up completely why he loves battle.
The thing about surpassing a Gundam, or rather, everything/one else, seems highly plausible(I know for a fact how that feels), but to me, it doesn't really answer his battle lust. There seems to be something hidden beneath it, some ulterior motive, something from childhood that drives him to lust for battle.
We know from Setsuna that he doesn't choose a life of battle, merely that all his life, he's been made to believe it's the only path for him. Recently, there seems to be a turn in this train of thoughts. But what about Bushido? What is the true obsession for the combat for him? Perhaps, it goes too deep into his psychology for us to know now

man no offense if this sound rude im really not trying to be.

but what you want is an auto biography of Bushido/G-Man/Graham or better yet an entire anime base on his life o.o