2012-05-12, 17:19 | Link #302 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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Stuff seems "harder" because most of the Masters in FSN are n00blets, while the Masters in F/Z actually knew what they were doing and had clear goals. Quote:
Although I am not sure if you should cheer for them, or point and laugh at their competencies. |
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2012-05-12, 20:53 | Link #304 | |
Spoilaphobic
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 37
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Kiritsugu... killed his father, his mother and soon he will kill his wife too.
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2012-05-13, 03:32 | Link #308 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
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All Masters and Servants are similar to a degree, in spite of how often they seem to clash. That's one of the most curious and interesting aspects of the F/Z teams.
- Saber and Kiritsugu are both absolutists in their ideals, but they also place all of the burden on their shoulders and never feel the need to explain their actions to others, unless deeply inquired about it, which often leads to them ending up being misunderstood and hated by the very same people they wish to save and protect. - Archer and Tokiomi are both extremely proud and self-important and consider their view of the world to be an unquestionable truth. - Lancer and Kayneth both fight in order to be recognized by those whose acknowledgment they desire and remain loyal to those same people no matter what (his lord for Lancer and his fiancée for Kayneth). - Rider and Waver are both "fools" who ignore their human insignificance and aspire to deeds far greater than the small creatures they are. - Caster and Ryuunosuke are self-explanatory. - Berserker and Kariya have both descended unto madness and if Berserker is who the first ED makes him out to be, the circumstances surrounding that descent aren't entirely dissimilar either. - Assassin and Kirei is trickier, given how little we got to see of the former, but Kirei was pretty much like a shadow himself at first, hollow and joyless, so they fit well enough. - And of course, the latest team of Kirei and Gil is also rather self-explanatory. The Schadenfreude is strong in those two. |
2012-05-13, 11:13 | Link #311 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Also unlike Saber and Archer when he found out his path could very well lead to him ending up in his own personal hell, he did not back down and pretty much said so be it. |
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2012-05-13, 12:13 | Link #312 |
Crax
Author
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: MY
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Personally, I think you could say that after Fate's Route he followed his beliefs and continued on being a hero, and at the end of his journey he wasn't appreciated and executed by his own saved people. However, he died with a smile in the end.
But then his new life as a Cleaner of the World began. In Heaven's Feel he would never have turned into Emiya because he turned away from his own beliefs. In Unlimited Blade Works he swore that he would never feel regret, and with Rin looking over his path he still would've turned into Emiya, but not the one who felt regret but at peace. So yeah, it is most likely that in Fate's route, where the strongest miracle had shone brightly, was ultimately the tragic path that misled him into a state of despair.
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2012-05-13, 13:19 | Link #313 | ||
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Join Date: May 2012
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The possibilities are pretty much the same, nearly nonexistent. Quote:
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2012-05-17, 16:31 | Link #315 | |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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Since I don't want to risk any spoiler in the episode thread, half displacing a discussion I had:
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Whereas Kuzuki does serve as the anchor to Caster, the contract itself doesn't have this particular element that is naturally present with other Servant/Master pairing. And no, the CS Caster has are her own, as she is herself a magus. Kuzuki is not one, and doesn't even have any magic circuit, so inheriting Caster's previous master CS or given by the grail is an impossible scenario. Therefore, this point perfectly proves that Command Spells are -not- part of the contract (although they are proof that the grail acknowledge the magus as a Master). They are only part of what give the authority of the master towards the servant.
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-05-17 at 17:07. |
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2012-05-17, 17:04 | Link #316 |
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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well, what made us go that way was discussing this point: can Kayneth impose danger to Kiritsugu?
your point was that his presence is enough to maintain a servant, my point was: he needs to make a contract. my other question (which is spoiler too), if no contract was needed to person to provide mana, then why Emya Shiro needed to sleep with saber to provided mana for her due to his incomplete contract? |
2012-05-17, 17:14 | Link #317 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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And your point was supplemented that "he cannot make any contract without CS", which is rendered moot by this point.
I also brought the specific part that CS can be granted even if you have used all of them. Therefore, even if Kayneth was crippled to death (which wasn't exactly the case, since he still could roam around with his chair), he is theorically able to make another contract with a masterless servant. That possibility alone explains why Kiritsugu executed him (I don't care however weakened Kayneth is whatsoever: the discussion was solely about the reasoning behind it, as you kept claiming there wasn't any need for that, despite the whole motto of the masters are to kill each other, not merely incapacitate them). As for your second question: Shirou is not a full fledged mage. He wasn't really thought the basics, and went straight to his "speciality": reinforcement (albeit a side effect) and tracing. Heck, he wasn't the one initiating Saber's summoning, as it was basically a sheer amount of coincidence (Iri's "workshop", Avalon inside of him, etc) Rin even had to explain magecraft to him at some point. So no surprise the link between him and Saber was quite weak.
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2012-05-17, 17:20 | Link #318 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Netherlands
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2012-05-17, 17:25 | Link #319 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
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then you woud think a link with mage all his circuits busted would be strong?
really? link between rider and Mato was busted because he had no active circuits, he was unable to provide rider with any mana, why do think Kayneth would be able to provide with busted nonworking circuits? (not that we suppose that the grail gives him seals while that is unlikely) Quote:
she cant sleep with anybody except her master (or master to be if she is master-less). |
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2012-05-17, 17:33 | Link #320 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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And since when I did say he could be strong?
You make the assumption that servant would be picky with their masters, despite non archer class would have trouble to stay materialized if they don't have their masters. But interestingly enough, you bring Caster's case despite she sure made the worst choice of master there (infatuation was part of the equation, but simply speaking she was on the verge of disappearing, so she had no choice but use Kuzuki). That aside, if we assume Kayneth is left alive, so is Sola, which means Kayneth can once again performs his circus and use Sola as the prana provider. Also, remember that even if the magic circuit were wrecked by Kiritsugu, they are not destroyed: they are merely stitched badly together, which would impair his magecraft ability. By definition, even if the quality of the circuit is bad, you still can generate prana. So however crippled he became, he is "legit" for being a Master again, and I really doubt a servant would have any choice between that and disappear completely. Would he be as strong as before? Doubtful. Would he be another opponent to face? Yes if the circumstances are met, and thus having to deal yet with another servant, which is what you want to avoid at all cost. So eliminating any possible returning master is quite normal, and mentioned several times in both Zero and SN. And no, it isn't unlikely that the grail would choose Kayneth since the grail tends to choose Magus that were already chosen, along with the condition that one individual from each of the 3 great family is chosen. In fact, Kirei hardly was a "likely" choice either at the first glance.
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