Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Discussion / Poll

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by totoum

I can't really follow your extrapolation,yes he said there's nothing he can do about it but nowhere has he said that he actually cares or that he'd do something if he could.

He avoided the question when Kyoko brought it up and in his conversation with Madoka he said the only thing that he could tell Sayaka was that she was being reckless,not that it was wrong or something he disaprooves of.

Because his nature means that his stated goals are straightforward. His goals are to contract MG's. Why? To fight familiars/witches. Since MG's fighting each other is contrary to that goal, it wouldn't be something he desires or likes. Much like he's learned to hold some information back because the girls ended up better off, he's learned that he can't stop hotheaded and determined girls from doing what they want.

It basically has to do with understanding his nature, and once you do that, you can see where he's coming from. Homura gives you the biggest clues yet in this episode, in that he lacks human values. In addition to morals, that would include lying, deceit, and misdirection. He's basically a straightforward individual; the only knock against that is that he generally won't volunteer information. But then again, your computer doesn't volunteer information, either, unless prompted. He'll state his goal and work toward that, and nothing else matters.

My biggest problem, is with all the other Kyube conspiracy theories: they don't take into account how things would be different if he really did have a different motive. If his goal was to have MG's fight each other, then he'd take considerably different actions. He'd just shrug when Kyoko declared her intentions, if he really didn't care one way or the other; instead, he talks to her. He wouldn't say anything to Madoka about Sayaka, or perhaps just a "It's her choice." Instead, he told Madoka that there were things he could say, but that they wouldn't do any good (as close as you're gonna come to an emotionless creature saying he cares) Instead, he blatantly told Sayaka she lacked power compared to Kyoko, indicating it was unwise to fight.

Kyube is essentially a fairly simple creature. He lacks emotions, so the things you are stating such "stating that he cares" is impossible, because that takes emotion to do. He's never stated "I'd break them up if I could" because he's never been asked that question. If he's an artificial construct like a robot, then it makes even more sense. Much like a computer, you don't get information out of it until you enter the right inputs. He also has a part genie nature, in that his power can only be activated via another.

Some of this is my interpretation, but I've seen the signs in other shows I've watched. Once one recognizes that Kyube is a simple, logical creature, extrapolating his nature makes sense. It is, however, a nature that more emotional individuals have trouble understanding and/or empathizing with, simple because emotions interfere.

I will submit that, if he has simply been pretending all this time, my thoughts will change. But as of this moment, there has been nothing that would indicate he is more "mentally" than he currently shows.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Mentar

QB has shown an interest in exactly 2 things:

1) Getting girls to contract with him

2) Getting contracted girls to collect Grief Seeds

Anything else is irrelevant for him. He doesn't care if there's infighting between MGs. He doesn't care if normal people are killed. He's content as long as he can keep his little racket going.

You do not know any of what I bolded here. This is pure, unadulterated speculation on your part. This is just your take on Kyubey, which has not been even remotely close to proven.

Suppose that Kyubey does care if normal people are killed by witches. Suppose that he wants to stop that as much as possible.

Well, given his powers, but also given his limitations, what's the best way for him to achieve that?

1) Getting girls to contract with him.

2) Getting contracted girls to collect Grief Seeds... which means that magical girls stop witches, who are threatening the lives of normal people.

So, Kyubey is taking actions that, intentionally or unintentionally, is saving normal people from getting victimized by witches.

It certainly may be that he doesn't care about saving normal people.

Or it may be that he does care about saving normal people.

Even if he does care, there's no real reason why he would need to state that explicitly. Sayaka is going to try to save normal people regardless, it's not like Kyubey needs to play on her conscience. So will Madoka should she contract with Kyubey. Kyoko likely would laugh off Kyubey trying to talk her into saving more normal people. For all we know, they may have had that conversation before anyway.

Now, I'm certainly not convinced that Kyubey wants to save the lives of normal people. But by the same token, the anime hasn't completely ruled it out. I'm pretty sure that we haven't seen Kyubey clearly state that he doesn't care if innocent people die or not.

As was stated earlier on this thread, absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence.

His actions have led to loss and suffering for all girls dealing with him (even Mami made clear that her life which seemed to be saved by QB was terrible).

If Mami had not contracted with Kyubey, her life would have ended right then and there.

She never would have known the happiness that she felt from getting to meet and befriend Madoka. Mami's life being extended gave her a few more happy moments in life.

Not a single time has he helped a girl in trouble.

Not directly no. But what would you have him do? He's a tiny little critter that seems almost powerless aside from his ability to create magical girls, eat grief seeds, and cause pain to a magical girl through her soul gem.

There doesn't appear to be anything he can do to fight witches directly, or to physically break up magical girls fighting with one another.

Compare that to Homura, whose warnings have proven to be correct every single time, and who has repeatedly saved the girls in trouble.

We don't know if this is true or not. We do not know what will happen if Madoka becomes a magical girl, and most of Homura's warnings are about precisely that.


At the moment, I'm inclined to think that Homura is well-intentioned, but also that she may be misguided (i.e. she may be misjudging what's going to happen if Madoka becomes a magical girl). Homura may simply have unfounded fears (i.e. "This girl doesn't have the personality needed to be a magical girl. I absolutely can't let her become one, or she'll just get herself easily victimized, which could nastily empower a witch given her innate power").

At the moment, I'm inclined to think that Kyubey is pretty much morally neutral, and is carrying out his job as though he was a computer program. Even so, one could argue that, on the whole, his approach is of net benefit. Yes, that will clearly depend on what the exact relationship between a magical girl and a witch is. But as long as that is clouded in mystery, so are a lot of other things.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

A true Monkey's Paw is when the means used to grant a wish is one that makes the wish regrettable. It would be like if Kamijo's hand had been healed by replacing it with... a healthy and functioning monkey's paw.

If you reduce "Monkey Paw" to this narrow and irrelevant detail, then fine - Sayaka's outcome was no "true" MP. Kyoko's outcome still was. But since not even the term MP was mentioned in the show, it's so TOTALLY pointless to discuss it. The wishes have brought the MGs nothing but misery and suffering, THAT is what's relevant.

Even Homura admits that Kyubey is selling actual "miracles", with all the positive connotation that this word holds.

Just too bad that there ARE no positive connotations in the end. Which is why Homura is desperately trying to ensure that Madoka does not make the same mistake.

Well, one could argue that she should have wished for him to fall in love with her, then.

Maybe she should have. But the fact that she ignored Mami's explicit warning and the fact that QB didn't care to remind her doesn't absolve QB from peddling a sucker deal in my eyes. And this lawyeristic "neener neener neener, you didn't ask and you should have wished for something else" has a pretty nasty undertone.

To your credit, you have been very bold in putting yourself out there, and making numerous speculations. It gives us a lengthy record that can be evaluated in retrospect, essentially.

So, let's look at some of your speculations one by one.

That's a cute way to put it. "Some" of them. Strangely all those relevant ones where I was proven right were omitted (e.g. Mami not being resurrected, Sayaka wishing for Kamijo's health in the hope of love which is gonna be crushed etc). But fine.

Here you argue that Madoka is going to be a central active player, and that she's playing the role of Faust. In fairness, you're probably half-right. If this anime is an analogue to Faust, then Madoka is likely playing the role of Faust, yes. However, Madoka hasn't exactly been a central active player in this for a few episodes now.

I stand by what I wrote - Madoka isn't Gretchen, but will play THE key role in the resolution.

Here you make a lot of predictions. None of them have been proven false yet, but none of them have been proven true either.

1) Madoka and Homura have met before in the past - they know each other (99%)

I stick to that completely.

2) Madoka has been a Magical Girl in the past (66%)

Still stick to that completely. 66% feels about right.

3) Madoka's wish as a Magical Girl has been for a great mother and a loving family (50%)

I'd have to reduce that now, because the show seems to indicate time jumping. Also, like I wrote elsewhere, there's also the option that the family came to be as the result of speculation 4 (see below). But if time jumping is possible, then the family might be just "normal" in the current timeline. So, downgrade to 25% if Homura is included as valid wishing person, less if not.

4) Homura's wish as a Magical Girl was for Madoka to STOP being a Magical Girl (20%)

I still think this is a positive-expectation bet for me, by now I'd give it 25%

5) Extremely blatant pure speculation guess: Madoka's eventual miracle wish will be a reset. (5%)

At the moment, I do suspect that there's a good chance that the final "opponent" will be the MG system in some way.

Here you made a few different predictions. You argued that you were 66% sure that Mami knows or at least suspects that witches with grief seeds are actually fallen magical girls.

I'll concede that one as wrong. When I wrote this speculation after ep2, I was more suspicious of Mami due to her obvious intention of recruiting the girls, but this was credibly explained as extreme loneliness. We'll never know for sure, but it seems that she simply didn't know.

All other parts of this prediction (The nature of the MG racket, MGs turning into witches, MGs being unable to stop being MGs) are still "on", and in fact became very likely or certain already.

You also wrote "Remember the wonderful family life of Madoka in ep1? Prepare for some major ruins. Should Mom be promoted to lead the company, it’s going to become very ugly. Mark my words." Well, no major ruins when it comes to Madoka's family yet, and you made this prediction quite some time ago. In fact, Madoka's family has been shunted into the background, big time. The whole plotline of Madoka's mom wanting to lead the company has been completely dropped, or at least left hanging for several episodes now.

So do you want to bet against me that this aspect will be dropped? I do have a lingering suspicion that especially the behavior of her mom will become relevant when the Sayaka arc is over.

Long story short, while I will give you credit and say that your more general predictions of "It's going to get darker. It's going to get darker." have been generally true (albeit in a slow and gradual manner) your more specific predictions are very hit-and-miss.

So far, I see one miss (Mami, see above). The rest is still in the running, and many of them have become much more likely. I'm quite fine today with the odds I gave back then.

Am I going to assume a specific worst-case scenario? No, not at all. A lot of the specific worst-case predictions simply haven't come to pass, and at least some of them (such as the monkey's paw catch) likely never will.

I never even mentioned "monkey paw", that's none of my predictions. But the wishes of MGs have a strange tendency to backfire, don't they? Always those coincidences...

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Mentar

If you reduce "Monkey Paw" to this narrow and irrelevant detail, then fine - Sayaka's outcome was no "true" MP. Kyoko's outcome still was. But since not even the term MP was mentioned in the show, it's so TOTALLY pointless to discuss it. The wishes have brought the MGs nothing but misery and suffering, THAT is what's relevant.

You are still misquoting what a Monkey's Paw is. I even quoted from the wiki entry for you, but then again, you aren't looking at my posts, so I'll let someone else pass it on. Any negativity, is the result of the girls themselves... not the wish.

"Mr. White wishes for £200. Their son is killed by machinery at his company, and they get compensation of £200.

Ten days after they bury Herbert, Mrs. White, almost mad with grief, asks her husband to wish Herbert back to life with the paw. Reluctantly, he does so. After a delay, there is a knock at the door. Mrs. White fumbles at the locks in an attempt to open the door. Mr. White knows, however, that he cannot allow their son in, as his appearance will be too horrific."

Monkey's Paw wishes fulfill the wish, but not in the way you expected, and usually in horrific fashions. We've seen none of that in Madoka. Mami got to live, Kamijou's hand was healed without any catches, and Kyoko got people to show up at her dad's church.

It was the actions of Kyoko that led to her wish breaking down; if she had said nothing, then things would have continued. And despite Sayaka's current situation, it has nothing to do with the context of her wish. Regardless of what happens with Kamijou, his hand is still healed. Sayaka got her wish, exactly the way she intended. Sure, she would have liked him falling in love with her, but she specifically didn't wish for that.

So the bad things that are happening, are the fault of the girls themselves, unconnected with the wish. Homura herself said what Kyube offers are true miracles. Of course, you said this in response:

Just too bad that there ARE no positive connotations in the end. Which is why Homura is desperately trying to ensure that Madoka does not make the same mistake.

So, Kamijou being able to play the violin again, bringing joy to himself and his friends and family, is not a positive connotation? Being able to attend school again, with a brighter outlook on life?

If anything, the show is trying to tell us that, regardless of a miracle or not, your happiness is dependent upon how well you work for it, and how much you're willing to fight. Becoming an MG is a downside, sure, but that was known in advance. The only reason Sayaka isn't with Kamijou, is that she feels she can't be with him. So it's on her, and has nothing to do with the wish.

The rest of your post deals with speculations that you're sticking to, and we've hashed before, so I won't address that. I just wanted to point out that MG wishes aren't Monkey Paws at all. Any negativity, is the result of the girls themselves... not the wish. If you had instead argued that, because it is a cynical universe that idealism and good intentions are punished, you'd have a fairer point. I'll leave this reasoning up so others can see exactly where the weakness of your arguments lie, and then are able to make up their minds themselves.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Mentar

If you reduce "Monkey Paw" to this narrow and irrelevant detail, then fine - Sayaka's outcome was no "true" MP. Kyoko's outcome still was. But since not even the term MP was mentioned in the show, it's so TOTALLY pointless to discuss it. The wishes have brought the MGs nothing but misery and suffering, THAT is what's relevant.

This simply isn't true.

For a time, Kyoko was very happy to see the outcome of her wish.

Mami's wish gave her a second chance at life, and lead to some very happy moments between her and Madoka. Even overall, Mami likely benefited from her wish. Either way, she dies a tragic grizzly death. But by making the wish that she did, her life was extended, and she did get to have happy moments of new friendship.

Sayaka was extremely happy in that one rooftop scene during Kamijo's violin recital.

Now, we've seen the effects of most of the wishes sour nastily over time, but is that because of problems with the wish system, or is that because of failings in the people who made the wish?

Just too bad that there ARE no positive connotations in the end.

Tell that to Kamijo.

Which is why Homura is desperately trying to ensure that Madoka does not make the same mistake.

There's a wide variety of possible reasons for why Homura is doing this.

Maybe she should have. But the fact that she ignored Mami's explicit warning and the fact that QB didn't care to remind her doesn't absolve QB from peddling a sucker deal in my eyes. And this lawyeristic "neener neener neener, you didn't ask and you should have wished for something else" has a pretty nasty undertone.

I can't speak for you, but I believe in personal responsibility. I believe that people should be held accountable for their own actions and choices. That would definitely include a wish, of all things.

That's a cute way to put it. "Some" of them. Strangely all those relevant ones where I was proven right were omitted (e.g. Mami not being resurrected, Sayaka wishing for Kamijo's health in the hope of love which is gonna be crushed etc).

I didn't go combing the entire board for every post you made. I made basic searches for posts by you in the Spoilers and Speculations, and General Discussion, boards, and I took the first posts of yours I found that contained lengthy lists of speculations.

I stand by what I wrote - Madoka isn't Gretchen, but will play THE key role in the resolution.

You didn't just say "central", you also said "active". Well, she hasn't been terribly active lately.

All other parts of this prediction (The nature of the MG racket, MGs turning into witches, MGs being unable to stop being MGs) are still "on", and in fact became very likely or certain already.

That's just your opinion. My point is that most of your specific predictions have been neither confirmed, nor proven false. So you haven't really earned any right to be talking about how right you've been. You may yet be proven wrong on an awful lot.

So far, I see one miss (Mami, see above). The rest is still in the running, and many of them have become much more likely.

And at least one, by your own admission, has become less likely, and there's also not many clear-cut hits out of those three posts I linked to. Your prediction record is respectable, but far from infallible.

You have not earned the right to say "Look how right I've been in all my predictions! So everybody else should share my take on what's going to happen next, and everybody should share my take on every character in this show."

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You do not know any of what I bolded here. This is pure, unadulterated speculation on your part. This is just your take on Kyubey, which has not been even remotely close to proven.

I'd call it "observations". If you can give one shred of evidence to the contrary, please do so - with episode and timecode.

Not directly no. But what would you have him do? He's a tiny little critter that seems almost powerless aside from his ability to create magical girls, eat grief seeds, and cause pain to a magical girl through her soul gem.

There doesn't appear to be anything he can do to fight witches directly, or to physically break up magical girls fighting with one another.

He can do miracles, so the notion of "he's only a little cute fluffy bunny" doesn't really convince me. It's the same as above: He's never shown to try, but strangely all his actions seem to create showdowns and crises for MGs and normal people. I find it impressive that all these strange coincidences fail to register with you.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This simply isn't true.

For a time, Kyoko was very happy to see the outcome of her wish.

Yes. FOR A TIME. The first usage of hard drugs is said to make people very happy, for a time, too. And then, they kill you.

What counts is the eventual outcome. And so far, they have made no MG happy. But that's surely just one more bad coincidence.

I can't speak for you, but I believe in personal responsibility. I believe that people should be held accountable for their own actions and choices. That would definitely include a wish, of all things.

Spoken like a true lawyer. And I hope that QB will face some day of reckoning someday, to take personal responsibility. You really have no problem with what happened to Sayaka? "You didn't ask" is enough for you? Okay.

That's just your opinion. My point is that most of your specific predictions have been neither confirmed, nor proven false. So you haven't really earned any right to be talking about how right you've been. You may yet be proven wrong on an awful lot.

Sure. We'll never know until the show is over. But so far, I maintain that those parts which WERE shown so far and how the show DID progress follow the predicted direction very closely. For example, I remember how people were taking potshots at me when Urobuchi Gen added the "Sayaka has no regrets" episode showing her glorious start as MG. And all of a sudden we're completely back on the expected track. So forgive me if I have some confidence in my idea of this show's general direction.

That aside, it's really not about me here. I really wonder how much of your tenacious defense of QB is born from true conviction, and how much from refusal to be proven wrong in an argument where you invested alot of energy (an effect I am subject to, myself). Still, all these "coincidences" really don't bother you?

Well, I guess ep8 will give us some more clues soon.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Dharma

Throw for 101m with single finger is quite a feat by itself
It is not a death blow - just incapacitation. Easily achieved by use of teargas - on non zombie girl of course.

I did not think i would need to explain why its a death blow because its very obvious but i will do it here.

Steps
i) get gem beyond 101m
ii) body collapses
iii) Attacker is safe. Choose method
a) Destroy gem
b) Destroy body

Comparison to tear gas
i) Spread of tear gas
ii) Movement out of tear gas
iii) Amount of exposure required before tear gas full effect

Seriously do not make me have to explain such things.

Originally Posted by Dharma

Yes I do. But situation by itself is not so good. Death is not a remote possibility. Hence, to present an issue it must be something worse than death. It very well can be. It even seems likely. As likely as Mamis revival.

Eh did i say it was worse than death? Please quote where i said that.

If you cannot quote where i said that, please understand this: I pointed out the effects of darkening does not lie in just a reduction of magic power as the gem itself is the soul

Originally Posted by Dharma

Not retirement - death. Death was the only way out before. It still is. Nothing changed.

So you accept that death in 100 years is different from death in 10,000 years with enforced work required?

Originally Posted by Dharma

One death case. One soulgem destroyed. So yeah. Her soul gem would not be trapped in the witch dimension. It would be destroyed. It is the only logical answer for now. We need more data to argue otherwise.

This is totally illogical from what has been explained. Let me point out the relevant facts
i) Body is a puppet
ii) Vital part is the soul gem
iii) Destruction of body != destruction of soul gem
iv) Soul gems cannot move by themselves

So if Mami's body is destroyed but her soul gem is not, her soul gem would lie on the floor of the witch dimension. Can she be destroyed by the witch? Yes but only if the witch attacks the soul gem. If not it will lie there as was shown on the Sayaka truck scene

Originally Posted by Dharma

If you dismember non zombie girl she would be incapacitated. Where is advantage of not having soul gem?

She would be in pain not incapacited. Movement is still possible even if all the MS can do is roll on the ground, hence attempts to evade further attacks is still possible. Limited retaliation is also possible.

Once the gem is outside control range, no movement is possible. No resistance is possible. You are a sitting duck

Originally Posted by Dharma

Not very compelling threat. Yes you can incapacitate me, but that is all. Why should I care?

Because i can control when you have control of your body. Step 100m, step 101m repeat. Not convinced? I would then let you wander in the park naked and toy with you. Step 100m, step 101m. Not convinced? I would then strip and throw to the hobos. While they gang rape you, step 100m, step 101m.

Plenty more ideas

Originally Posted by Dharma

She doesn’t feel pain. How? Sure there are ways but they as easily would work on non zombie girl as well. It is more like knowing secret and blackmailing then compelling. And being mg is a secret by itself.

Compelling depends on the strength of the material used to compel. In this case, its your life. Perhaps you feel a video of the person having sex is a more compelling material than your life?

Originally Posted by Dharma

of course there is no such scripture but it is exactly why priests exists.

Sorry priests do not know what your god is thinking. So what they say does not have any weight in evidence. If you feel differently, ask the priest exactly why anyone you know who died of illness had to get ill and die. If they do not exactly know, they do not know what your god is thinking

Originally Posted by Dharma

You did say that it is flaw so yes. You did say it. You must prove than soulgem cannot be strong for it to be flaw. As for now it is just your imagination running wild.

You really failed in reading that post didn't you. Here is what i wrote. Note the part bolded. Now please tell me what does "Unless" means.

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

vii) Unless the soulgem is super strong (unlike Sayaka's blades which shatter alot), your soulgem becomes a big problem if you're slammed onto the ground or suffer a major impact

Originally Posted by Dharma

Spoiler for Momentum:

Kind of. Only true for resting objects. If object already has some momentum, than move vector will be changed by momentum transferred, but move direction will not necessarily be same as force direction. More, usually we must take into account gravity of Earth. It complicates things even more unless we just dropping objects.

Force corresponds to change of momentum. And both are vectors. You can apply force in such manner that only direction of momentum will be changed. Force even can decrease momentum. For example, when you decelerate car, cars momentum decreased by friction force. Other important factor is time. Increase in force can be negated by decreasing time that force getting applied leading to the same (or lower) net result in momentum change.

So you're entire point against the idea of momentum is that the forces are in direct opposition...

You have lost the context of the entire point haven't you. Here are the relevant parts.

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Quote:
iv) Depending on where you wear your soulgem, seperating it from you would be as easy as chopping off a limb.

Originally Posted by Dharma

And throwing it away. Again, only marginally easier than direct attack on non zombie girl.

You decided that you needed to throw the limb away when i pointed out it just needed to be chopped off. I pointed out momentum of the chop itself would provide the force needed to move the chopped limb.

Please, do keep in mind what was actually being talked about. I would like to not have to remind you.

[Silverwyrm]

Originally Posted by Mentar

I

Yes. FOR A TIME. The first usage of hard drugs is said to make people very happy, for a time, too. And then, they kill you.

What counts is the eventual outcome. And so far, they have made no MG happy. But that's surely just one more bad coincidence.

Sayaka didn't "take drugs to feel happy" unless you can somehow take drugs and make someone happy.

Sayaka's wish was not for herself but for someone else. It wasn't a wish made to make her but Kamijo, which it has done exactly that so far. Even if Sayaka becomes unhappy or even dies due to being a MG, it in no way proves her wish was unfulfilled or had a nasty catch (aside from becoming a MG which was known)

We have three wishes so far that we know details of. Mami's wish worked just fine, she eventually died as seems to be eventual for all MG's seeing as they fight for their life every day. She stated herself she was happy to have another chance to continue her life even if she had to fight she was fine with that as she wouldn't be alive if she didn't. She also didn't die in pain I'd say that was pretty damn quick.

We have Kyoko's wish, which worked perfectly at first, but given the nature of some religions and magic, it was something that should have been considered before, not to mention she used her wish to effect other people's minds into believing. Everything about how she made her wish was just wrong when you think about it.

Sayaka's wish did exactly what she wanted it too, there have been zero catches. Her current state is due to her own mind and her own feelings on the matter of her being a MG now, but her wish has remained entirely unaffected so far and doesn't seem likely to change.

[Scrooge McDuck]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Steps
i) get gem beyond 101m
ii) body collapses
iii) Attacker is safe. Choose method
a) Destroy gem
b) Destroy body

Eh, I need to ask. In all these "attacking the Soul Gem" scenario, who is the opponent? A normal human? A Witch? Another magical girl?

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

If we're talking about combat survivability, it is impossible to argue that it is easier to cut off a body part and lob it 100 meters, while fending off a regenerating opponent who is still capable of fighting you, than it is to incapacitate a normal human enemy, I think this is obvious.

Please show me where regeneration happens. Very interested in that. Not plain healing of wounds. Regeneration of actual limbs. Also please tell me whether everyone has this incredible regeneration?

As replied to the previous poster, do actually go read what momentum is and how it would affect a seperated limb.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Similarly, the idea of ‘controlling’ a magical girl by taking hold of her soul gem is frankly ridiculous. First of all, you would have to constantly be (a stalker) within 100 meters of her to have any functionality. Disregarding the obvious limitations this alone would place on her use to you, the controller himself has to sleep sometime! Losing consciousness against an opponent with magical powers and within a 100 meter vicinity, something you have to do eventually, can anyone honestly believe it’s even possible you won’t get your ass pwnt and the gem returned to her? Unless, that is, you are suggesting a one time use of her which is absurd considering the impossibe improbability of obtaining a soul gem and knowing how to use it in the first place.

You do know that the 100m is in 3 dimensions? aka height is involved? I really hope i don't have to explain further though the next point gives me little hope of that

As for the controller sleeping, i don't understand why something so obvious requires explaination. Have you actually thought about any of this using basic logic? Let me help

i) MS goes dead if Soul gem >100m
ii) MS comes back after Soul gem <=100m
iii) You need to sleep

What do you do?

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Finally, to comment on the religious argument which has been brought up here. Metaphysical insecurity is certainly the only argument against Soul Gems carrying any degree of merit objectively, but then objectively the default religious understanding of ‘death’ would be 'oblivion' over ‘heaven’ or ‘reincarnation’ fundamentally. While the thought of your soul physically exposed does indeed bring up vulnerability over possible metaphysical outcomes, religious associations seem out of place here, particularly for girls so far whose motivations thus far seem very much grounded in more immediate aspects of reality. I think a general default assumption that, Soul Gem or not, in this universe death will lead you into oblivion, is by far the most reasonable expectation.

Please do provide any evidence you have of the following statement
"I think a general default assumption that, Soul Gem or not, in this universe death will lead you into oblivion, is by far the most reasonable expectation."

Because i see nothing supporting it. Nothing is implied, nothing is said. If death=oblivion is the default religious view, why would the MS be concerned at all about the soul gem? Indeed the idea of "soul" would not even exist. Only mind and body, yet obviously the concept of "soul" is referenced repeatedly in 6 and 7

[Seihai]

@Silverwyrm

I can't quite agree on the drug example myself but do take into account what Mentar was trying to say. They were happy >for a time<, but that is all there is to it. The outcome in all cases was ultimately unexpected and not positive. I keep referring to that amusing line of Kururugi Suzaku: "The method isn't what is important, it's the result!" (after the Damocles explosion where shitload of people died)

Kyokou's wish had a positive start, but it soon went downhill at some point. And it can still become worse.

Sayaka's wish has positive effects, for example: Madoka and Hitomi didn't die, Kamijou's arm was healed. The outcome for the wish itself however is right now backfiring at Sayaka's initial satisfaction and she thus suffers for the known reasons, see her mental breakdown. But I admit we don't know how it will continue so let's wait for episode 8.

Homura's wish is not known at this point but it's safe to assume she is still trying to achieve something as a result of her wish. Whether she will be able to is questionable but at this point we can see that her "method" does not have positive effects on Homura herself. MG is serious business, heh.

Mami's initial wish was not a bad thing, but she suffered throughout her life. However in this case I can agree that her last moments were filled with happiness so the outcome was ultimately good. Well, that didn't help the situation though so I'm not sure that counts.

[Kaijo]

All this "soul gem hostage" stuff is interesting theoretical stuff, but it doesn't seem to hold up in practice. MG's keep their gem in a ring on their finger, and usually only bring it out to transform, at which point it may not be so easy to remove. You'd have to cut it off Kyoko's chest, or Sayaka's belly for example, and if you can do that, odds are you're strong enough to beat the MG anyway.

Originally Posted by Vanish

The outcome in all cases was ultimately unexpected and not positive.

Kyokou's wish had a positive start, but it soon went downhill at some point. And it can still become worse.

Sayaka's wish has positive effects, for example: Madoka and Hitomi didn't die, Kamijou's arm was healed. The outcome for the wish itself however is right now backfiring at Sayaka's initial satisfaction and she thus suffers for the known reasons, see her mental breakdown. But I admit we don't know how it will continue so let's wait for episode 8.

Mami's initial wish was not a bad thing, but she suffered throughout her life. However in this case I can agree that her last moments were filled with happiness so the outcome was ultimately good. Well, that didn't help the situation though so I'm not sure that counts.

Snipped some.

Consider: If Sayaka hadn't of made her wish, Hitomi and Madoka would have died and Kamijou would have descended further into depression. To Sayaka, that would have have been horrible. So, even if we say bad things happened because of the wish, it was a no-win scenario: bad things would have happened either way.

Thus, the wish had nothing to do with it.

If Mami hadn't of made her wish, she was doomed to die, too. "Bad" outcome either way.

If Kyoko hadn't of made her wish, their family would continue starving, and death would't have been far off. Perhaps her father would have gone into a depression and killed himself. Bad result either way.

So the argument for the wish having something go bad, is ultimately irrelevant. You'd be better off arguing that these girls were screwed from the get go no matter what they did. If you consider the wish resulted in bad things, then you need to honestly consider what would have happened had the wishes not been made. When you do, this line of reasoning that "wishes have bad things" falls apart.

Again... all the girls' wishes were granted without any negative means. Any bad things that happened afterward, were the result of the girls' own thoughts and actions, and not directly related to the wish itself. Thus suspecting the wish as the culprit, is tenuous at best.

[Silverwyrm]

Originally Posted by Vanish

@Silverwyrm

I can't quite agree on the drug example myself but do take into account what Mentar was trying to say. They were happy >for a time<, but that is all there is to it. The outcome in all cases was ultimately unexpected and not positive. I keep referring to that amusing line of Kururugi Suzaku: "The method isn't what is important, it's the result!" (after the Damocles explosion where shitload of people died)

Kyokou's wish had a positive start, but it soon went downhill at some point. And it can still become worse.

Sayaka's wish has positive effects, for example: Madoka and Hitomi didn't die, Kamijou's arm was healed. The outcome for the wish itself however is right now backfiring at Sayaka's initial satisfaction and she thus suffers for the known reasons, see her mental breakdown. But I admit we don't know how it will continue so let's wait for episode 8.

Homura's wish is not known at this point but it's safe to assume she is still trying to achieve something as a result of her wish. Whether she will be able to is questionable but at this point we can see that her "method" does not have positive effects on Homura herself. MG is serious business, heh.

Mami's initial wish was not a bad thing, but she suffered throughout her life. However in this case I can agree that her last moments were filled with happiness so the outcome was ultimately good. Well, that didn't help the situation though so I'm not sure that counts.

All of the "bad stuff" happening with the witches is pretty much directly related to the being of magical girl, which is the known price, the wishes are not being turned against them, or being granted in a haphazard or dangerous manner. the only one that could be argued in that case is Kyoko's but I feel it is a bad result of using magic to control people's minds to follow religion. That can't end well.

They MG's are not ending well due to the nature of their price(which again, is the known price), but generally their wishes seem just fine. Sayaka's breaking down is entirely due to her inability to accept her current position, I do not see or feel any outside influence warping her mind or causing her to break down. She is simply struggling to accept her position, which homura and kyoko are not bothered by the exact same position.

Simply put, in all cases except Kyoko we know of, none of their suffering has anything to do with the wish. All I am trying to say is, the wish/miracle seems true and is not be the cause of the future woes they will almost certainly face, unless it is made poorly.

[Kaijo]

And even then, Kyoko's wish fell apart because she told her father. If she had said nothing, then there was every reason to suspect things would have gone on as normal. But even as Kyoko noted, she made her wish without understanding people's feelings, so it was a harsh lesson to learn.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Silverwyrm

Sayaka didn't "take drugs to feel happy" unless you can somehow take drugs and make someone happy.

Sayaka's wish was not for herself but for someone else. It wasn't a wish made to make her but Kamijo, which it has done exactly that so far. Even if Sayaka becomes unhappy or even dies due to being a MG, it in no way proves her wish was unfulfilled or had a nasty catch (aside from becoming a MG which was known)

And the Zombie part which was not known. I do see the point you're making, but try to see mine aswell: There is not ONE MG so far who found happiness. NOT ONE. Doesn't this sound peculiar to you?

I use the example of a drug dealer because this is what I suspect QB to be. The mechanism is very similar: Drug Dealers prey on unsuspecting, naive adolescents. They're offering something tempting and underline how cool it is. And hey, the first shot is for free, it's a miracle. Just _after_ taking them, many kids begin to realize that there are real downsides to taking drugs. And then it's too late - and in case of MGs, there's no way out at all.

Yes, all this is based on a couple of things which aren't proven yet. YET. But this is by far the most plausible perspective I can see, and it's consistent with all these strange coincidences. It's also making more sense on the storytelling meta-level.

So I guess we'll have to wait and see some more. But Urobuchi Gen would be a fool to decisively resolve this open question now. He'll continue to drop clues and leave it to us to pick them up - or to ignore them.

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Silverwyrm

All I am trying to say is, the wish/miracle seems true and is not be the cause of the future woes they will almost certainly face, unless it is made poorly.

Time to jump in...

No matter how precise, no matter how detailed you think a wish can be, it will always be imperfect. If you wish for immortality, then Kyubey might make all of eternity insufferable. If you wish for immortality with a happy life, then Kyubey might make everyone else around you suffer. If you stop that... well, Kyubey has all sort of answers.

To best explain it, a wish is only an endpoint. Getting to the endpoint is out of the wisher's control. The result can be specific and precise as the wisher wants, but there will always be unintended ways to reach that result.

Mami revived herself. But in exchange, she lived a life of loneliness and danger.
Kyoko made people follow her father. In exchange, her father's followers were zombies, and her father committed suicide.
Sayaka fixed her friend. In exchange, she feels miserable.

Think of any wish. I can always think of a way for that wish to go wrong, and still abide by your stated terms.

[Silverwyrm]

Not saying the wishes are perfect, as is obvious with kyoko's, not saying the MG's aren't ending unhappily. However, the wish itself is rarely, if ever, the cause of this. Saya Making Kamijo better did not make her a "zombie" or force her to fight, You could say the act of making the wish and the contract results in them becoming unhappy and/or dying, however the wish itself is NOT what is causing that to happen.

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Mami revived herself. But in exchange, she lived a life of loneliness and danger.
Kyoko made people follow her father. In exchange, her father's followers were zombies, and her father committed suicide.
Sayaka fixed her friend. In exchange, she feels miserable.

1) The wish didn't kill her family, the accident did. Having trouble keeping relations and the danger of the life of a MG is a constant among them all, it is their end of the contract and has nothing to do with the wish.

2) This is true, and it was her mistake. Using magic to alter people's minds to follow religion is simply a bad idea, it shows the wishes/miracles are not perfect and can turn wrong if chosen unwisely.

3) this is not a result of her wish, but of her contract, that is again a constant among ALL MG's, this is the same for all of them, half of it is something known to them before hand, though kyubey held some. Her misery is a result of her not being able to accept her position, again, NOT a result of her wish, but the contract that is a constant. Further, the cause of the misery is something certain other MG's after thought are not bothered by.

The contract is static, it isn't special or different for any of them, using the same symptoms of the same contract that does the same to them all and puts them in the same life of danger hardly proves that all the wishes go wrong.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Mentar

And the Zombie part which was not known. I do see the point you're making, but try to see mine aswell: There is not ONE MG so far who found happiness. NOT ONE. Doesn't this sound peculiar to you?

No. Because happiness is dependent upon you. Mami was happy after a fashion, because she got to live, and became happier when Madoka was planning to stick with her. Kyoko is happy, because she adjusted her viewpoint.

Happiness depends not upon circumstances, but upon your reaction to them. A poor man can be happy, while a rich man is not.

I use the example of a drug dealer because this is what I suspect QB to be. The mechanism is very similar: Drug Dealers prey on unsuspecting, naive adolescents. They're offering something tempting and underline how cool it is. And hey, the first shot is for free, it's a miracle. Just _after_ taking them, many kids begin to realize that there are real downsides to taking drugs. And then it's too late - and in case of MGs, there's no way out at all.

It's a bad analogy, because Kyube made sure they were aware of the dangers, and even had a "druggee" help explain everything.

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

No matter how precise, no matter how detailed you think a wish can be, it will always be imperfect. If you wish for immortality, then Kyubey might make all of eternity insufferable. If you wish for immortality with a happy life, then Kyubey might make everyone else around you suffer. If you stop that... well, Kyubey has all sort of answers.

You're deliberately stating that Kyube would deliberately make the wish have a bad side effect, when we have had no evidence of that. No one is questioning that there is some bad stuff, just that the wish was not responsible for that.

If Mami didn't make a wish, she was dead.
If Sayaka didn't make a wish, Kamijou would drop further into despair while Hitomi and Madoka would be dead.
If Kyoko didn't wish, their family would continue to starve, and perhaps the father would grow depressed.

If there are bad results whether you wish or not, then you can hardly place blame on the wish for bad results. The only argument one could make, is that it is more likely this universe just takes a crap on the girls regardless of what they do.

Edit: To sum up, by trying to say, "Hmm, isn't it interesting that they make a wish and bad things happen!?" is making the fallacy correlation without causation. It also ignores bad things happening to people like Hitomi and Madoka, who didn't make wishes, either.

[Silverwyrm]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Edit: To sum up, by trying to say, "Hmm, isn't it interesting that they make a wish and bad things happen!?" is making the fallacy correlation without causation. It also ignores bad things happening to people like Hitomi and Madoka, who didn't make wishes, either.

The way I look at it isn't so much "the wishes make bad things happen" but rather "Is there a wish truly worth this price?" As the contract is more or less, the cause of grief rather than the wish itself.

[Elestia]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

No. Because happiness is dependent upon you. Mami was happy after a fashion, because she got to live, and became happier when Madoka was planning to stick with her. Kyoko is happy, because she adjusted her viewpoint.

No, Mami was entirely not happy. Just because you live doesn't automatically mean that happiness is a given. And she mentions herself that she was not entirely happy with her new life either. In the scene where she was alone with Madoka in episode 3, she was telling her on how she had no time for friends, time for herself, and suffered from loneliness. Which is why she was trying to recruit Sayaka and Madoka into being MG's like her as well.

She even stated that given the chance, when she was on the verge of dying, she had second thoughts about it.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Happiness depends not upon circumstances, but upon your reaction to them. A poor man can be happy, while a rich man is not.

And a poor man can be unhappy, while a rich man can be happy as well. The values of the person helps determine how they find happiness. And as we're seeing right now, those circumstances are directly tied to their values, and were not satisfied, instead blatantly undermined. Granted, Kyoko and Sayaka didn't fully understand their values as well as they should, but then again they are all teenagers.

If you still say that a person can be happy, then I'd say that person is really in denial about their situation. Although, that doesn't mean one should gives up hope.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It's a bad analogy, because Kyube made sure they were aware of the dangers, and even had a "druggee" help explain everything.

Yes, he made them AFTER THE FACT took the drugs. In which case, many had little choice. Hell, even Mami or Kyoko weren't aware of the full circumstances of being MGs, soul gem anyone? If the fact hadn't been revealed by Madoka, we would have never known about that little "danger" and QB would have been perfectly fine about it. So I'm a bit confused on how you could say "even had a "druggee" help explain everything.", when clearly that wasn't the case. So you can't say they were made aware of the dangers.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And even then, Kyoko's wish fell apart because she told her father.

Actually, Kyoko said that her father eventually found about it.