2007-02-16, 17:25 | Link #102 | ||||||
Μ ε r c ü r υ
Join Date: Jun 2004
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By the way, I am not saying, definitely, this is the best strategy. I am saying given what Kakuzu has and has observed, for him, this might be the best strategy at hand to achieve all what he wanted to achieve, instead of taking steps one by one without foreseeing the future. And, honestly, I understand your feelings how the fight turned out, I also wanted to see something more, not from Kakuzu, his future was decided at the time Naruto joined the fight and he already showed what he can do, but I want to see more techniques from Naruto, to show the limits of what he can really do, including the summons and other important techniques Jiraiya taught him (some defensive ones for instance), and any other technique he developed. But, it didn't happen. Also, I don't think Kakuzu had been in a bad situation like that before during this fight, where, as I said to Rurik, he is not as limited. Quote:
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Anyway, I thought the main discussion was about Kakuzu being stupid or not for his failure. |
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2007-02-16, 17:26 | Link #103 | |
Endless
Join Date: May 2004
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2007-02-16, 18:05 | Link #104 | |||||||
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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Kakuzu going all out and losing against what we have seen from Naruto or Naruto showing way more power and destroying Kakuzu would have made my day. Quote:
I wasn't saying you were a Naruto fanboy, I was implying the opposite : not everyone who think this event was credible has to be a Naruto fanboy and not everyone who think this event wasn't credible has to be a Naruto hater. Quote:
Let's be fair I tend to complain a lot. Quote:
Kakuzu thought about what was going on and basically it was : holly shit I chose to ignore the real one behind me and I notice that whereas he's right behind me while I'm in middle air. And not OMG he's too fast. Quote:
Kakuzu knew this, he just thought he was killing the real one and didn't need to take care of the clones. And I think this is one hell of a stupid mistake. Quote:
Kakuzu being stupid and Kishimoto's lack of imagination : po-tay-toe and po-tah-toe. |
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2007-02-16, 18:34 | Link #105 |
Konoha's ANBU
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 38
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After defeating Kakuzu...
Well one thing i like to know....Kishi said through Chouji & Ino (was Naruto this smart?) but you are still not on Shikamaru's level...(being smart) Is it really Naruto being/becoming smart(er)? Or is it mere experience? And/or a great deal of luck... Just like Kakashi mentioned that Naruto has surpassed him. (Is that based on all fields, strenght, power, jutsu's, etc. etc.?) I really dont mind it since it is bound to happen some day but...things are brought so weird/unconvincing to us. Also is Sasuke merly acting? Or is he really a cold-hearted freak like his brother is reputated (though he seems also a softy)?
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2007-02-16, 18:47 | Link #106 | |||
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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That much didn't change but he's now way swifter in the application and doesn't need to spam KB and take a beating to evaluate his opponents. And of course Naruto's always lucky. Quote:
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Bleh his redemption shall come. I prefered the idea of Sasuke falling to the dark side a little further than that. |
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2007-02-16, 21:44 | Link #107 | |||
Fat Warlord
Join Date: Dec 2005
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His experience would've told him that the real one would have to be the one controlling the jutsu and the other ones are just distractions, and when he destroys the real ninja the other clones would disappear like how they're supposed to afterwards. When it comes down to it, Kakuzu's experience didn't save him, and Kakashi himself summarized it best as to how and why Naruto was able to beat Kakuzu and his experience, when he said that "the next generation always surpasses the previous one". The fight overall should have been longer though I still believe. |
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2007-02-16, 22:32 | Link #108 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
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How cumbersome this next chapter has been.....While the anime finally reached Pt2 it seems like the manga is in a downward spiral. While I don't mind the unborn children being that 'King' (not what I expected...) it's still hard to imagine how Shika reacted when he heard it from Asuma (maybe he thought, 'that bastard...killed Asuma and kurenai is pregnant!)
So...the 10 special 'protectors' are in fact merely protectors of every unborn child? What? Isn't that what all of Konoha stand for anyway? Do they need this special group? Was the bald guy at the beginning of this new Akatsuki hunt the Master nanny? And Kakashi killing Kazuzu...why? The fact he had lived to fight the first hokage ...there was so much to learn from the guy...especially when it seemed like he was older than Akatsuki itself! So yet another Raikiri from Kakashi.... And the new theme of the next generation taking over the old... It sounds quite odd, though it's sorta true but not entirely. It felt like Kishi just gave us the reason for the easy loss...and now he gave us a reason why every former genin is great now and better than the adults. It feels unbelievable...and like a bad excuse...I can't explain any further, but that' s the way it seemed. Like now we just got a preview of the Sannin's downfall...yet Kakashi was no way as strong as the 4th or probably the 3rd? And now we get this excuse that the young ones should be stronger...? I don't buy it! The manga is getting more unbelievable by the second, someone tell me the time that's left for Oro to take over Sasuke's body? So much beef....especially the way Asuma died....there were no wishes or thoughts to see Kurenai...or even an excuse to not go through with the battle because he had a baby coming. When he says 'I finally understand what the 3rd meant...' that means he understands the symbol on his shirt to protect all unborn children!? WhAt!?! Yes, at that instant after learning he's the 3rd's son, throw him away, don't even give him any details on Kurenai and the child...he wasn't fighting for his team...he was fighting for the unborn child................. Blah blah, sounds like an idea that popped up to get people thinking yet Kishi didn't think of what that idea might be. I suspect we might see more of that...but these chapters didn't seemingly develop anyone at all...it felt empty......... But ahead, enjoy it, BS me but if you read the manga from the beginning and then compare it to now...You'll see what I mean. Perhaps we have yet to see Naruto's 1st full major fight (we had over 5 in the 1st part and 0 so far here - just cannon fodder or Kyuubi excuses).......meh...... |
2007-02-16, 22:56 | Link #109 | ||||||
Golden
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: 9th Temple
Age: 45
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I not missing that he used a Clone to distract Kakuuzu, because this is basically the same he did Neeji...ohh wait with Neeji was more clever than this, because with Neeji at least he made it look as One of the clone was the original by Making the clone not do things other clone would do not to mention it was more credible for all of us because Neeji was not Sandaime. Sounds Familiar? Not to mention also that Kakuuzu saw twice that Narutos like to Bait His Clones, so in the 3rd try, Kakuuzu suddenly forgot that Naruto failed before, Discarded that Naruto could had set a trap on the same manner as before, Decided to Put all of His heart together, and fight at close range! Man, or that either is Kakuuzu acting Dumb, or Naruto is so lucky that everything went his way. Why Not attack The clones with his Jutsus he made before? Why Put his heart Together? so When if the Jutsu strikes It destroy more at the same time. Why Get close to the clone using a Close range Jutsu? Quote:
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His experience would had told him not get close to a Close range fighter with a very dangerous Close range Jutsu. Quote:
At the end you can defend Naruto victory all you want, but Do people really feel comfortable on how Kishimot made Naruto defeat Kakuuzu? seriously, I want to know who Would had prefer this way, instead of other more credible, convincing, Climatic way, and ones that really shows the New Naruto?
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2007-02-16, 22:57 | Link #110 | ||
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Age: 41
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The point is: Narutos bushins aren't weak. They're extremely strong as this is his favourite jutsu. And even though Kakuuzu focused on the real Naruto. Why? Because he was afraid of that jutsu and set the avoidance of it higher on the priority list. Get it straight: Naruto had a clone hold a jutsu not even the fourth could accomplish. Kakuzuu wasn't dumbed down. He was left out of options and got overpowered. |
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2007-02-16, 23:09 | Link #111 | ||||
Golden
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: 9th Temple
Age: 45
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2007-02-17, 00:00 | Link #112 | |||||||||
Fat Warlord
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2007-02-17, 00:39 | Link #113 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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In the end, what does it end up? An mistake by the opponent. It will end the same way. Naruto will eventually use that jutsu. Or would you prefer Naruto and co. to get bloodied by the opponent to be considered climatic? As a matter of fact, the Akatsuki members are horribly overpowered right now. After such a long battle, the opponent should be more or less wear down to pay attention to old tricks. Some really interesting observation. Itachi > Orochimaru, when Oro did not explicitly state that he was weaker. Kakashi > Naruto, when Kakashi said that Naruto has surpassed him. |
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2007-02-17, 01:00 | Link #114 | ||||
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Age: 41
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And what does age matter if you lack the experience in this specific situation? Where exactly did he encounter someone who has that high lvl of attack jutsu? Age doesn't necessarily translate into experience. And even experience can be leveled by pure force. Quote:
Why on earth does everyone think that this first attempt was luck or something and that just because Kakuuzu has seen his strategy once, should make him immune to that? Naruto was faster and stronger, so what? He overpowered him and there was no way that Kakuuzu could have known this Naruto with the jutsu was a clone and the real one could make this jutsu for a 3rd time right behind him. Quote:
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Separated hearts would leave them more vulnerable to narutos strong kage bushins. He didn't have a choice. And quite honestly, I don't get why most people here can't accept someone like Kakuuzu underestimating Naruto. Is this dragonball with some fancy fighting-power-measuring instruments? Ah...oh snap, he lived for 80 years and should have all this experience! Are your parents or grandparents always right? Are they flawless without any wrong judgements or mistakes? In my book, Kakuuzu is a human...in a manga, but still modelled after a human. And humans can make mistakes. |
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2007-02-17, 01:07 | Link #115 | |||||||||||||||||||||
Golden
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: 9th Temple
Age: 45
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This is not about The CHakra of Naruto, this about the energy that A jutsu like the FR produce and that should be perceivable by others. I don't know up to what a degree a Shinoby can do this, but if Kakshi could sense something like Those tow powers Colliding in the VOTE from a mile, picking such a powerful jutsu that Naruto can only do 3 times, should be more easier. Quote:
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I don't belive Naruto Tricked Kakuuzu with the clone alone, Don't try to suggest my point of view, the core point here is not about the KB that had the Jutsu, the point here is falling for that easy trick when you know your opponent can only hurt you in close range. Quote:
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And now that I rewatched the Chapter again I even found Kakuuzu Defeat more Pathetic than before, I mean, Why after gaining such Tremendous force, he decides instead of just taking the clone away with his Tentacles, he decides to Ignore them to attack the Directly The one With the Jutsu, Man, not even HIdan have done something as stupid as this. Quote:
And no one that is saying Kakuuzu was dumb down because of plot said this is should had been different And Kakuuzu should had won, the point is about the poor choice made by Kishimoto on how Naruto defeated Kakuuzu, and not abaout the outcome of the fight, even the first intent on the Rasen Shurken would had been even better. Quote:
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Kushikose, Overpowering,Using Himself so Kakuuzu atacks him, but taking avantage of his fast healing, you name it! but not something like this, that only made Kakuuzu look like a Super Dumb Shinoby. Quote:
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We are talking here about someone with enough experience not to do what he did, is not about getting defeated or Killed or overpowered, thats not the point here. Quote:
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Yeah, that was not dumbness. Quote:
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Kakuzu can make mistake, but this one here wasn't a mistake, because he did mistake after mistake after another, this is not something normal for an experienced shinoby.
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Last edited by Rurik; 2007-02-17 at 02:02. |
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2007-02-17, 03:47 | Link #116 |
System/Web developer
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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So that is the jutsu Naruto wants to use to get Sasuke home? Atleast he´s true to his words when he said that he´ll break every bone in Sasuke´s body to get him home.
A nice concluding chapter. Kakuzu down but I´m sure Hidan will come back sooner or later. Atleast I hope so, since he´s definitely my favourite Akatsuki scoundrel so far. @Sinaura If you´re going to quote such a long post and only write one line... I suggest you spoiler tag the quote to not take up so much place.
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2007-02-17, 05:08 | Link #117 | |
Konoha's ANBU
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 38
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That's all you can say!
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Rasengan heavily injured Kabuto (but he seemed a bit ok because of his healing....and still alot of damage was left) Oodama Rasengan was pretty much the same with even MORE damage the Uchiha Clone (Yuura) died pretty quick after this technique. (uhm was this Naruto's first kill?) Kazerasengan well that's an instant killer...unless you are immortal like Hidan or Kakuzu (more hearts)
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2007-02-17, 05:56 | Link #118 | |
System/Web developer
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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I wonder if we can call the Rasengan completed now. I really want to see Naruto focus on getting a larger variety of jutsu´s to use now. Maybe he and Jirayia will focus on "that jutsu" from now on for some time.
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2007-02-17, 07:47 | Link #119 | |
Konoha's ANBU
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 38
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However i dont think Sasuke will care now if he kills Naruto (which will be easier for Sasuke) but Naruto on the other hand will try to bring Sasuke back (unharmed if possible...and without him losing legs, arms etc. which is alot harder) And if Naruto fights for like....a few hours with Sasuke....and then suddenly disspells his jutsu (Sasuke finding out he was fighting for hours against Naruto's Kage Bunshin....would be hilarious ) Anyway i am suprised that "the King" solution came so much faster then the-still-unknown-that-jutsu...of Naruto. And when we see Jiraiya it's always means: - more important information - new jutsu's So yeah i hope Jiraiya will do a quick training with Naruto...a new jutsu (which would be usefull against Sasuke) Mere Rasengan+Kage Bunshin alone wont do any good against Sasuke. And especially shurikens or ninja tools like that...those wont work at all!
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2007-02-17, 08:24 | Link #120 | |
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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This is not exactly the same actually because I'm not arguing that Naruto didn't outmanoeuvred and outthought the very experienced and rather smart ninja that Kakuzu was. Naruto did all that, it was stated and there is no denying it. For example Shika understanding that Hidan's circle was related to his vodoo jutsu was meant to show that he was a genius whereas personally I thought "duh!". Same principle. My rant is about the fact that it wasn't presented very well, not that within the story Kakuzu became stupid. |
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