2013-10-12, 23:18 | Link #9581 | |||
A Contradiction Beneath
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Singapore
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Please be reminded that there are ample grounds to believe that Durandal orchestrated the entire conflict, starting from provoking the pro-Patrick Zala extremists into action and purposely leaking top-secret data (cue Destroy's blueprints) to LOGOS so that ZAFT could be given a reason to intervene in Eurasia. Therefore, Durandal didn't stop the racial wars. Through means of espionage, Durandal gave LOGOS the destructive power they lacked to unleash their wave of terror, but gave enough for his team of followers (i.e. Minerva) to stop LOGOS in their tracks once the latter's role was complete. Of course, all this argument is based on the assumption that Durandal did orchestrate this entire fiasco. Durandal exemplified "the end would justify the means". He didn't care if tensions between Naturals and Coordinators would be exacerbated due to the Break the World incident. Once he achieve his goals (i.e. Destiny plan) he believed this sacrifice would be worth it. But Orb, Kira and co. didn't buy his bluff simply because how many blood has to be shed to achieve that end? How can humanity tolerate having their dreams suppressed and having no means of progression in society simply because your genes said so? Which brings me to my point that the Destiny plan is doomed to fail. Like communism, it seems to work in theory. The plan would work in a hypothetical world in which humans accept that in exchange for everlasting peace, they allow their education, their career, the people they would have to marry, to be determined by their genes. But we all fucking know that humans aren't like that. We are an evolutionary being which would strive for betterment regardless of our plight and the obstacles of environment, genes or even the family we are born in. Even you, Destined_Fate, is here participating in this circular "debate" because you want it known that Orb, Kira and Cagalli are unscrupulous assholes. Would you stop if the Destiny plan tells you that you are incapable of such debate? No. Quote:
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2013-10-13, 01:06 | Link #9582 | |||
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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I don't quite understand what you're trying to say - well, I get the first part, implications of being under N-Jammer effect. But the "range is low" - everything from those words on, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. Perhaps a rephrasing might be in order? Sorry. The "very wide area of effect part". Note the image shows four N-Jammers being dropped in a cluster into a relatively small area. Quote:
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@RES-01 Perseus Gundam: You're wasting your time. Destined_Fate has stated in the past that he believes in morality dictated by society, and thus the majority. I'd elaborate more, except that when I previously questioned him further using real world examples and logical extrapolation, that was sufficient to get me tempbanned for supposedly insulting him.
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2013-10-13, 02:12 | Link #9583 | ||
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Well, first, I'll just say that the image doesn't necessarily mean anything as far as the area of effect of a neutron jammer is concerned. The official info does say that only a handful were needed to cover the earth but also that ZAFT drove many of them across the earth's surface. So here are a few things to consider: - After the Bloody Valentine event, the people in the PLANTs were really angry and they did not want anyone on earth to be able to use nuclear weapons, not to mention the military reason. - Dropping more than is required increases the chance of success. Some of the jammers might malfunction or be destroyed on their way. - Dropping multiple jammers in close proximity might increase their effective range as well as the effect itself. Notice how nuclear fission is not used in space, even though the jammers are on earth. Space is so vast that the PLANTs can't possibly protect against a hidden nuclear bomb or even a nuke fired in the midst of battle if the neutron jamming effect doesn't cover a vast area. - It's possible that the jammers used in warships are implemented differently as they are used specifically for jamming communications during a mission, so they might be more targeted in nature and have a smaller area of effect than the ones used by the jammers driven to earth by ZAFT. Quote:
And they obviously do not have fusion technology if they had to rely on the neutron jammer cancellers to regain nuclear energy. But, if their mobile suits and warships are any indication, the CE military tech is pretty impressive when it comes to non-nuclear power source. Even a Zaku II from UC is powered by nuclear power even though an Impulse should have a bigger energy requirement. |
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2013-10-13, 02:47 | Link #9584 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
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A cadre of coordinator special forces break into his house with ZAFT's new mobile suits and try to kill his girlfriend, and put his life and lives of his friends and mother at risk. Kira reacts by... NOT ATTACK ZAFT AT ALL. He SUSPECTS Durandal, but he does not denounce him. He makes no move against him, choosing instead of just look to find out WHO ordered the hit. Durandal is a SUSPECT. Parially because of the Ashes thing, partially for the Coordinator thing, partially for the fake Lacus thing. They still don't make a move on him over it. EVER. They don't actually go on the offensive until ZAFT takes over Requiem and start nuking people who disagree with them. |
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2013-10-13, 02:57 | Link #9585 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
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The problem there is that if ZAFT didn't drop n jammers there, what would there be to stop Blue Cosmos from launching nukes at them and eliminating ZAFT's allies quickly? The primary point of the n jammers was to make sure that neither ZAFT or it's allies would fall victim to a nuclear attack again. If they took the necessary precautions when they still had the ability then they would be better prepared compared to the rest of earth.
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Last edited by cyberdemon; 2013-10-13 at 10:53. |
2013-10-13, 03:42 | Link #9586 | ||||
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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However, I should note that in space, nukes are actually less effective compared to atmosphere, since being in a vacuum, you can't have the pressure wave formed by the nuclear blast, there being nothing to displace. So really, even if N-Jammers aren't long-ranged, all you'd need is to have them on your ships and at your PLANTs; any nuke fired at you turns into a kinetic energy weapon with a solid warhead, and the most damage it'd do would be spreading radioactive materials and starting fuel fires on impact. Which is still bad, but not as devastating as a nuclear weapon initiating. Quote:
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Magic. Just like Muv-Luv economies. *throws hands up in the air* Quote:
This hopes, then, that ZAFT informed the Oceanic Union of its intentions and took steps to help that nation prepare for the N-Jammers, since by Destiny both polities appear to still be allied. Touche. You're quite right - went back and speed-marathoned. Well, in this case, Kira wasn't being a teenager. -=- One unfortunate implication of SEED Destiny though: Happy Coordinator couples. Consider. There's no interracial couple actually working out and lasting throughout Destiny; Dearka and Mir break up (albeit long distance relationships are tricky), as do Athrun and Cagalli, with Athrun going for Meyrin. And of course there's Kira and Lacus, with Shinn and Luna. *shrugs* The implications are a little unfortunate. As an aside, regarding the lower Coordinator birthrates, I've always felt that was somewhat analogous to the AK-47 and M16. Naturals, being AKs, are build with looser tolerances, while Coordinators are M16s with tighter tolerances. This means that things need to be juuuuust right to produce a Coordinator child, whereas with Natural children the process has been ongoing since time immemorial.
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2013-10-13, 04:54 | Link #9587 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Although his suspicions about Durandal did cause him to have a wary view of Zaft, refusing all contact with them, not backing their early campaign when they seemed to be completely legit, not supporting the Logos hunt etc, even if he didn't go out of his way to attack them if he didn't have a greater goal in mind.
He might not have immediately gone after Durandal's head, but it certainly colored his perception of the war to be very anti Zaft. |
2013-10-13, 05:29 | Link #9588 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2013
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Of course, their battery packs are damn amazing. Running a mobile suit for hours on nothing but stored energy... |
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2013-10-13, 08:24 | Link #9590 | ||
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Also, I am completely at a loss as to understanding your statement above. Please clarify. Because it looks like you have no problem with taking out the infrastructure of you allies. That's like the NATO taking out Serbia's infrastructure, and then on the way doing the same to Germany. Admittedly, it's not as bad as it appears if ZAFT gave alternate means of power generation to Australia and New Zealand; we know there are N-Jammers at the PLANTs, and yet they're functioning fine. Can't be entirely solar power. Quote:
...yeah, those are strong arguments for not having one in the back seat.
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2013-10-13, 09:06 | Link #9591 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2013
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They could have used N-Jammers to safeguard Plant from further nuclear attack...but this also has the consequence of diminishing their own economy and disrupting their own communications. It leaves the Earth in an even stronger position than they already have. Option Three is saturate the Earth with N-Jammers as both a means of retaliating and safeguarding Plant. It also has the added benefit of crippling the Earth's significantly more powerful economy and military. And as has been pointed out, a handful of Jammers will cover the Earth and the surrounding space. Plant has to use multiple Jammers to ensure that the Earth doesn't dig them up. The effect seems to have a very low power requirement since the Jammers will continue to operate for years after being plunged down into the ground. The effect also seems to increase in size when an active jammer is near another. In short, there probably wasn't a way to avoid crippling themselves if they were going to use the jammers at all. They are a very large and blunt instrument, and while it may seem like it'd make sense that surgical use would be possible, that the scale could be toned down, everything we know about them points to the opposite being true. There is no mass shielding against the effect. The earth does nothing to block it. If it were as simple as a lead lining and a tons of concrete, than the reactors should have already had shielding. So why would Plant use N-Jammers if their allies as well as themselves would also have to bite the bullet? Because the alternative was a war they could not win. If the went nuclear, everyone would die. If they fought conventionally, they'd be crushed by the sheer size of their opponent, despite their conventional advantages. Basically the N-Jammers were the only humane option available to them. Quote:
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2013-10-13, 20:13 | Link #9592 | ||
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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2013-10-13, 20:41 | Link #9594 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
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Dreams are pointless as most people never reach them. At least the Destiny Plan would put them in a station where they can thrive and use their abilities to their complete best. Destiny Plan would succeed as Durandal had the power to enforce it and because the people desired it. It's also very fair as it's based off ability and potential only. Speculation, nothing in the show showed that Durandal planned everything. He was simply good at reaading people, taking advantage of emotions, and knew what to say to get things done. It isn't a Dictatorship when the many are making the decision. And so what? Durandal was their savior, why shouldn't they feel indebted to him? The Destiny Plan was also working on Mars. Kira and co. didn't even consider it, they immediately decided that it was a bad idea and Durandal had to die. |
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2013-10-13, 22:53 | Link #9596 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
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Durandal wasn't a dictator as he didn't want control beyond seeing that the Destiny Plan is implemented and does what it's intended to do. That way people are judged based off their potential instead of personal wealth, reputation, where they were born, or the such.
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2013-10-13, 23:12 | Link #9598 | |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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I take it you've never watched Gattaca. In that case, a tiny skinny underweight kid would never have been selected for military service. Except that skinny underweight kid ended up being America's most decorated soldier. Also, from the prospect of military service, you get better results from a volunteer, someone who chose to serve, as opposed to someone who was shunted into the service. There's a very good reason why most first world countries, especially the US and UK went with a volunteer military as opposed to conscripts. Let's not forget that special forces don't look for someone with the physical ability (genes), they look for that intangible of determination. Quoting from The Warrior Elite, by Dick Couch, BUD/S instructors prefer candidates with the guts to get through, because it's easier to condition physical performance than it is to forge a determined spirit.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2013-10-13 at 23:31. |
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2013-10-13, 23:29 | Link #9600 | |
he is a CHAR
Join Date: Dec 2009
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I don't even need to say anything anymore. Everybody else has said it for me. Destined_Fate, I'm not trying to insult you but I'm not sure anymore if you actually believe in the Destiny Plan or hate Kira and co. so much that you would support an Orwellian dictatorship. I'm sure even you wouldn't want to have your entire life determined based on your DNA. Your job, your wife, your home, your occupation, everything. How about if the Destiny Plan called for you to be an untouchable or sewer maintenance worker? And there's nothing you can do because everything is predetermined based on your DNA. There's nothing about ability or potential. It's merely selection based on DNA. You have no chance to be anything but what has been chosen for you. You want to see the Destiny Plan in action, look at Hitler, Mao, Stalin, and ever other dictator in history. Please reflect on your words. (Sorry if the image is too big, I just didn't want to lessen the impact by putting it in spoiler. ) |
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mecha, seed it and weep |
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