(L) ef - a tale of memories.

[AvatarST]

One question.

What harm would Miyako do to anyone, other than herself, if Hiro actually read those messages?

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by beamknight87

Mmm, just of the blue I watched the first episode... and I was hooked, I watched up to ep 7 in one run and holy crap, this is an awesome show, far more interesting than some other turd that has been aired lately, seriously, this should have it's own sub forum -_-

In some way, any show deserve a sub-forum, depending of the watchers and all. However, it wouldn't be nice and dandy if the series becomes quite silent after a while (see some case, like pumkin scissors).
That said, the series is already halfway, and the amount of discussions and participations are unfortunately not meeting the requisites for a sub-forum. And not, it isn't encouraging spam, of course.

So I'm afraid this series won't get any sub-forum for the time being. That is my opinion anyway, and any other moderator can confirm or prove me wrong. But sometimes, a sub-forum isn't required, am i right?

Originally Posted by AvatarST

One question.

What harm would Miyako do to anyone, other than herself, if Hiro actually read those messages?

Absolutely none. That's quite ironic, and that's why there is such debate.
This is absolutely the reasoning why Kei's behaviour is ridiculous and selfish. She is acting more possessively than a chicken mother, and at this rate, she would turn hiro's warrant officer or something...

[taelrak]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

One question.

What harm would Miyako do to anyone, other than herself, if Hiro actually read those messages?

As mentioned, in this instant case, probably absolutely none in the long run, hence why it's so controversial.

However, I'd go so far as to suggest the the majority of people on this forum, who would out of sympathy want to absolve Miyako, would also firmly believe that the ends do not justify the means.

Hence, as I stated in my post above, that no harm ultimately resulted from her actions in this instant case is merely the result of circumstances under which she had no control or knowledge. Just as you wouldn't blame her for the ultimate harm that resulted if a minor action resulted in an unforeseeable harm, you also couldn't absolve her of any blame if a wrong action just happened to result in an unforeseeable lack of harm. She was "lucky" -- shall we excuse her or blame her based on that luck?

[AvatarST]

Right, that's how I see it too. Besides, if Hiro had had the cellphone on him, she wouldn't have really broken down. Of course, you can't really blame Hiro for that either, but he'd have answered her or actually gone there.

Let's look at how both of them deal with their problems, too. Miyako has a problem with something regarding their relationship, and she goes to Hiro. When Kei has one, she goes to Miyako.

EDIT: But can you really blame and condemn people based on what they could potentially do? Get back to me when Miyako does something bad enough to be considered dangerous. I don't think what she did would've been seen as stalking by Hiro, and possibly because she feels close enough to him she was able to do that.

And also, forgive me if I don't understand something you said or answer wrongly, your english is on quite a high level and in my case it's not my first language.

[taelrak]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

Right, that's how I see it too. Besides, if Hiro had had the cellphone on him, she wouldn't have really broken down. Of course, you can't really blame Hiro for that either, but he'd have answered her or actually gone there.

Let's look at how both of them deal with their problems, too. Miyako has a problem with something regarding their relationship, and she goes to Hiro. When Kei has one, she goes to Miyako.

EDIT: But can you really blame and condemn people based on what they could potentially do? Get back to me when Miyako does something bad enough to be considered dangerous. I don't think what she did would've been seen as stalking by Hiro, and possibly because she feels close enough to him she was able to do that.

I agree that if we narrow in on just this case, pragmatically speaking, Miyako certainly is worthy of some sympathy. I still don't believe that this is enough to justify the actions she undertook in and of themselves though.

Still, for her at the least, we all know that eventually she'll work around the problem and overcome it--and Hiro will be instrumental in doing that. Any temporary harm she causes will likely be only a necessary transition to ultimately redefining herself. I don't have an issue with that.

However, I have a few objections to this 'wait and see' idea.

First, if grievous harm does occur, it's one thing to say you can't judge someone for actions they haven't committed, but it's another to say that you can't judge someone for wrongful actions they DID already commit, but which did not culminate in the intended purpose (hence we call it an "attempt"), and then they end up doing more actions in furtherance of that harm.

Second, this is again focusing very narrowly on the result of an instant case. While this may be good and fair if this is the only case we're interested in, we also tend to ignore the fact that these characters exist in a society not unlike our own, and each decision has external social effects. Shall we be sympathetic to her, without considering the effect her actions will have on others? Even more so, shall we not consider the potential precedents set by allowing such sympathy to be the determinative factor in judging her? It's a very slippery slope, and while we want to make some room for sympathy and "totality of circumstances" in each case, we also want to confine such sympathy within a certain degree of reasonableness.

Third, in light of this being a debate more on morality than outcome, there doesn't seem to be a need to define culpability only in relation to outcomes when we're talking about states of minds. While that is certainly one point of view, do we also necessarily believe that any act, however immoral, is justified in light of the outcome? (Yes, this isn't a specific objection to the case at hand, but this is a point upon which this consequentialist argument necessarily rests.)

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by taelrak

Am I generalizing? Yes - but this is also by necessity if we were to use an objective standard and then apply it to her case. A totality of circumstances case-by-case analysis is nice and all, but is far too arbitrary and decisions get made based on sympathy instead of merits. I would even argue that it is by applying such generalizations and fitting and justifying them to the case at hand that the merits get resolved fairly.

And this is where we disagree I am strongly against the notion of all cases to be judged by some universal standard, as each situation is unique. Thats like saying a murder is a murder and pass same judgment on all persons to have committed such an act regardless of specifics.

I don't believe that is a fair resolution to the situation - quite the opposite. I believe we gain little to nothing by generalizing a situation and not taking the specifics in to account. Otherwise we have a very narrow judgment that would exactly be unfair in a lot of cases. In Miyako's case, the behavior she exhibited (while obviously not "normal") had no potential of inflicting harm to anyone (aside from leaving Hiro dumbfounded for a few moments, which is not exactly that terrible).

She caused no harm, and had no potential in causing one given her situation, so why is she being judged as if she had ?

And no - ends do not justify the means. That is a potentially very harmful stance to take.

[taelrak]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

And this is where we disagree I am strongly against the notion of all cases to be judged by some universal standard, as each situation is unique. Thats like saying a murder is a murder and pass same judgment on all persons to have committed such an act regardless of specifics.

I don't believe that is a fair resolution to the situation - quite the opposite. I believe we gain little to nothing by generalizing a situation and not taking the specifics in to account. Otherwise we have a very narrow judgment that would exactly be unfair in a lot of cases. In Miyako's case, the behavior she exhibited (while obviously not "normal") had no potential of inflicting harm to anyone (aside from leaving Hiro dumbfounded for a few moments, which is not exactly that terrible).

She caused no harm, and had no potential in causing one given her situation, so why is she being judged as if she had ?

And no - ends do not justify the means. That is a potentially very harmful stance to take.

If ends do not justify the means, which I'll rephrase to say "the outcome does not justify the actions taken to achieve said outcome", then how do you justify that the mere fortuitous outcome of no harm justifies the wrongful actions she took?

While I agree that a rule can be very unfair in that it unfairly treats unequal people as equals, it is still fair in that it does not specifically target any particular peoples for such inequality. Also, while I'm sympathetic to the need to individualize each case, there's no reason we shouldn't take the rule as far as it will go before applying case-by-case analysis based on totality of circumstances.

Not going to get into a whole rule v. standards debate here, so I'll just agree that we disagree .

I would argue that her actions have a great deal of potential for harm because engaging in behavior that would be construed as harassing by most definitions of ordinary language can lead to great harm and is a great harm in and of itself. This can be mitigated by the circumstances as you have argued, but such mitigation does not negate her moral culpability aspect of it - only the outcome itself.

Finally, although I said I wouldn't argue the whole rule v. standard thing, let me just say something about the murder analogy:
In cases of high social condemnation and corresponding punishment, especially murder, wouldn't you rather have a strict rule than a standard? Yes, although we look at the circumstances of each case as they fit the rule, we also need a very clear rule for such high-stake judgements. Anything less introduces arbitrariness in a case that could ultimately be the difference of redemption, life, death, or any number of extreme punishments.

Furthermore, people should have fair notice of what the rule is to be able to conform their behavior to it. If you were to leave "murder" to only a case-by-case basis, no one would ever be sure whether their behavior would be considered murder or otherwise.

Finally, creating a rather vague standard also gives a lot of discretion to whoever's making the judgement. It can introduce astronomically high decision costs AND error costs--it can not only create arbitrary randomness, but also can introduce discrimination and invidiousness into the decision. The opposite happens too of course, where you might err in the side of leniency based on sympathy when it's not necessarily warranted.

Before anyone else makes a comment saying "murder" is exaggerated, I'll just add the disclaimer that the above is a very general debate to be applied to the case .

To bring this analogy back to the instant case, if the presentation of Miyako's background wasn't so wonderfully done, would people have been as sympathetic to her and be as willing to excuse her actions? Probably not--but the facts have not changed, it is only our perception of them! Is this fair?

Also, I'll assert that even if somehow the outcome is determinative of the moral culpability in some sense (which I don't agree with as this entire post shows), her action intrinsically in and of itself is a wrongful act and a harm. 99-calls of that type fits the very definition of harassment, and harassment itself can be considered morally wrong even if it does not lead to further harm.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by taelrak

I agree that if we narrow in on just this case, pragmatically speaking, Miyako certainly is worthy of some sympathy. I still don't believe that this is enough to justify the actions she undertook in and of themselves though.

oh she deserves sympathy but a part of that case was brought onto herself...well the breakdown part anyway...kei is a dangerous enemy to make

Still, for her at the least, we all know that eventually she'll work around the problem and overcome it--and Hiro will be instrumental in doing that. Any temporary harm she causes will likely be only a necessary transition to ultimately redefining herself. I don't have an issue with that.

err...in english think you mean that any harm she causes herself will eventually lead to her situation being resolved when hiro finds out...

yep yep i agree ^^

However, I have a few objections to this 'wait and see' idea.

First, if grievous harm does occur, it's one thing to say you can't judge someone for actions they haven't committed, but it's another to say that you can't judge someone for wrongful actions they DID already commit, but which did not culminate in the intended purpose (hence we call it an "attempt"), and then they end up doing more actions in furtherance of that harm.

all i got was..."you cant judge her for something she hasnt done but it is a different matter for something she has done even though it wasnt an intended effect that lead on to similar cases being followed on..."

or something like that...

Second, this is again focusing very narrowly on the result of an instant case. While this may be good and fair if this is the only case we're interested in, we also tend to ignore the fact that these characters exist in a society not unlike our own, and each decision has external social effects. Shall we be sympathetic to her, without considering the effect her actions will have on others? Even more so, shall we not consider the potential precedents set by allowing such sympathy to be the determinative factor in judging her? It's a very slippery slope, and while we want to make some room for sympathy and "totality of circumstances" in each case, we also want to confine such sympathy within a certain degree of reasonableness.

i think you are taking this "stalking business" a bit too seriously...the sympathy we feel for her isnt because of her actions before hand (or whatever they may be) but rather it is because she was put in such a state through minimal fault of her own. it wasnt her fault that her family broke up that caused her to be so mentally unstable, even herself have no control over that. she could have avoided the whole "breakdown" episode if she was more neutral with kei but that is all in the past. right now she has lost her marbles in quite a deep manner - this is the sympathy most of us are giving her.

Third, in light of this being a debate more on morality than outcome, there doesn't seem to be a need to define culpability only in relation to outcomes when we're talking about states of minds. While that is certainly one point of view, do we also necessarily believe that any act, however immoral, is justified in light of the outcome? (Yes, this isn't a specific objection to the case at hand, but this is a point upon which this consequentialist argument necessarily rests.)

sorry...but this completely flew over my head...

dam you are hard to decode

[relentlessflame]

I guess all I would say is that I hesitate to judge Miyako's character too harshly (or Kei's too for that matter) because the writers are obviously "pulling her strings" -- you can feel the marionette syndrome at work in the show. Why were there 99 messages? Because that's the most the cellphone can display (and it's A LOT). And why did Kei delete the messages? Because she pledged to "wipe her out", and guess what -- symbolism achieved. That's not a bad thing -- I love the poetry and symbolism in this show, and the way it tugs at raw emotions. That being said, while it's interesting to analyse the actions and reactions of the characters, everything about this show is exaggerated for symbolism and effect (including the colours, art, animation, etc.). I'd hold Miyako to a more "human" standard of normalcy if it weren't for the fact that the anime is trying to stay on the edge of "surreal" (and that's what I like about the show).

[taelrak]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

i think you are taking this "stalking business" a bit too seriously...the sympathy we feel for her isnt because of her actions before hand (or whatever they may be) but rather it is because she was put in such a state through minimal fault of her own. it wasnt her fault that her family broke up that caused her to be so mentally unstable, even herself have no control over that. she could have avoided the whole "breakdown" episode if she was more neutral with kei but that is all in the past. right now she has lost her marbles in quite a deep manner - this is the sympathy most of us are giving her.

Yea, I do tend to push things to an extreme to better illustrate that certain factors don't have relevance to the point I'm making, and thus it would present a clearer model.

My problem with the 'fault" thing is exactly that - there were a lot of circumstances beyond her control, but there were also a lot of circumstances within her control. If we assign all her actions as the natural and inevitable result of those circumstances outside her control, then she would be absolved of any and all responsibility and "fault".

Hence, we need a standard to judge whether or not those circumstances outside of her control were indeed enough to excuse her of such "fault". While others have argued for a subjective standard saying her state of mind is the only thing we need to take into consideration when determining that link, I assert that the only way to fairly assess whether or not she should be primarily responsible for her actions (as opposed to being not at fault) is to measure her against what would a reasonable person who was exposed to the same circumstances she was exposed to have done (the objective standard).

dam you are hard to decode

Sorry, I'm writing half stream-of-consciously so the organization and structure may be a little wordy. Hope the summary above was clearer?

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I
That said, the series is already halfway, and the amount of discussions and participations are unfortunately not meeting the requisites for a sub-forum.

May I inquire as to these requisites?
I can't hardly find where I left off after just three or four hours away from the thread. Just how much activity does it need?

Originally Posted by Skyfall

She caused no harm, and had no potential in causing one given her situation, so why is she being judged as if she had ?

Because I dated a like Miyako once. Trust me, people here are not being overly harsh on her.
She hasn't caused anyone harm yet. Personally, I'm waiting for her logic to go: I'm being erased from Hiro's heart -> Kei is erasing me from Hiro's heart -> I'll erase Kei before she erases me. Good times await.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by taelrak

If ends do not justify the means, which I'll rephrase to say "the outcome does not justify the actions taken to achieve said outcome", then how do you justify that the mere fortuitous outcome of no harm justifies the wrongful actions she took?

You are assuming i am looking for justification for her actions, while i don't even acknowledge the fact her actions had potential to be harmful to anyone besides herself in the first place. In essence what you say is true and which i believe in myself, but i don't see a reason to place Miyako upon under said judgment call, because that would require of me to use the overly generalizing way of judging situations, which i am strongly against.

Yes, in contrast to acceptable norms her 99 messages were not reasonable, but labeling them as "wrongful action" is too strong of a word to use, because the implies the action was potentially harmful, which i don't believe it to be in said situation.

(on a side note - not once did i mention sympathy to Miyako or whether i actually do sympathize with her ... which i can't say i do (at least not to a noteworthy degree), because the situation felt too artificial for me to accept it as emotionally true, despite the writers intending it to be)

It is obvious we have fundamentally different views on said subject, so i think i will stop debating this, as we will just go in circles. Agree to disagree

EDIT: Best thing this episode offered, with no doubt, was seeing relentlessflame go hyper about it. I don't think i have ever seen him go so "zomg" over anything. That alone is a noteworthy event (now only need to figure out how to force him to get an avatar..)

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

May I inquire as to these requisites?
I can't hardly find where I left off after just three or four hours away from the thread. Just how much activity does it need?

No, you may not There are several conditions we consider when deciding if a show is forumworthy or not, and sadly, ef doesn't meet said conditions.

[AvatarST]

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

Personally, I'm waiting for her logic to go: I'm being erased from Hiro's heart -> Kei is erasing me from Hiro's heart -> I'll erase Kei before she erases me. Good times await.

That's quite a bold statement to make, no? We just have to wait to see how the events unfold.

Miyako's always taken her problems to Hiro anyway, not to Kei. It's Kei who is "showing her honesty in the wrong place".

Originally Posted by Skyfall

(now only need to figure out how to force him to get an avatar..)

Haha, as if that were possible!

He'd probably have trouble picking one anyway. The man loves everything.

[taelrak]

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

May I inquire as to these requisites?
Because I dated a like Miyako once. Trust me, people here are not being overly harsh on her.
She hasn't caused anyone harm yet. Personally, I'm waiting for her logic to go: I'm being erased from Hiro's heart -> Kei is erasing me from Hiro's heart -> I'll erase Kei before she erases me. Good times await.

Yea, it's no joke. Don't forget Hiro's side too. Wouldn't he just love to her her shadowing him 24/7 and filling up his mailboxes with mail all the time Of course I doubt it'd even go that far, but certainly that doesn't make the initial act (the messages) any less wrong.

I strongly feel that the presentation of her background did more to single-handedly evoke such mass sympathy than a comparable situation would merit - but that's just my opinion.

On the other hand, I wonder how many people here would change their views if the roles were gender-reversed, and it was Hiro who suddenly started flooding Miyako's mailbox with letters, sending her thousands of roses daily, showing up at her apartment uninvited with food, etc. etc. etc. Something to consider.

[taelrak]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

You are assuming i am looking for justification for her actions, while i don't even acknowledge the fact her actions had potential to be harmful to anyone besides herself in the first place. In essence what you say is true and which i believe in myself, but i don't see a reason to place Miyako upon under said judgment call, because that would require of me to use the overly generalizing way of judging situations, which i am strongly against.

Yes, in contrast to acceptable norms her 99 messages were not reasonable, but labeling them as "wrongful action" is too strong of a word to use, because the implies the action was potentially harmful, which i don't believe it to be in said situation.

(on a side note - not once did i mention sympathy to Miyako or whether i actually do sympathize with her ... which i can't say i do (at least not to a noteworthy degree), because the situation felt too artificial for me to accept it as emotionally true, despite the writers intending it to be)

It is obvious we have fundamentally different views on said subject, so i think i will stop debating this, as we will just go in circles. Agree to disagree

EDIT: Best thing this episode offered, with no doubt, was seeing relentlessflame go hyper about it. I don't think i have ever seen him go so "zomg" over anything. That alone is a noteworthy event (now only need to figure out how to force him to get an avatar..)



No, you may not There are several conditions we consider when deciding if a show is forumworthy or not, and sadly, ef doesn't meet said conditions.

That works.

Too bad the Miyako-Hiro part didn't have any memorable scenes that would capture well as an image (screen of text isn't that impressive as a still image unfortunately). Maybe you could convince him to adopt mechanized-Chihiro as an avatar

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by taelrak

I strongly feel that the presentation of her background did more to single-handedly evoke such mass sympathy than a comparable situation would merit - but that's just my opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I feel bad for the poor kid. But that doesn't change the fact that she is mentally unstable and an emotional powder keg.

On the other hand, I wonder how many people here would change their views if the roles were gender-reversed, and it was Hiro who suddenly started flooding Miyako's mailbox with letters, sending her thousands of roses daily, showing up at her apartment uninvited with food, etc. etc. etc. Something to consider.

People wouldn't be feeling any sympathy at all for Miyatarou. Rather, they'd be demanding his head and flocking to protect Hiroko before she gets raepd or something.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by taelrak

Yea, it's no joke. Don't forget Hiro's side too. Wouldn't he just love to her her shadowing him 24/7 and filling up his mailboxes with mail all the time Of course I doubt it'd even go that far, but certainly that doesn't make the initial act (the messages) any less wrong.

I strongly feel that the presentation of her background did more to single-handedly evoke such mass sympathy than a comparable situation would merit - but that's just my opinion.

On the other hand, I wonder how many people here would change their views if the roles were gender-reversed, and it was Hiro who suddenly started flooding Miyako's mailbox with letters, sending her thousands of roses daily, showing up at her apartment uninvited with food, etc. etc. etc. Something to consider.

well hiro doesnt seem like the person to care for anything...*cough*...

and you must know that there are a lot of cases for a lot of series where just the background on that character have caused some major shift in opinions - this isnt really anything unique or uncommon

her situation is pretty simple to understand - she is lonely and wants support, in come hiro who seems like a nice guy and voila! instant moral support...naturally she doesnt want to lose him ^^

and that last thought is just wrong...stalker san!! XD

last time i heard, male characters who breakdown like miyako are called emos (joke!)...

*cough* ^^

[taelrak]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

well hiro doesnt seem like the person to care for anything...*cough*...

and you must know that there are a lot of cases for a lot of series where just the background on that character have caused some major shift in opinions - this isnt really anything unique or uncommon

her situation is pretty simple to understand - she is lonely and wants support, in come hiro who seems like a nice guy and voila! instant moral support...naturally she doesnt want to lose him ^^

and that last thought is just wrong...stalker san!! XD

last time i heard, male characters who breakdown like miyako are called emos (joke!)...

*cough* ^^

Lol.

True, backgrounds do and should affect opinion. But in this case, I feel it was more presentation that affected perception rather than the background. And of course, in any case when we're judging a person for the morality of an act, it seems rather unfair to apply personal opinions to that judgment (insofar as anyone can really distance themselves from their own "opinions"). Moral judgments of blameworthiness are almost by definition opinionated of course, but we should at least temper those opinions with some objectivity.

Although i realize your post was humorous, but on a more serious note - you're probably right that it's very likely that if their roles were gender reversed, people would be more willing to call Hiro a stalker and be less forgiving. Besides the fact that this says a rather sad fact about society today in its perceptions of gender, it also supports the assertion that Miyako's background isn't the only or even main thing that people view when finding her with "no fault" despite their claims.

Ah well.

[Liingo]

Wow, some heavy discussion has been going on over Miyako's actions over the past day.

I'll be trying to respond to them as best I can, but obviously I'm going to be a little out of it as I wasn't here when the conversation began so apologies ini advance for anything that sounds weird.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I find quite weird that Miyako is THAT affected by kei's "i will wipe you out of Senpai's memories". I can understand some concern, but thinkin it would happen like this, while she was completely nonchalant thus far is not exactly consistent.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

It was Kei's ominous words + knowing Kei was trying to steal Hiro from her + Hiro not showing + Hiro not answering his cellphone or returning her calls that made think "I'm losing the most precious person in my life -- again!"

Klashikari, like relentlessflame said above, I believe that Miyako was nonchalant about the realtionship up till that point in episode 6 because there was no reason for her to be serious. It's only at the point of Kei's declaration that Miyako realises that being non-chalant about the situation is going to result in what would seem to be one of her greatest fears, being abandoned by someone who is important to her. Although Hiro is probably not aware of just how important he is.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

It might not be easy to bypass suffering objectively on one's own, but I think all it requires is just the forceful insertion of some perspective and a realization that the world isn't all about you. A good slap would do it. That's why I'm generally disapproving all of this sympathy towards Miyako that's resulted from this episode. Treating her nice now won't solve anything; what she needs is a cold hard slap.

While an outside perspective may have been able to point that out to her, from all indications, Miyako has essentially been a drifter, who due to her fears of abandonment hasn't been involved with many people up until this point in time. Skipping school repeatedly isn't the best way to develop relationships with people who could point things out to her. Hiro may have been able to do something that if he had found the messages on his phone, although that's a moot point now.

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

No kidding. It's obvious he'll eventually end up with Ke...

*Drink spew*
She may be the color for his world, but it's all forced and fake. The underlying problem here is that Miyako doesn't need Hiro - she just needs someone. She acts cute and reckless because she perceives that that's the kind of person that Hiro wants.

Could I ask why you believe that it's going to end up with Kei and Hiro. Right now I'm more convinved that it's going to be Miyako/Hiro due to the exact statement that Skyfall said yesterday.

While it's probably correct that Miyako just needs someone, the way in which she's been living has meant that she hasn't been approcahable by anyone. It's only really chance that Miyako has attached herself to Hiro, and I don't see her letting go anytime soon.

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Personally, I have a hunch that a possible "good end" path to the ChihiroXRenji storyline might go like this; the next day, Chihiro shows up and seems normal as usual, and Renji starts to get depressed about it all over again. But then Chihiro goes "Renji-kun, I feel I should be angry at you about something....what happened yesterday?". Turns out she didn't write it down in her diary after all, but she DOES remember emotions, thus giving Renji some new-found hope.

Well, just a prediction. Let's see if I score on this one.

Nice call. Definately possible. We'll have to wait and see if you're correct.

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

Personally, I'm waiting for her logic to go: I'm being erased from Hiro's heart -> Kei is erasing me from Hiro's heart -> I'll erase Kei before she erases me. Good times await.

Well as long as the last step doesn't involve her getting violent. I'm sure none of us want that to happen. Although from what the trailer for ef seems to imply, it is going to happen. Very soon as well since we're running out of episodes.

Originally Posted by taelrak

I strongly feel that the presentation of her background did more to single-handedly evoke such mass sympathy than a comparable situation would merit - but that's just my opinion.

It was very effective, you must agree on that. Otherwise this lenghty conversation wouldn't have taken place.

On the other hand, I wonder how many people here would change their views if the roles were gender-reversed, and it was Hiro who suddenly started flooding Miyako's mailbox with letters, sending her thousands of roses daily, showing up at her apartment uninvited with food, etc. etc. etc. Something to consider.

I'd say that all of us would be after his head if Hiro started that. Miyako isn't quite at that stage yet... Although it it possible that she's going to wallow in the depths of her mind for the next episode, making her into the stalker that you've been trying to portray her as. ( I personally don't feel she's there yet)

[grey_moon]

I don't think Miyako deserves or even needs absolution, but I also don't think she should be judge guilty for things she hasn't done. End of the day she is a sick person and needs help. Kei and Hiro's actions were the same as chucking a bucket of ice water over a person with the flu. They may not realise the effects of what they did, but if Miyako's actions are abnormal so are theirs.

Also it isn't just Miyako who needs help, Kei and Hiro could do with a good dose of help too, their behaviour in my opinion is not healthy and destructive to ppl around them and to themselves.

Hiro needs to learn to be more considerate to those around him and more importantly to himself. We discussed previously about how I don't consider him mature, well one of the reasons why is his lack of consideration.

Kei needs help period. She suffers from some serious guilt over her sister, but instead of moving past it, she is making the same mistakes as before over the way she deals with her feelings for Hiro, but this time around it is even more messed up.