Fate/stay night Final Thoughts & Overall Impressions

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Nasu's interpretation of the routes I think was:
Fate: pursuing the ideal
UBW: Being confronted with the consequences of an ideal
HF: Trying to put an ideal into practice

Just like I said:

Fate: pursuing the ideal ( To protect and serve )
UBW: Being confronted with the consequences of an ideal ( what does protecting and serving means? )
HF: Trying to put an ideal into practice ( ditch that, what I like is the more important than others. In short - he failed, hard ).

In the end, it all resolves about the ideals - not characters.

"Nasu: The main theme is "conquering oneself." There are three story lines in Fate, each has a different themes. The first one is the "oneself as an ideal." The second one is "struggling with oneself as an ideal." The third one is "the friction with real and ideal."

This game is describing the growth of the main character Emiya Shirou. The first storyline shows his slanted mind, the next storyline shows his resolve, and the last storyline gives another resolution for him as a human. All three storylines are essentially equal, but they have different forms."

Exactly this, conquering yourself means trying to balance the reality of life and what you want to change in it for the better ( ideals ). As Nasu pointed, they are all essentially equal but also different. In the end, all 3 lead to same conclusion - no matter what you choose you will always have consequences of some sort.

This is a terrible and obviously-biased interpretation of HF. It is not simply "what I like is more important", it's "I'll protect those I care for first and foremost". Which is normal human behaviour, and perfectly reasonable. It also does not imply in any way ditching the wish to protect others, it just means protecting everyone (and, particularly, those you care for) and not just the majority.

Spoiler for HF spoilers:

No, it's pretty accurate and the easiest explanation of that route. It's entire point is being selfish ( contrary to Fate who's point is to be selfless and UBW in which you think of others but also of yourself, HF point to think only for yourself ), hence the choice - save others or save just Sakura ( so if he had to choose between million people dying and Sakura he would choose Sakura, which he did aldo only few hundred/thousand died, not millions ). But I guess this is how people think today, where are the golden generations of 1940's...

That is why I said I am most sorry of Sakura, she has been given the worst screen-time and worst possible story ( in my opinion ). I am glad they at least gave her a movie in the end to compensate a little for what they did to her in 'Fate' franchise.

[cyberdemon]

This isn't really the right thread to be going that deeply into HF as it borders on spoilerish and this isn't the game or movie thread.

[crismonalex]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

@crismonalex
.
Fate - To protect and serve.
UBW - what does protecting and serving means?
Haven's Feel - ditch that, what I like is the more important than others.

It's best to read entire novel yourself and reach your own conclusion, rather than people telling you what is good and bad in it.

Thanks. I will, that's why opinions are fun Xp

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Seib9

Following, and ignoring the thing about HF, this everyone with brains should say that UBW is the best, right? An ideal being asked and not being followed without know a shit.

No, because his comment is obviously and stupidly biased to begin with.

Sorry to Sakura fans but I don't think they have the best material to boast about favourite heroine, even if I like her, a completely opposite thing happens the route itself even if it's unfair to compare the "introductory" route to the last one. And I've never seen and HF fan who isn't a completely obsessed idiot to call the other routes "bad".

Well, yes, if you define "HF fan who isn't a completely obsessed idiot" to be "someone who doesn't call the other routes bad" as you seem to be, then obviously no-one is going to fit that....

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Spoiler for HF spoilers:

No, it's pretty accurate and the easiest explanation of that route. It's entire point is being selfish ( contrary to Fate who's point is to be selfless and UBW in which you think of others but also of yourself, HF point to think only for yourself ), hence the choice - save others or save just Sakura ( so if he had to choose between million people dying and Sakura he would choose Sakura, which he did aldo only few hundred/thousand died, not millions ). But I guess this is how people think today, where are the golden generations of 1940's...

Spoiler for HF:

No, it's not, it's about not murdering innocent people in cold blood just in case. That is not in any way "selfish", that's called actually trying to be a hero and not a bloodthirsty psychopath....

Originally Posted by crismonalex

Thanks. I will, that's why opinions are fun Xp

I love how he said that immediately after giving an obviously derogatory and negative "summary" of HF....

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Just like I said:

Fate: pursuing the ideal ( To protect and serve )
UBW: Being confronted with the consequences of an ideal ( what does protecting and serving means? )
HF: Trying to put an ideal into practice ( ditch that, what I like is the more important than others. In short - he failed, hard ).

There's a scene in Fate/Stay Night VN where Archer confronts Saber and Shirou and leaves this question lingering: are you fighting to protect ideals or people? Because protecting an ideal ideals doesn't mean actually saving people. Of course, the wording isn't exact but you get the gist.

Spoiler for VN spoilers and fate/zero spoilers:

I feel in light of this question (and Kiritsugu's failure), you can interpret the focus as:

Fate = Protect ideal and loved one/person (main relationship focus on Saber, love interest but also mentor to the ideals - Excalibur itself is made of ideals and this is the route that Shirou has a full glimpse of the golden sword).
UBW = Protect the ideal (main relationship focus on Archer, mentor of the ideals).
HF = Protect the loved one/person (Sakura, the love interest).

Sure, Rin is a love interest in UBW, but there's no focus on her actual drama, as foreshadowed it was, Shirou doesn't help her at all (he does in HF). His resolution (and Saber's) is about protecting an ideal. In HF, it's about protecting people (be an ally to someone and not to an intangible ideal). In Fate, it's about protecting both, Saber has a double nature and Shirou tries to reconcile both sides of them through the route (the writing is poor at times). The endings reflect this too, in Fate, in Last Episode, both of them follow their ideals but they never give up to make their loved one happy as priority. UBW final word is about how their ideals were right. HF is about Sakura's smile, her happiness and the happiness of a cozy family world that was protected.

None of the answers are wrong. None of the results are lesser than the other, it's just the focus of each story. Kiritsugu failed to protect his ideals and people immediately close to him. Shirou picks up his role in order to redeem that failure.

[Cherry_Lover]

I think Shirou is always fighting to protect people first and foremost.

Spoiler for VN:

Even UBW Shirou would find it very difficult to kill an innocent person in cold blood, and I can't see him killing someone he cares for (e.g. Rin) willingly. That is a big part of what differentiates him from Archer or MoS Shirou. He still cares about people first and foremost, and his ideal is to save people.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

I think Shirou is always fighting to protect people first and foremost.

Spoiler for VN:

Even UBW Shirou would find it very difficult to kill an innocent person in cold blood, and I can't see him killing someone he cares for (e.g. Rin) willingly. That is a big part of what differentiates him from Archer or MoS Shirou. He still cares about people first and foremost, and his ideal is to save people.

Spoiler for just in case:

UBW puts in tension what he's protecting really: are saving people means to an end to save the ideal or protecting the ideal is a means to an end to protect people. Archer lecture is something both Saber and Shirou take at heart in UBW and in UBW they could never save people, they saved their ideals. Saber found satisfaction by this and so did Archer. Shirou's drifting in the end and wondering about how to live his life... but his conflict was about his ideals.

Archer dismisses heroic rescue of people because that's not really saving them, I should go and hunt for what he says, but he says that people only save themselves. In light of the conflicts Saber and Sakura experienced, they make sense. They were saved and not just because Shirou threw himself to shield them, but because they were supported and provided with an ally. In HF, he also saves Rin who was lost about her relationship with his sister. Fate, like I stated, deal with this double nature while HF and UBW lean on one side.

[Cherry_Lover]

Spoiler for just in case:

Originally Posted by Thess

UBW puts in tension what he's protecting really: are saving people means to an end to save the ideal or protecting the ideal is a means to an end to protect people. Archer lecture is something both Saber and Shirou take at heart in UBW and in UBW they could never save people, they saved their ideals. Saber found satisfaction by this and so did Archer. Shirou's drifting in the end and wondering about how to live his life... but his conflict was about his ideals.

Well, Shirou's ideal is to save people. It's meaningless to say that he cares more about the ideal than the people because the two do not conflict. The only conflict comes when Shirou starts turning the ideal into "kill one to save many", and even UBW Shirou does not follow that path.

Archer dismisses heroic rescue of people because that's not really saving them, I should go and hunt for what he says, but he says that people only save themselves. In light of the conflicts Saber and Sakura experienced, they make sense. They were saved and not just because Shirou threw himself to shield them, but because they were supported and provided with an ally. In HF, he also saves Rin who was lost about her relationship with his sister. Fate, like I stated, deal with this double nature while HF and UBW lean on one side.

Well, "heroic rescue" may not be able to save someone entirely, but sometimes it's a necessary step on the path. Sakura, for example, is simply not capable of saving herself. She needs someone who can help destroy Zouken, because she herself is unable to do so.

[Nayrael]

I think you guys should continue this in the Game tread...

[Lorhand]

I think you should know that the last post before yours is one week old.