Why is Gundam Seed Destiny so controversial?

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by Laik

You're forgetting something.

No one in the series couldn't predict the future. Sure, Lacus and the Chairman were fairly correct in guessing what could happen but that didn't mean they were in control of the situation.

Lacus wasn't in control of the situation? PHASE 50 + 51 whizzes on by unloved and quite harmlessly at that too... Oh, for more evidence, "Lacus" was always there to support the Chairman too...

Cagali is stupid for going out in order to stop her countrymen from dying? Kira is a fool for doing what he wanted to do with his Gundam? Every conventional win or lost revolves around a plot device?

What has happened already happened. It's not as if she could bawl right in the middle of the battlefield everything would turn out just fine, just like that. She didn't do anything at all to prevent this from happening, rather, she goes on spouting ridiculous idealistic nonsense and seriously believes that this would end everything once and for all. She staunchly believes in the Athha ideals, Orb ideals, but she conveniently forgot that her younger brother and his other cohorts are violating everything her father had worked so hard to "protect" during the last war. Cagalli believed in the Orb ideals so much that it has burned Orb down TWICE. And all those soldiers fighting for Yuna... um, since Archangel already did the violations, it's just right that they do it too, and so would absolutely absolve them from not being able to stay true to these ideals...

Interesting enough, the answer is probably yes but you can't fault them for it. At the beginning, Cagali wasn't at all stupid. It was more of her being frustrated that it was her fault that this was happening and that she couldn't figure out what she really wanted to do. She had honest intentions but the means by which she took action did lead to greater confusion for the most part. She went out for what she felt was right and it opened her eyes to the fact that talking and flying around didn't get much of anything done.

Well, Cagalli was stupid in believing that the emirs are all 100% behind her in the first place.

It was clear what Cagalli wanted to do, it was said explicitly in the first parts of GSD: she wants a world without war, wherein power that is too great would cause conflict, that petty selfish ideals are ingredients for another war, and so they took the Junius Seven Treaty oath, wherein the PLANTs and Earth itself would work towards a brighter future, no weapons development, no nuclear energy whats its, the whole shebang. But in order for this oath or treaty to take effect, countries who signed this treaty must be true to it in all aspects, not for diplomacy sakes only. But seriously, did Cagalli think that the evil EAF of the Jachin Due War 2 years ago would just be content accepting everything this peace they have to offer? Of course not. There's going to be a retribution, something which then actually led to the Gundamjack of CE 73, and so history repeats itself.

Freedom is Kira's Gundam above all else. At the end of the day, Orb is the place he calls home but he's not going to go all pacifist when he knows the fight is coming to him. From a certain perspective, someone could percieve Kira as selfish but it's just as easy to see him as rightous. Regardless, he uses his Gundam to fight for what he himself belives in. Sure, he made some mistakes in the series but who didn't?

Freedom is Kira's Gundam, of course there's no debate on that. But its stay in Orb, which is supposed to be one of the people behind the Junius Seven Treaty, is violating some of its clauses, that is, the ban on nuclear armaments (anything nuclear as anything nuclear is banned by this treaty) and storage of weapons of war (in this case MS). So, it's just totally for Kira to be spouting about protecting Orb ideals, or whatever ideals for his sake; he's violated it in the first place, so who is he to preach something about fighting for what he believes in?

The other characters? Shinn, determined to end all the fighting, didn't choose the wrong side at all, just different means. In the end, this hindered him because of who he was against. Opposing sides were in each other's way and one went down. He wasn't hot-headed as in being reckless but that he was quick to excuse anything that didn't suit him as nonsense. Shinn was a naive and ignorant character. Not completely, it was just those were the traits that defined his actions most of the time.

How was Shinn naive? He wanted to end a war with his own way, how is that naive? Like Kenshin vowing to end all evil with his sakabattou, believing that a sword is meant to protect, not to harm or kill? (wait a minute, that sounds just like Kira... ) He knew what he was fighting for, and he has the means to do it by means of joining ZAFT. He knew that it would be hard, but at least he's still going to try and do it, because he knows that this war could stop somehow, even by just contributing a little to stop it.

Shinn was ignorant? How could saying that line about the Extendeds doing the Gundamjack, do they want another war bit? How Cagalli's words don't mean anything at all in this world that would almost always go to war just because the other side's totally different? Understanding Athrun's pain of having his dead father get involved in the Junius Seven Fall more so than Cagalli, the one who's supposed to understand him better? Understanding that he's the one who's solely responsible for the entire Minerva crew because he's the "strongest" and the most capable person on board the Minerva (Athrun is a different league entirely)? Understanding that he has to improve himself to defeat stronger opponents (*coughFREEDOMPWNcough*)?

Athrun was confused for a greater part of the series because, like Shinn and Kira, he wanted to do something to stop the violence. Unlike the other two, his confusion was rooted in the fact that he saw two of his friends fighting for what they believed in. Athrun always knew what he wanted to do (stop the conflict) but not how to do it exactly (Was he doing the right thing by leaving his friends and going to ZAFT? Was Kira even fighting for the same things he was fighting for?). He only started to drift back towards his friends after he started to honestly feel that things were being handled wrong by the chairman and the attempt on his life only served to show he was correct. If none of that ever happened, Athrun probably would have been piloting Destiny to fend off Freedom later in the series.

Well Dullindal, along with Rey and Shinn, was one of the new cast members who got nerfed in the series. Dullindal's descent to the Dark Side is badly done. So, given if Fukuda actually has the guts to make Lacus the Evil Empress of Pink Doom, Dullindal isn't exactly what you call evil. Misguided dreamer, more likely. Not evil.

Um...Athrun knew what to do...? What did he know, really? And when did that happen? He was confused all the time. He was fighting to search for something, he was fighting because he wanted to protect Cagalli...the list goes on and on. But never in the series did it show that Athrun ACTUALLY knew something that would end all fighting. He joined up with the Love Crew, didn't he? Well if that was the case (when he actually knew how to stop a war), he could've easily taken the lead status from Kira and stop it the only way Zala-sama can.

Athrun sama FTW~~~!!!

[dom33]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Lacus wasn't in control of the situation? PHASE 50 + 51 whizzes on by unloved and quite harmlessly at that too... Oh, for more evidence, "Lacus" was always there to support the Chairman too...



What has happened already happened. It's not as if she could bawl right in the middle of the battlefield everything would turn out just fine, just like that. She didn't do anything at all to prevent this from happening, rather, she goes on spouting ridiculous idealistic nonsense and seriously believes that this would end everything once and for all. She staunchly believes in the Athha ideals, Orb ideals, but she conveniently forgot that her younger brother and his other cohorts are violating everything her father had worked so hard to "protect" during the last war. Cagalli believed in the Orb ideals so much that it has burned Orb down TWICE. And all those soldiers fighting for Yuna... um, since Archangel already did the violations, it's just right that they do it too, and so would absolutely absolve them from not being able to stay true to these ideals...





Well, Cagalli was stupid in believing that the emirs are all 100% behind her in the first place.

It was clear what Cagalli wanted to do, it was said explicitly in the first parts of GSD: she wants a world without war, wherein power that is too great would cause conflict, that petty selfish ideals are ingredients for another war, and so they took the Junius Seven Treaty oath, wherein the PLANTs and Earth itself would work towards a brighter future, no weapons development, no nuclear energy whats its, the whole shebang. But in order for this oath or treaty to take effect, countries who signed this treaty must be true to it in all aspects, not for diplomacy sakes only. But seriously, did Cagalli think that the evil EAF of the Jachin Due War 2 years ago would just be content accepting everything this peace they have to offer? Of course not. There's going to be a retribution, something which then actually led to the Gundamjack of CE 73, and so history repeats itself.



Freedom is Kira's Gundam, of course there's no debate on that. But its stay in Orb, which is supposed to be one of the people behind the Junius Seven Treaty, is violating some of its clauses, that is, the ban on nuclear armaments (anything nuclear as anything nuclear is banned by this treaty) and storage of weapons of war (in this case MS). So, it's just totally for Kira to be spouting about protecting Orb ideals, or whatever ideals for his sake; he's violated it in the first place, so who is he to preach something about fighting for what he believes in?



How was Shinn naive? He wanted to end a war with his own way, how is that naive? Like Kenshin vowing to end all evil with his sakabattou, believing that a sword is meant to protect, not to harm or kill? (wait a minute, that sounds just like Kira... ) He knew what he was fighting for, and he has the means to do it by means of joining ZAFT. He knew that it would be hard, but at least he's still going to try and do it, because he knows that this war could stop somehow, even by just contributing a little to stop it.

Shinn was ignorant? How could saying that line about the Extendeds doing the Gundamjack, do they want another war bit? How Cagalli's words don't mean anything at all in this world that would almost always go to war just because the other side's totally different? Understanding Athrun's pain of having his dead father get involved in the Junius Seven Fall more so than Cagalli, the one who's supposed to understand him better? Understanding that he's the one who's solely responsible for the entire Minerva crew because he's the "strongest" and the most capable person on board the Minerva (Athrun is a different league entirely)? Understanding that he has to improve himself to defeat stronger opponents (*coughFREEDOMPWNcough*)?



Well Dullindal, along with Rey and Shinn, was one of the new cast members who got nerfed in the series. Dullindal's descent to the Dark Side is badly done. So, given if Fukuda actually has the guts to make Lacus the Evil Empress of Pink Doom, Dullindal isn't exactly what you call evil. Misguided dreamer, more likely. Not evil.

Um...Athrun knew what to do...? What did he know, really? And when did that happen? He was confused all the time. He was fighting to search for something, he was fighting because he wanted to protect Cagalli...the list goes on and on. But never in the series did it show that Athrun ACTUALLY knew something that would end all fighting. He joined up with the Love Crew, didn't he? Well if that was the case (when he actually knew how to stop a war), he could've easily taken the lead status from Kira and stop it the only way Zala-sama can.

Athrun sama FTW~~~!!!

so the sum up of this post is cagalli is a moron,kira goes against orb's ideals,shinn isn't naive, and athrun became a complete wuss.

[blitz1/2]

There is no character development for Shinn at all.

[neodrag38]

There was some, just that it was thrown out of existence on a matter of convience rather than real logic.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by neodrag38

There was some, just that it was thrown out of existence on a matter of convience rather than real logic.

True, true.

[Schneizel]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

There is no character development for Shinn at all.

If Shinn didn't develop, how do you explain his actions in the last ~10 or so episodes? Shinn was always a little hot headed and rebellious who had his survivors guilt and didn't want to live for himself, but the end his actions weren't defined out of his rebellion but his servitude of Dullindal (and Rey), then he finally realized his future and that he could live to live when Stellar appeared to him with her gibberish.

[Myname]

Originally Posted by kodachrome

If Shinn didn't develop, how do you explain his actions in the last ~10 or so episodes? Shinn was always a little hot headed and rebellious who had his survivors guilt and didn't want to live for himself, but the end his actions weren't defined out of his rebellion but his servitude of Dullindal (and Rey), then he finally realized his future and that he could live to live when Stellar appeared to him with her gibberish.

You're right, Shinn was a puppet.

His so called "actions" were just "orders" that he obediently obeys.

Seriously though, I dont know why there are still "Shinn Fans" that still try and defend him. Can you not accept the truth that Shinn caused the demise of GSD, because its true? Why, I dont even know why Shinn fans still exist, you may hate Kira but at least he got character development during his debut.

[shaolo]

Originally Posted by Myname

You're right, Shinn was a puppet.

His so called "actions" were just "orders" that he obediently obeys.

Seriously though, I dont know why there are still "Shinn Fans" that still try and defend him. Can you not accept the truth that Shinn caused the demise of GSD, because its true? Why, I dont even know why Shinn fans still exist, you may hate Kira but at least he got character development during his debut.

I think it comes with the job description.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Myname

Seriously though, I dont know why there are still "Shinn Fans" that still try and defend him. Can you not accept the truth that Shinn caused the demise of GSD, because its true? Why, I dont even know why Shinn fans still exist, you may hate Kira but at least he got character development during his debut.

Well, Shinn's unique, as far as gundam protagonist goes. And I don't know exactly what you mean about character development but he did develop, somewhat, as a character. Shinn in the beginning of GSD is not really the same as Shinn in the end of GSD.

[wingdarkness]

Shinn is now a lap-dawg to Kira's ideals just like everyone of his haters wanted him to be... So enjoy, nothing more to say...you guys won...

Originally Posted by Myname

.

Seriously though, I dont know why there are still "Shinn Fans" that still try and defend him. Can you not accept the truth that Shinn caused the demise of GSD, because its true? Why, I dont even know why Shinn fans still exist, you may hate Kira but at least he got character development during his debut.

Your seriously treading water with those statements...There are some Shinn-supporters here that would totally blow you outta the water (namely wingdarkness ) based on that misguided post...

[Illuyankas]

I am a Shinn fan. I liked the idea of a young lead who didn't complain and whine and cry over killing people, as it was a refreshing change. A pilot who wanted to be there, who believed in an ideal FROM THE START that could evolve through the series instead of being given one near the series' end by a random rich girl with too much free time was an interesting idea I wanted to see. Admittedly, it never went anywhere, but that was the writers fault, not the character's original concept.

It may be that Shinn ruined Destiny for you, but it was never all his fault.

[Schneizel]

Shinn was not the demise of GSD. If a character being a tool ruins a series, then Kira should've ruined GS. How can you even describe the demise of a series with one character alone? I'm not a Shinn fan, but I'm not a Kira fan either: Main characters, in general, bore me to hell. However I find it ridiculous to asess that GSD failed purely because of Shinn. Multiple things happened that made this series crap; not just one character that happened to have an attitude you didn't like.

[tetsuo69]

Shinn is now a lap-dawg to Kira's ideals just like everyone of his haters wanted him to be... So enjoy, nothing more to say...you guys won...

yay!!!! We Won!!! Letz all Party!! Rofl

It may be that Shinn ruined Destiny for you, but it was never all his fault.

i agreed.. if we should blame some1 it should be fukuda.. for the bad script and bad animation

However I find it ridiculous to asess that GSD failed purely because of Shinn. Multiple things happened that made this series crap; not just one character that happened to have an attitude you didn't like.

mhm this goes both ways for shinn and kira fans

I hated GS and i still watched all of it. why? because i wanted to see what would happen to Rau and how it would happen, since the outcome was fairly obvious from the start.

its funny cuz that the main reason why i'm still watching Naruto!! Rofl ^^ to see if it gets better after the crap that it has turn into.. i know it has nothing to do with gundam .. but i know how you feel :P

[Copy-cat]

Why i hate GSD?

god-moding.

i don't even have to list all of the examples, for i have high hopes that people will have a few ideas popping into their head when i mention GSD and god-moding one after another.

oh and in regards to watching all 50 episodes and hating the show?

I hated GS and i still watched all of it. why? because i wanted to see what would happen to Rau and how it would happen, since the outcome was fairly obvious from the start.

Now. Regarding the Destiny Plan...... i'm an avid supporter of the DP, even though when such an idea is applied to the moronic masses that we the human race make up, it will inevidably fail.

actually, if you want to read my who entire essay that i wrote for the fun of it, i'll post the link.

[Copy-cat]

In Regards To the Destiny Plan

there. i don't feel like re-stating my opinion a-fresh because it would take too long, so instead i made a fresh new web layout and a web page and posted my essay there....

y'know.... i don't really know what would've taken shorter, but i have this feeling that i took the longer path of life.....

ah well.

[Ryuujin]

Originally Posted by kodachrome

How can you even describe the demise of a series with one character alone?

You can't, but people have been trying to pin GSD's failure on Kira for months...

[Copy-cat]

its funny cuz that the main reason why i'm still watching Naruto!! Rofl ^^ to see if it gets better after the crap that it has turn into.. i know it has nothing to do with gundam .. but i know how you feel :P

woooow... really? i find watching naruto far more entertaining that watching GS and GSD.... at least there's no lickass of a main character....

and MOST of the characters have interesting twists and flaws. for a rau fan, it's entertaining.

for a viewer of GS/D, it's good character developement galore. as well as a wake-up call... i swear after watching GS/D where there is very little blood.. ok, so maybe GSD had a bit more. BUT STILL. watching naruto is like a slap in the face..... OMFG, humans ACTUALLY bleed!!!

oh i'm sorry. i forgot. when they perfected kira, they gave him an extra gene or two for mega-quick blood-clotting, among other things.

[Illuyankas]

@Copy-cat - The reason no-one bleeds very much is because all their blood was stolen by Ichigo from Bleach and Zoro from One Piece. And believe me, considering what happens to them, they need it

[Copy-cat]

Originally Posted by Illuyankas

@Copy-cat - The reason no-one bleeds very much is because all their blood was stolen by Ichigo from Bleach and Zoro from One Piece. And believe me, considering what happens to them, they need it

wow... they must be around 24-7 then, sucking blood.....

or maybe they got perfected so much they don't operate on blood, but on thick goop that doesn't come out of a cut.


interesting avatar, by the way....

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by Myname

You're right, Shinn was a puppet.

His so called "actions" were just "orders" that he obediently obeys.

Seriously though, I dont know why there are still "Shinn Fans" that still try and defend him. Can you not accept the truth that Shinn caused the demise of GSD, because its true? Why, I dont even know why Shinn fans still exist, you may hate Kira but at least he got character development during his debut.

What character development?

Shinn never was a puppet. If he was, he would've followed everything Dullindal told him to the letter, and Rey wouldn't have even bothered trying to get him back to their side. Um, where was it that Shinn actually was nodding just to everything Dullindal says without looking ? Besides, it wasn't Dullindal who was ordering him around until after 35+ episodes...

@ Ryuujin

Well, if Kira's reintroduction into the series wasn't that awkward, I wouldn't say that Kira caused GSD to fail in one way or the other. But Shinn's kickoff from his main character pedestal was just a little too much, don't you think?