[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Almazluverdis3]

Originally Posted by Digdri

I'm not try to justify any Fantasy perspective or whatever but just meant to address how the metaphoric implication from all thats attributed to Siestas killing is hardly consistent at all and most of it doesn't suggest shotguns were used in EP3 or at least not in the way the tales wants us to believe their murder were commited.

There IS another interpretation that at least fits to EP3 I thought of once but its a bit far fetched:
Siestas are just meant to contrast to the Stakes and how the murderers behave.

Siestas are calculating, efficient and professional even someway "emotionless" in their work.
Stakes take everything very personal with her connections to sins, are sometimes really amateurish or clumsy and not nearly as powerful. Besides they can get in danger and killed and fight some duels while Siestas are always overpowering enemies or fleeing really fast.

But as this is really not the topic of EP7, my overarching idea was if those multiple guns and the simultaneously introduced Siestas are just misinterpreted noise of the witch illusion it is most likely that Bern is just committing a follow-up error by also fitting this idea in her story. If EP7 is really meant to show us fan theories this makes even more sense.

Well yes, the Stakes are more emotional. Why? Because the represent FEELINGS. Of course, some are blunt in feelings and don't stray much away from their sins. But they still feel.

Spoiler for Annoying list time:

• EP2, when Satan said "Let me feel the pure bliss of piercing that warm warm chest of your's..." (Not really quoting that but you get the idea)
  
• EP3, When Belegphor took the bullet for Eva-B.
  
• EP4, all the stakes begging for their lives when Ange got pissed off.
  
  But the Seistas also have feelings, like when the following happened:-
  
• The expressed fear towards The Dragon King in most games.
  
• EP3, they ran away. Twice.
  
• 510 expressed fear when she found out Battler was over nine thousand.
  
  None the less, both groups had feelings.

[Digdri]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

Yeah, she was just there and explained everything we need to know. She did nothing when the adults killed each other and when Kyrie tried to kill her.
And it's funny, the controller of the bomb that can destroy half of the island is pretty simple, just ON and OFF (Heck, it doesn't even have the label to let people know which is on which is off)
It's just like the self-destruction button in many cliche stories.

Oh well... I'm getting Resident Evil vibes here with all those "No matter what happens we have to blow up the whole place where everything was playing out til now before the story ends for no logical reason and some countdown crap for tension."

Really smells like a troll. But Beatrice illusion as a some document, note or another letter in an envelope left their makes sense then. After all all thats attributed to Beatrice doing for the epitaph was taken from a text as well. And if someone really set up this "game" by giving that one letter to Maria to search for this place why not also have a last explanation left for the victorious person. ^^

[Digdri]

Originally Posted by Almazluverdis3

Well yes, the Stakes are more emotional. Why? Because the represent FEELINGS. Of course, some are blunt in feelings and don't stray much away from their sins. But they still feel.

Spoiler for Annoying list time:

• EP2, when Satan said "Let me feel the pure bliss of piercing that warm warm chest of your's..." (Not really quoting that but you get the idea)
  
• EP3, When Belegphor took the bullet for Eva-B.
  
• EP4, all the stakes begging for their lives when Ange got pissed off.
  
  But the Seistas also have feelings, like when the following happened:-
  
• The expressed fear towards The Dragon King in most games.
  
• EP3, they ran away. Twice.
  
• 510 expressed fear when she found out Battler was over nine thousand.
  
  None the less, both groups had feelings.

Well you are calling the Stakes a representation of feeling so easily but if those metaphors about the fantasy furnitures in the stories where really so unambiguous and clear cut we wouldn't need have of the discussion on the boards here. ^^ So I think treat this as fact is a bit careless in reasoning.
The story never really confirmed this. They still may for the most part represent the sins of the "victims" they strike down, the emotional involvements of the murder, the real icepicks as weapons or the involvement of specific persons in the murders or Anges/Marias fantasy friends in each individual case there get discussed.

But about the emotions of the Siestas: Thats why I wrote "emotionless".
They show a large number of emotional reaction and quirks and you even forget to mention how they run to mama Lia because Kinzo was such a bad bad meanie

But I was talking about how their are shown executing all the killing. They are essentially really pro about it. They don't question their tasks. They show much more cold-blooded and planned actions then the Siestas, are much more neutral to the whole stuff going on about the witches and most of all have this weird analogy to computers.

But this character comparison also is somehow besides the point actually WAS only how they may not directly represent weapon types but more likely some feats about the murderers (like e.g. how morality, intents, capability to execute the murders etc. compare in different stories). And you seem to agree on this but for me thats just one of many view point on this topic and sadly its also a really weak analogy with little facts to gain for the howdunnit which presents some of the bigger problems missing in EP3 and also EP7 if you don't believe the shotgun massacre version.

[MeoTwister5]

Last summaries for today.

Starts after the intro video up until Bern declares the game has begun.

Spoiler for Summaries:

Temple Somewhere (Rokkenjima?)
- Will is entering a temple while it rains outside. Will signs in the log book of visitors that Kanon presents him. This is someone'w wake.
- Will wasn't sure of what happened here and Kanon seems surprised. Will presents a letter to Kanon. Kanon lets him inside the main funeral hall.
- People are inside in mourning. Kinzo is seen crying for Beatrice who has apparently died(?). Members of the Ushiromiya family and servants are inside. Natsuhi and Genji try to console him.
- The adults say they haven't seen him cry since their mother died.
- Will approaches the altar and coffin, turning some heads in the process. The coffin is lined with gold roses.
- The coffin is empty save for a book. The book's front has an inscription: "To my beloved Beatrice. October 5, 1986"
- He places a gold rose on the coffin. Krauss introduces himself as the eldest son and asks who he is.
- A blonde haired... person introduces itself as Leon Ushiromiya to Will. He inspects Leon.
- Genji says preparations are complete in the anteroom and calls everyone in the family in.
- Will wonders why Leon calls Krauss father when Jessica is supposed to be their kid. Leon says Jessica is the younger sister.
- Leon asks what Will is doing here and what his relationship to the deceased is. Will says it's a long story, but Leon wants to know.
- The family has moved to the anteroom. The funeral hall is empty. A girl's voice is heard in the room speaking about the Will and the

Inquisition
- Bern appears in the funeral hall. Will is not surprised at all and says he's retired. Leon asks that Bern get off the altar. Bern asks Will anout the "story" in this event.
- Bern states in wonderment why a person called Leon Ushiromiya is here when such a person never existed in previous games. Will wonders how this came to be and Bern says Leon is another piece in this game board. He concludes that Bern is the game's GM and Leon must be her piece.
- Bern says that given Beato's use of the game board, Leon existing as a piece is merely one of many possibilities to be born on the board.
- Will asks if Leon is a subordinate like Erika was. Bern denies knowing an Erika. Giggles galore.
- Leon is naturally perplexed at this discussion. He tells Leon not to bother thinking about it. Will asks how the succession is going.
- Leon said that after Kinzo it would be Krauss and then Leon when Leon comes of age an 20 years old. Will asks what would be proof of this.
- Leon presents a silver ring depicting the family emblem to prove Leon is the next heir. Will says that the games never had multiple rings present to indicate the succession line (think of the previous games where only Kinzo has a ring). Bern appears and says something about rewriting the contents of the stories.
- Leon is shocked at Bern's rudeness and asks that she show more respect.
- Will seems at odds with this entirely new presentation. Bern asks Will to challenge this game and extends her invitation. He refuses.
- Will says he has retired from this type of work. Bern calls it (?) a waste of talent.
- Bern seems to extend some sort of warning about Will being not able to leave (?). Will asks what the reward would be. Bern says the reward is to learn about the truth of Beatrice (I think I mistranslated this).
- Bern apparently offers Leon as Will's ally in the investigation. Leon of course is confused. He says Leon seems unfit for this sort of thing.
- Bern asks only to be entartained and again demonstrates her fickleness and being easily bored.

Will Vs. Bern
- Will approaches the coffin and states in red Van Dine's 7th rule, that it is forbidden for a corpse to be hidden. (A corpse must be presented).
- In blue Bern states that the lack of a corpse does not prove there is no corpse, and that this is part of the mystery.
- In red Will states the first Van Dine rule, that all clues must be properly presented.
- In red Bern states that he should not worry because all the clues are complete.
- Will is uncomfortable with this setup. He will however continue with it.
- Will restates that the mystery is about the death of the person who's corpse should have been in the coffin, and asks that he be allowed to do things his way.
- Bern grants him his request.

Temple
- Leon is still confused about all this. Leon agrees to help anyway.
- As Will and Leon leave the hall, Bern's voice seems to mock them. She speaks about the game and how Featherine gives her the GM role being the witch of miracles.
- Bern declares the game's start. REQUIEM OF THE GOLDEN WITCH. Her laughter trails off.

Spoiler for Red Text:

- Will: Van Dine's 7th rule states that a corpse must not be hidden.
- Will: Van Dine's 1st rule states that all clues must be properly presented.
- Bern: Don't worry because all the clues are complete.

Spoiler for Blue Text:

- Bern: The lack of a corpse does not prove that there is no corpse, and this is part of the mystery.

Okay now since it's being discussed how Ep7 has comparatively less reliance on the red and blue text but is apparently heavy of hints that have a big impact on solving the mysteries overall, I need to make a request of those who have finished the game.

In order to focus my abilities on the sections that should be considered very important that aren't defined by red and blue text, someone kindly PM me the specific sections or activities by the players of the board I should pay greater attention to. Specific examples would be certain discussions deemed important, sections where the detectives are investigating, meta scenes etc.

I'm not asking specifically for spoilers but I want to be able to focus my attention on specific scenes in order to read them better.

[Klashikari]

You really don't need any guidance, because the clues will jump on your face in Episode 7. Once you reach Lion's story, things will just go quite straightfoward.

It is just starting from the Tea party that things go a bit "funny".

[MeoTwister5]

So... I assume that unlike previous episodes the none colored hints are more in-your-face and made pronounced by the characters? Well that would surely make things a little easier...

[Klashikari]

To be blunt: the amount of "noise" in this episode is extremely minimal. In fact, Episode 7 is akin to Episode 1 presentation, with of course clues that are directly linked towards previous episodes, notably the general questions at hand (Shkanon? Identity of "beatrice"? etc).

The facts presented have absolutely (or nearly) no magic involved in the mess. Filtering the information is only what matters, and this is lightened quite a big margin in episode 7.
The only thing is to connect the dots with what we were presented with the first half. It is just the tea party that makes things on the usual "chaotic" ride.

[MeoTwister5]

Okay Klash thanks for the input. The important stuff will make itself obvious by themselves so I just need to pay attention.

[Dormeur]

When the name 'Yasu' appeared, I couldn't help myself laughing.
Because it reminded me of the most famous spoiler of an old adventure game in Japan : 「犯人はヤス」(' The culprit is Yasu '.)
This phrase is so famous that people often use it as a joke.
I believe that Ryukishi refered to it.

I thought the submarine of RSI in a background image of EP7 was photoshopped Akishio of JMSDF Kure museum (because I went to there several years ago) when I read EP7, but they have many differences.
http://ascii.jp/elem/000/000/162/162427/index-5.html

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Spoiler for Summaries:

- Bern seems to extend some sort of warning about Will being not able to leave (?). Will asks what the reward would be. Bern says the reward is to learn about the truth of Beatrice (I think I mistranslated this).

Bern told Will he was free to go wherever he wanted, provided that he could actually get out of the building (which she had made impossible by cutting it off from the surrounding fragment).

The reward for winning the game is that Bern will forgive him for being rude to her, and also give him the right to leave the chapel. Talk about an offer you can't refuse.

[ijriims]

I hope I did not misread the episode.

During Will's dialogue with Maria, Will asked whether anyone was present when she and Beatrice met, Maria said "Shannon, Kanon, Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo".

THe question: Who was Beatrice then?

[Oliver]

According to Will later, anyone both on and off that list could be, as Maria recognised Beatrice from behaviour rather than outward appearance -- so if more than one person played Beatrice for her, there would be no way for Maria to tell.

[Rias]

Just finished reading... took more time than usual, probably due to the longer story (espeically the tea party?) and being busy with other stuff...

Spoiler for thoughts of ep7:

Generally speaking, the story is as the intro described. Many things are explained, some others are hinted, and some of the mystery is still left for speculations. Personally, I didn't like ep7 too much; it's too long for the amount of info given. In the end, they never fully explained why Battler showing up resulted in the disaster (what, another Mion jealousy thing?), even tho the whole story has been revolving around whydunit. I don't get why the challenge to the family has to be made on that year, besides the fact that George was proposing to Shannon that year while Battler was back at the same time probably has something to do with it...

While the first half with the backstory of the multiple Beatrice is alright, the 2nd half with the "man from 19 years ago" is too long and abit too messy (or perhaps I just didn't clearly understand the whole grand children-Shannon-Beatrice-Kanon thing because of the "magic" elements appearing again). Also, although some of the tricks has been fully debated and speculated for ep1-4, I think they should still explain some of the parts, instead of just skipping it with the scene with Willard.


Personally I was never too big on solving the epitaph, so it is nice to see that the solution is finally shown. The tea party segment is nice and all, but a bit too long again. The two new characters, Willard and Rion, are actually pretty good as the main characters of this story. At least better than the useless Battler. Will Battler actually be useful for once in Ep8?

Spoiler for speculation of ep7:

In this episode, multiple things are explained/hinted:

1. Identity and history of most of the Beatrices.
2. Identity of the "man from 19 years ago"
3. Shannon = Kanon theory
4. Lying with red text theory
5. Genji + Nanjo + Kumazawa working as a group

maybe there is more, but I can't think of any more right now. I wonder why LD's name didn't show up in ep7 tips or the staff roll for the tea party... standard Ryukishi07 mistake?

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Oliver

According to Will later, anyone both on and off that list could be, as Maria recognised Beatrice from behaviour rather than outward appearance -- so if more than one person played Beatrice for her, there would be no way for Maria to tell.

All males could be rejected though. And Jessica's behaviour and attitude to Maria in EP1 pretty much preclude her as well. Genji was Ronove, Kumasawa was Virgilia.

When Shannon was present, who was imposing as Beatrice?

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by ijriims

When Shannon was present, who was imposing as Beatrice?

Yasu.

Which is one more reason I think the answers given out straight are not really the answers.

[Used Can]

Man, the more I read this episode, the more my mind is full of fuck.

I just finished the first part, and I'm currently in the middle of the Tea Party.
Yasu/Lyon's motivation doesn't make much sense in my opinion, and it doesn't really justify mass murder, I believe.

I still don't get the whole LyoYaShKanontrice. During Yasu's backstory, it seemed that Shannon was someone s(he) came up with, and so was Kanon. Yet we saw Shannon and Kanon during Lyon's story, and there was no problem if Will saw either of them along with Lyon, as opposed to when he tried to have Shannon and Kanon at the same time, and Shannon BSOD'd. Well, there was something odd with the fact Shannon and Kanon didn't addressed Lyon with a proper title, and moreover, Lyon didn't seem to know who they were.

[ijriims]

The whole Yasu business is suspicious.

Is EP7 something like:

This Yasu (raised in the orphanage after he was thrown down the cliff 19 years ago) was bullied and created both Shannon and Kanon persona, 6 years ago Battler said the "white horse" promise and he created Beatrice persona (wait, wasn't he a male?) to love Battler

Then Battler didn't come back, and he planned to murder everyone? Set the bomb?


Then whose sin it should be. Shouldn't it be Natsuhi's sin?

[Rias]

Originally Posted by Used Can

Man, the more I read this episode, the more my mind is full of fuck.

I just finished the first part, and I'm currently in the middle of the Tea Party.
Yasu/Lyon's motivation doesn't make much sense in my opinion, and it doesn't really justify mass murder, I believe.

I still don't get the whole LyoYaShKanontrice. During Yasu's backstory, it seemed that Shannon was someone s(he) came up with, and so was Kanon. Yet we saw Shannon and Kanon during Lyon's story, and there was no problem if Will saw either of them along with Lyon, as opposed to when he tried to have Shannon and Kanon at the same time, and Shannon BSOD'd. Well, there was something odd with the fact Shannon and Kanon didn't addressed Lyon with a proper title, and moreover, Lyon didn't seem to know who they were.

Lion not knowing Shannon/Kanon in the beginning makes sense, given the back story of who Lion is. What confuses me more is that the servants, whom doesn't seem to talk to Shannon at all when Yasu first appeared, responded to both of them before Yasu became Beatrice. Or perhaps that's just another play on words that I didn't catch...

[Almazluverdis3]

Originally Posted by ijriims

The whole Yasu business is suspicious.

Is EP7 something like:

This Yasu (raised in the orphanage after he was thrown down the cliff 19 years ago) was bullied and created both Shannon and Kanon persona, 6 years ago Battler said the "white horse" promise and he created Beatrice persona (wait, wasn't he a male?) to love Battler

Then Battler didn't come back, and he planned to murder everyone? Set the bomb?


Then whose sin it should be. Shouldn't it be Natsuhi's sin?

I don't get it---- too raunchy. How could Leon bully himself if he's Shannon/Kanon?

[Renall]

If Yasu is going to school, he/she has legal personhood. Somebody should be able to identify this person, so if Bern is going to advance that this person exists, she must believe there exists some legally-recognized existent person who was known to be present somewhere other than Rokkenjima. This is implied by the story, yet impossible to confirm. But if someone were to come along later, like Hachijou Touya, it should be possible to identify this person.

So does Bern know something, or is this a bluff? "Yeah this person existed, and had documentation, but I don't need to show how I know it, what it says, who the person is, or if any of this is true."