Byakugan, Sharingan & Rinnengan

[Last of the Uchiha]

Originally Posted by Ke0

The water prison is simple, without Naruto and Sasuke, Kakashi would most like have died, since he couldn't get out himself, Zazuba pretty much had him beat, Seeing as Kakashi would have died there, there would have been no round 2. I was using that because someone said Kakashi owned Zazuba, but really Zazuba had Kakashi beat in the first match, easily

No. It all the way around, if Naruto and co. weren't there Kakashi woudln't have fallen to that trap, since he had to fight Zabuza and the same time protect his team. That's why he got careless and was trapped by Zabuza.

[raikage]

Originally Posted by Last of the Uchiha

No. It all the way around, if Naruto and co. weren't there Kakashi woudln't have fallen to that trap, since he had to fight Zabuza and the same time protect his team. That's why he got careless and was trapped by Zabuza.

...huh...? That seems like rather convenent thinking...

especially since it's not true. Kakashi didn't get trapped when he jumped in to save his team, he was trapped when he didn't realize that the Zabuza he was fighting was actually a Mizu Bunshin. That had NOTHING to do with Naruto + Co. - or at least I can't see how the situation would be different had no one else been there.

And how about that for you Sharingan-can-see-through-jutsus theorists? Kakashi couldn't see through the clone to realize that it WAS in fact a clone...

[ziphra]

Originally Posted by Ke0

The water prison is simple, without Naruto and Sasuke, Kakashi would most like have died, since he couldn't get out himself, Zazuba pretty much had him beat, Seeing as Kakashi would have died there, there would have been no round 2. I was using that because someone said Kakashi owned Zazuba, but really Zazuba had Kakashi beat in the first match, easily

I agree Kakashi would of died. But my point was we shouldn't put forth more "What If" statements because they just get shot down by reality.

and now raikage has a very interesting point. apparently, in the episode, Kakashi did NOT see that the Zabuza clone was a Mizu Bunshin. How is this justified? Well, if he HAD known [through Sharingan no less] he would of easily countered it with one of his many jutsu's. But that's a "what if" so disregard that.

[Shadamehr]

Originally Posted by raikage

And how about that for you Sharingan-can-see-through-jutsus theorists? Kakashi couldn't see through the clone to realize that it WAS in fact a clone...

*shrug* I interpreted mizubunshin as being similar to kagebunshin. It doesn't make water in the shape of a person that moves around, it transforms water into a real body. The body then transforms back into water after taking a hit. So, just as Neji cannot see even with the Byakugan which shadow clone is a real body, Kakashi cannot tell which water clone is real.

He can 'read' jutsus in that if he saw the jutsu being activated, he would immediately understand what was happening even if he hadn't seen it before, but he still wouldn't be able to tell afterwards which body was real if they got shuffled around in the mist.

P.S. I agree, Naruto and Co had nothing to do with Kakashi getting caught. He lost their first encounter fair and square (assuming of course, that there is some way for Zabuza to kill him while he's in the prison without letting him out first...)

[ziphra]

Originally Posted by Shadamehr

*shrug* I interpreted mizubunshin as being similar to kagebunshin. It doesn't make water in the shape of a person that moves around, it transforms water into a real body. The body then transforms back into water after taking a hit. So, just as Neji cannot see even with the Byakugan which shadow clone is a real body, Kakashi cannot tell which water clone is real.

He can 'read' jutsus in that if he saw the jutsu being activated, he would immediately understand what was happening even if he hadn't seen it before, but he still wouldn't be able to tell afterwards which body was real if they got shuffled around in the mist.

P.S. I agree, Naruto and Co had nothing to do with Kakashi getting caught. He lost their first encounter fair and square (assuming of course, that there is some way for Zabuza to kill him while he's in the prison without letting him out first...)

another good point, guess we have to find out if Mizu Bunshin is just like Kage Bunshin. Makes sense, but we'll never know unless another person can use Mizu Bunshin later in the future.

[Last of the Uchiha]

Originally Posted by raikage

...huh...? That seems like rather convenent thinking...

especially since it's not true. Kakashi didn't get trapped when he jumped in to save his team, he was trapped when he didn't realize that the Zabuza he was fighting was actually a Mizu Bunshin. That had NOTHING to do with Naruto + Co. - or at least I can't see how the situation would be different had no one else been there.

And how about that for you Sharingan-can-see-through-jutsus theorists? Kakashi couldn't see through the clone to realize that it WAS in fact a clone...

I didn't meant to sound that he got trapped during the process of saving his companions, but rather as Naruto + Co. were an obstacle for Kakashi. They were Zabuza's prey. He did attack the childrens a couple of time so that Kakashi would come out of hiding, thus having the oppportunity to strike him. He did that in their first fight as well as the second one. I would dare to say that Zabuza was a chicken to use the children as bait. That's for me demostrated that he didn't have what it took to fight Kakashi head on and had to resorted to thing that only a coward would do. As i have said before, Kakashi did get trapped because of his companions. If they weren't there, Kakashi would have quickly disposed of Zabuza. He always had the nin dogs to make up for the for the weak spot of his sharingan. We still haven't seen Itachi's sharingan in that situation.

I'm not a sharingan-can-see-through-jutsu theorists. I'm also confuse about that part but do tell me Oh great Byakugan-can-see-through-person theorists. Why Kakashi could identify Itachi's Kage Bushin? Well?

[ziphra]

Originally Posted by Last of the Uchiha

I'm not a sharingan-can-see-through-jutsu theorists. I'm also confuse about that part but do tell me Oh great Byakugan-can-see-through-person theorists. Why Kakashi could identify Itachi's Kage Bushin? Well?

oh man, totally forgot about that fight too. Ok, maybe Mizu Bunshin has some kind of property to it? I dunno...*sigh* And I thought it was already established that the Byakugan can see through people? Must just be my stupid fanboy thoughts...

[Last of the Uchiha]

[QUOTE=Shadamehr
P.S. I agree, Naruto and Co had nothing to do with Kakashi getting caught. He lost their first encounter fair and square (assuming of course, that there is some way for Zabuza to kill him while he's in the prison without letting him out first...)[/QUOTE]


If you think that Zabuza won that fight fair and square, then i don't know the meaning of those words.

A fair fight is when both fighters fight head on, without interference, without resorting to cheat.

That fight was not even close to be considered a fair fight. Using children as bait when things didn't go his way, yeah real fair.

If by any chance they have chance the meaning of those words, please let me know so i won't be left behind.

[Ke0]

Originally Posted by Last of the Uchiha

I'm not a sharingan-can-see-through-jutsu theorists. I'm also confuse about that part but do tell me Oh great Byakugan-can-see-through-person theorists. Why Kakashi could identify Itachi's Kage Bushin? Well?

Because they were both in Anbu so he knows Itachi's fighting style? I don't know maybe?

[raikage]

Mizu Bunshin into a complete and real body? Doubtful - since the clone cannot go too far from the body. This implies that the bunshin still draws its energy from the original user.

Zabuza using the children as bait...? Sort of, but almost irrelevant to this situation. Remember, Kakashi thought he actually outsmarted Zabuza, when in fact Zabuza was the one who though further ahead in that situation. It wouldn't have changed if Team 7 + Tazuna weren't there.

Kakashi did have his Nin dogs, but he didn't use them until the last few minutes of the fight. Far more than enough time for Zabuza to have killed Kakashi - at that point, Kakashi was as good as dead. Kakashi won pretty much the same way that Naruto beat Neji - after the match had been decided. Hell, even Zabuza challenges Kakashi to do something. Zabuza deliberately delays killing Kakashi.

Kakashi being able to see which one was the clone? I refer you to sarcasteak's post in the Naruto Q&A:

This question has been answered by the Characters Data Book.
Kage Buushin is divided into two versions: Kage Buushin and Massive Kage Buushin. The former is a normal jounin-level technique we've seen several jounins use; the version Naruto learned from the Forbidden Seal, however, is the massive version that creates army of clones and basically splits up all of the user's remaining chakra almost instantly. Not only is it generally not a good thing for the user's body to deplete that much chakra all at once, it is also an extreme double-edged move in battle, so no one other than the Hokage and selected people are allowed to learn. Since Naruto learned the massive version...there is no reason he can't do the normal version. ^_^;;

[epyon96]

Originally Posted by raikage

Mizu Bunshin into a complete and real body? Doubtful - since the clone cannot go too far from the body. This implies that the bunshin still draws its energy from the original user.

Zabuza using the children as bait...? Sort of, but almost irrelevant to this situation. Remember, Kakashi thought he actually outsmarted Zabuza, when in fact Zabuza was the one who though further ahead in that situation. It wouldn't have changed if Team 7 + Tazuna weren't there.

Kakashi did have his Nin dogs, but he didn't use them until the last few minutes of the fight. Far more than enough time for Zabuza to have killed Kakashi - at that point, Kakashi was as good as dead. Kakashi won pretty much the same way that Naruto beat Neji - after the match had been decided. Hell, even Zabuza challenges Kakashi to do something. Zabuza deliberately delays killing Kakashi.

Kakashi being able to see which one was the clone? I refer you to sarcasteak's post in the Naruto Q&A:

Raikage, I can see how your side of the argument can work that Kakashi only won by a matter of luck at the end.

But if you take a step back and consider the other side that Kakashi had the entire fight planned (which tends to suit his character slightly), than I think it is also reasonable for the other side of the argument also works.

Don't assume all the words an enemy says in a battle are exact evaluations of a fight because for all we know they could be taunts. Recall how Kakashi said, "This is as far as it goes" to Itachi when he first stopped Itachi from almost killing Kurenai. He wasn't exactly accurate in this evaluation at all, which luckily he quickly realized. Unfortunately, he still later fell pray to Itachi's might.

EPYON

[Shadamehr]

Originally Posted by Last of the Uchiha

If you think that Zabuza won that fight fair and square, then i don't know the meaning of those words.

A fair fight is when both fighters fight head on, without interference, without resorting to cheat.

That fight was not even close to be considered a fair fight. Using children as bait when things didn't go his way, yeah real fair.

If by any chance they have chance the meaning of those words, please let me know so i won't be left behind.

1) It's not a duel, they have a mission. Zabuza's mission was to kill the bridge maker, so he attacked the bridge maker. It's ridiculous to impose some kind of restriction on how he can fight.
2) Kakashi got trapped because he got fooled by the mizubunshin, and then further complicated his screwup by fleeing into the water. It would have played out the same way whether or not the children were there.

Originally Posted by raikage

Mizu Bunshin into a complete and real body? Doubtful - since the clone cannot go too far from the body. This implies that the bunshin still draws its energy from the original user.

I'm pretty sure Kage bunshin can't go too far either, although we don't know for sure. I just figure people would be using them for scouting more often if they could (completely disposable spies that can vanish at will? too good...)

Kakashi did have his Nin dogs, but he didn't use them until the last few minutes of the fight. Far more than enough time for Zabuza to have killed Kakashi - at that point, Kakashi was as good as dead. Kakashi won pretty much the same way that Naruto beat Neji - after the match had been decided. Hell, even Zabuza challenges Kakashi to do something. Zabuza deliberately delays killing Kakashi.

Zabuza did attack twice, and failed to kill Kakashi. Kakashi got hurt, but says it was intentional. Whether or not you believe this is up to you, but it certainly casts doubt on whether Kakashi was 'as good as dead'.

I thought they made it pretty clear they were both playing around and testing each other, as is common in high level jounin battles. Remember the dialogue right before Kakashi used the nin-dogs? Kakashi asked Zabuza if he was OK with them just using their best shots right away. I didn't interpret that as Zabuza having the ability to finish Kakashi any time he wanted, I interpreted it as Zabuza testing his grounds with the mist. He doesn't know Kakashi, so he doesn't know how well he can see, how well he can react blind, whether or not he'll be ready for it when Zabuza attacks. So he bides his time and tries to catch him by surprise. It's not like Zabuza can cast hidden mist no jutsu any time he wants and have a free victory against anybody who doesn't have 'silent assassination' skills.

I think you're working under the belief that Kakashi is totally blind and unaware of Zabuza's presence, whereas Zabuza, because of his 'silent assassination' skills is just as good as being able to see Kakashi. The mist obscures everything, and makes it a game of trying to identify your opponent's location and strike accordingly. Zabuza's skills make him better at this game, but it's not like he can just kill Kakashi whenever he wants.

[nh1]

I wonder why Kakashi couldn't find a counterjutsu against the Hidden (?) Mist no Jutsu, or at least simply "counter" it with his Sharingan...

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by UserName

Hunter. Do you mind posting a picture of Shino's fight against Zaku. When Neji looks inside him and only see inside nad an non-opaque exterior. Saying that they can't draw a proper view of the byukagan is an assumption.

So what?
Once again with that I can say that Neji can't see the inner coils with the Byakugan and can't see through people.

It's impossible to draw a readable panel of the vision of someone with a vision field of almost 360° and seeing through everything on a sphere of 50m radius.
The pic wouldn't have any sens, it would be all black due to the too many things drawed.

Everytimes the manga shows a part of the Byakugan vision, it accentuates the current important point, the inner coils or the bugs or the through something,

Originally Posted by Lemartes

This makes your previous point with the 10% jutsus useless.
Nobody who is specialized in one field can compete with a spezialist in his field.
Someone here said that the ninjas wouldn't show their best and most deadly Jutsus for nothing and that's how it is. You can't assume that a Sharingan user can compete with a water Jutsu spezialist while being on a boat for example.
Itachi is not an adequate example here - he is strong even without using the Sharingan.

Actually I can.
Kakashi fought with water jutsu against a water jutsu specialist.
And none of his blows were inferior to those of his opponent, the Sharingan doesn't allow you to have a weak version of the copied jutsu, it allows you to master it immediately, the fact that you can use it properly or not is only according your body capacities such as stamina, amount of chakra, etc.
Then your point has no relation with the fact that to have a great amount of jutsu is very useful and can increase dramaticaly the level of a ninja in certain case.

You assume that from watching 2 sides of a manga, even though it is not clearly stated? Congratulations, you have one example against 2 of me.
An as I could predict it, you ignored my second statemend regarding this - that all of this wouldn't be a proof for the Sharingan influencing a Byakugan user in this state.(does he fix his whole field of vision or just one point?)

I don't assume anything here, I read the manga.
You have no examples, the manga never stated that the Byakugan users don't see the eyes, your only 'point' is that there are panels where the manga shows the inner coils and not the eyes because they showed nothing else than a grey background.
But maybe you think that the Hyuga become suddenly blind when they see the inner coils?
Anyway, it's not the only time that Neji sees eyes while using the Byakugan.

Then you hadn't a second statement, you said that I made assumption when I said that the Byakugan does see eyes.
I said that you were wrong and I proved it.

"It's nowhere stated Byakugan doesn't see eyes" This sentence almost made me cry. Just because it's not stated, it's a fact? ahahaha, that's dumb. It's a fact when it's stated, you know?

And it was stated.

I just said that he can't have trained jyuken for 12 years when he's 13. A 1 year old baby is...uhmm..a baby, you know? Even kid gymnasts start at the age of 3, because starting training earlier would be futile.

For the 2nd or 3rd times, Neji isn't 13 years old he's 14~15 now.

Furthermore I said that I was wrong this the Byakugan being able to predict movements, so what's the problem?
The eye thing is stated above.

No problem, it's just that your others points are wrong as well.

You don't know the speed, impact on human. That's enough against the Amaterasu being an instant kill jutsu. Until it is shown in the manga/anime.

We do know the speed, they were running like hell and being very close to the wall which was targeted while the walls of flesh closed themselves quickly.
The destruction was immediate.
Then impact on human?
You mean except that it burned flesh into less than ashes?

If you quote me and tell me to re-read the manga after I said that there is no proof for the Amaterasu to be an instant kill Jutsu..yeah, you fail.
This statement that there is no proof wasn't even directed to you.

Make my day and don't lie.
I didn't quote and say to re-read the manga about this point, even if I did that for about all the others due to their wrong-ness.

Instead of you, I'm smart enough to confess wrong points(like predicting movements of the Byakugan.).
You're using half assed and half true points which are uncertain and not absolutely clear. Again not I've to proof that the Byakugan is influenced by mange sharingan, but you have to.

Firstly, don't try to change the point, you didn't say that the Byakugan wouldn't be influenced by the Tsukiyomi (and if you do want to discuss about that, no problem : follow your own adive and prove it) but really that the Byakugan doesn't see the eyes.

Then you already say that I cut your quotes to favor my way, I tell you to give me an example of that, you didn't.
Now, not only you try to change the subject to hide that you were completely wrong from the start but you say that I use 'half assed and half true points' to make that clear.
Once again, any examples of that?

Then yes, you have to prove that the Byakugan is immunized against the Tsukiyomi, as you would have to prove it if you said that people with glasse are immunized against it, or people with blue eyes for that matters.

And until now I haven't seen any proof. Sure the Byakugan can see eyes, [...]

At last...
Should I quote every single time in your previous post where you said that I was making assumption about that?

Since I don't put any effort into discussion which eye is superior, I don't consider myself to be really into this discussion.
Right now the only thing that keeps me posting here is you with your "funny" replys :BBB

If you stop acting like a moron, trying to hide the lack of arguments, this thread could become a good one, I am sure.
But it can't be helped that unfunny people try to mock someone they imagine inferior. But here you fail and I have to say:
Sir, you suck.
My dog could do better in saying assumptions = facts without backup.

If you're unable to remain sarcastic without falling into the flame, don't post at all.
You will only get banned.

Btw I find that rather funny given your own post :

Originally Posted by Lemartes

since you're already trying to insult me(which isn't a good sign for you to have the better arguments).

That was meant to be ironic isn't it?

[EbonySeraphim]

My my has this conversation moved to different depths and directions. It's a little off topic, but I'd like to take the time to address some of the more recent topics I have seen without being fully updated -- shame on me.

Between Hunter and Lemartes:
On the issue dealing with specialists - This came up in a past thread as an arguement against Sharingan's usefulness (or maybe just an earlier page on this thread) too. Basically, it isn't impossible to fight a specialist in their own area. Sharingan's ability to copy jutsu is flawless like Hunter said. It is only dependent on the Sharingan user's chakra ability (amount/control - yadda yadda) on the effectiveness of its execution. If they can use it though, they will use it just as effectively and intelligently as the ninja they are even if it is new to them. They don't need to be a specialist to use it the most effectively. It is likely that a Sharingan user will not have copied all water jutsu, so you can assume that a specialist will always know more jutsu in a specific area than someone who isn't, but that doesn't mean that the extra jutsu they know in their area will deliver victory. Because a Sharingan user would know some relevant jutsu in the arena in which they are fighting, it grants them some defense in using jutsu's of the field to defend against others, and perhaps a basic knowledge of how jutsu's of a certain type work which would allow them to deal with most anything thrown at them. It's similar to a situation as someone who knows 50 different ways to punch vs someone who only knows 10. The one who knows the smaller set of 10 hasn't seen the 40 other ways, but most likely he can defend against most of the unknowns as the same defense can be used to deal with them. Moving back to the Naruto world - additionally, Sharingan users would and should have many other jutsu of different elements at their disposal which would work towards their victory. Mixing these jutsu's in at the right situations are very effective (something like what happened in the Hokage fight - fire jutsu defended against using water, and an earth jutsu used to stop/disturb the flow of water).

Originally Posted by Lemartes

You can't assume that a Sharingan user can compete with a water Jutsu spezialist while being on a boat for example.

You can't assume the contrary either. The thing about Sharingan users is the fact that they most likely know a water jutsu or two which doesn't leave them without weapons, or defenseless. Combine that with being a generally good ninja - of course they shouldn't lose easily. Being a good ninja entails that you shouldn't lose easily in any situation. (other than obvious power level differences)

About the Kakashi vs Zabuza fight: I agree with Last of the Uchiha with his assessment of the situation Kakashi was in when he got caught in the water prison. I don't agree with the nature that it was stated, but having someone to worry about within range of a fight does effect one's ability in a fight. It opens some worry that takes of part of a person's concious and keeps them from fully concentrating on defeating an enemy. One small thing Kakashi would have to worry about is if he posititioned himself further away from Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura than Zabuza, they were in danger so he would have to put himself in certain positions where he knew he could save them if he had to. Right now thats the only thing I can think of, but in general, when a fight has more than just two people present, two people engaged in combat cannot only be aware of each other. Not that Kakashi had to save then three genins which got him screwed, but in general, I think he could have given a better fight and wouldn't have been caught had they not been there.

I also really am skeptical on the water prison really being the end for Kakashi if Naruto and Sasuke weren't there. Sure they gave a description of it and supposedly he had no way to get out. But the way it was released didn't seem like something impossible to accomplish from inside the prison. This is just my opinion, but I think there was definitely a not-too-difficult way to break the prison, and that it wasn't beyond Kakashi's ability to force Zabuza to release the jutsu.

About the water clone and Sharingan's sight - I don't think this was an issue of Sharingan not being able to detect a water clone or not. Sasuke is clearly able to detect ink clones later in the anime; what is the difference in the make up of the ink compared to water? (other than chemical properties) I think what happened was a mistake on Kakashi's part. He didn't look for the validity of the form he attacked because either his Sharingan wasn't activated, or the Sharingan doesn't passively allow the users to detect clones. I'd have to rewatch to fight to remember if his Sharingan was active or not. Although judging from Sasuke's use in the Forest of Death, it seems then he had to actively see if the forms were real or not so that was probably Kakashi's mistake.

[Cort]

Originally Posted by ziphra

sorry to bring you into this Cort, but this needs some explanation.

More potential? As in more useful advanced moves? As in better usefulness in combat situations? As in overall power?

It means just what I said. Basically just my opinion that we've yet to see all that it is capable of, while with the byukugan they were pretty direct about what it did and there isn't much past that. They can find new ways to take advantage of 360 sight I guess, but they are already doing a pretty good job of it.

[Hunter]

About the water prison, I don't think that this move could have finish the fight either.
Even if you really can't get out of it (and I really doubt that a Chidori can't pierce that), the opponent hasn't so many solution to kill you once you're taken.

The user can barely move his body and one of his hand can't move at all, so no huge jutsu to finish the prisoner.
This jutsu is supposed to be unbreakable, so does the user can break it from the outside?
Or did he need to release the jutsu in order to kill his opponent once he finished what he wanted to?
And even if the water sphere can't be broken at all, the user has still one of his hand inside the sphere, and that's something that you can attack from the inside.

Anyway, I don't really see the point to use a useful jutsu as an argument against the Sharingan.
It's something that the Sharingan can copy, and would have copied if Kakashi wouldn't have been taken by the water prison in the back.
User mistake, not bloodline limitation.

Ebony actually there is a difference between the 'ink' clones and the water clones, the ink ones were a Genjutsu whereas the water clone is a Ninjutsu.

[evilryu]

Lads I think we're going round in circles lol...

I'm a Byukugan fan but lets just say the show revolves around Naruto and Sasuke so blatantly more emphasis will be put on Sharingan whether Hyuuga owns Uchiha or what not.

And my, the posts are getting longer and longer, the arguments become so complicated and bloated that it becomes pointless.

[EbonySeraphim]

Originally Posted by evilryu

Lads I think we're going round in circles lol...

I think so too. I thought this topic died a long time ago. I wasn't too surpised that it got bumped up when Itachi showed up on the scene considering he showed new abilities. But then I noticed that this topic started going strong again and was constantly getting posts. Discussion of the abilites in the abstract sense always breaks as people have to use concrete examples and then there is disagreement in the depiction and stated facts. One thing leads to another and you have a broken conversation. Really, everyone should be trying to bring whatever branch they follow, back to the main point but its hard to do that if neither side is willing to back down.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Ebony actually there is a difference between the 'ink' clones and the water clones, the ink ones were a Genjutsu whereas the water clone is a Ninjutsu.

Mistaken point of fact. That would be a difference which would explain why Sharingan might not be able to identify water clones. Out of curiousity - how did they explain the ink clones actually doing damage if it was only genjutsu? I thought they were physical entities.

[Shadamehr]

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

About the Kakashi vs Zabuza fight: I agree with Last of the Uchiha with his assessment of the situation Kakashi was in when he got caught in the water prison. I don't agree with the nature that it was stated, but having someone to worry about within range of a fight does effect one's ability in a fight. It opens some worry that takes of part of a person's concious and keeps them from fully concentrating on defeating an enemy. One small thing Kakashi would have to worry about is if he posititioned himself further away from Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura than Zabuza, they were in danger so he would have to put himself in certain positions where he knew he could save them if he had to. Right now thats the only thing I can think of, but in general, when a fight has more than just two people present, two people engaged in combat cannot only be aware of each other. Not that Kakashi had to save then three genins which got him screwed, but in general, I think he could have given a better fight and wouldn't have been caught had they not been there.

It's true that their being there distracts Kakashi, but I think it was clear that was not what lead to his downfall. It wasn't a matter of his not reacting to something fast enough, he *did* react well to Zabuza's assult on the kids, then tried to trick Zabuza with the clone (i.e. an intellectual ploy rather than one based on reaction time). Zabuza then got the better of Kakashi in a clone mind-game, which has nothing to do with the kids. If Kakashi had anticipated the water clone, he would have escaped, but he did not. The kids not being there isn't going to improve his strategical and analytical abilities, esp. when they all stood around in the mist for several seconds planning out their next moves. It's like saying someone playing rock-paper-scissors had a disadvantage because they had to babysit someone.

I also really am skeptical on the water prison really being the end for Kakashi if Naruto and Sasuke weren't there. Sure they gave a description of it and supposedly he had no way to get out. But the way it was released didn't seem like something impossible to accomplish from inside the prison. This is just my opinion, but I think there was definitely a not-too-difficult way to break the prison, and that it wasn't beyond Kakashi's ability to force Zabuza to release the jutsu.

We'll never really know, but I do agree that Zabuza probably could not kill Kakashi without releasing him first. I think the point of the water-prison was just to keep Kakashi out of it while he killed the kids and Tazuna with his mizubunshin.

About the water clone and Sharingan's sight - I don't think this was an issue of Sharingan not being able to detect a water clone or not. Sasuke is clearly able to detect ink clones later in the anime; what is the difference in the make up of the ink compared to water? (other than chemical properties) I think what happened was a mistake on Kakashi's part. He didn't look for the validity of the form he attacked because either his Sharingan wasn't activated, or the Sharingan doesn't passively allow the users to detect clones. I'd have to rewatch to fight to remember if his Sharingan was active or not. Although judging from Sasuke's use in the Forest of Death, it seems then he had to actively see if the forms were real or not so that was probably Kakashi's mistake.

The ink-clones were a type of genjutsu (i.e. not physically there). The water-clone is not. Remember the genjutsu trio had to throw real kunai and match their attacks with the clones?