AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Fate/ Series

Notices

View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 11 Rating
Perfect 10 87 50.88%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 54 31.58%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 14 8.19%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 4.09%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 1.75%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 1.75%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.58%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.17%
Voters: 171. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-12-13, 15:24   Link #261
Iron Maw
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
The only problem Alexander has for Saber is pride. She has no pride in her history of leading her country. She regrets her actions and wishes a qualified king to take her place. Where both Gilgamesh and Alexander think highly of themselves as accomplished Kings.

Nobody want's a king who always thinks of himself as a failure.
Right, I have no some people keep thinking otherwise. He was criticizing her as a person in her position not a her actual rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Well, that's because however nicely, pompously, or charismatically anyone makes his point, it's the substance that matters, and frankly Saber would be more useful in a kitchen rather than leading people to their idealistic doom
Nothing wrong with a King who has idealism as long as it's handled with moderation. I much prefer that to the other King who mainly looks out for himself due to being blinded by simple greed. That's more glorified bandit than a leader of man.

Quote:
By the way, I also read some comparisons between Arthur and Alexander here... should I remind everyone that one is a historical figure and his kingdom did exist in reality, while the other just a character of legend without any substantiated archaeological evidence to even hint to a real world equivalent... so comparing the too is somewhat invalid
There a lot of people who still consider even Author to be a myth, so that can still apply to him/her too.
Iron Maw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-13, 15:37   Link #262
Haak
Me, An Intellectual
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
There a lot of people who still consider even Author to be a myth, so that can still apply to him/her too.
Please tell me you're joking...
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-13, 15:42   Link #263
Iron Maw
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
I'm serious, there are a lot of people who still think he doesn't exist, at least not the one described in legends anyway.
Iron Maw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-13, 15:53   Link #264
Haak
Me, An Intellectual
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
Dude, he was talking about Alexander. Alexander definitley existed.
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-13, 15:58   Link #265
Malkuth
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London
Age: 43
Send a message via MSN to Malkuth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Right, I have no some people keep thinking otherwise. He was criticizing her as a person in her position not a her actual rule.

Nothing wrong with a King who has idealism as long as it's handled with moderation. I much prefer that to the other King who mainly looks out for himself due to being blinded by simple greed. That's more glorified bandit than a leader of man.
Idealism itself is not the problem, rather the consequence of stubbornness, naivity, stupidity, etc. Not good for rulers as for who is better from the three, if you ask me none, but then again this comes from a nihilist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
There a lot of people who still consider even Author to be a myth, so that can still apply to him/her too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Please tell me you're joking...
Who is Author? Arthur? If so, dunno, I am no expert in the subject, but I have not heard/seen anything except renaissance and later poems/songs, which quite frankly does not make substantial proof, hardly an indication
Malkuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-13, 16:16   Link #266
Iron Maw
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Dude, he was talking about Alexander. Alexander definitley existed.
Whoops, really misread that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Idealism itself is not the problem, rather the consequence of stubbornness, naivity, stupidity, etc. Not good for rulers
Hence "moderation". It can bring about good things when balanced accordingly.

Quote:
as for who is better from the three, if you ask me none, but then again this comes from a nihilist
All three leaders are really extreme so, you're not really alone, nihilism aside.
Iron Maw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-13, 16:20   Link #267
Xellos-_^
Not Enough Sleep
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Idealism itself is not the problem, rather the consequence of stubbornness, naivity, stupidity, etc. Not good for rulers as for who is better from the three, if you ask me none, but then again this comes from a nihilist
I will point again that Gil alone didn't suffer form a rebellion when he was alive. his country wasn't torn apart by civil war after his death. Sumeria last quite a bit longer then either Arturia's Welsh Britannia or Alex's Hellenistic Empire.
__________________
Xellos-_^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-13, 16:37   Link #268
LystAP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
I will point again that Gil alone didn't suffer form a rebellion when he was alive. his country wasn't torn apart by civil war after his death. Sumeria last quite a bit longer then either Arturia's Welsh Britannia or Alex's Hellenistic Empire.
Well, Gilgamesh was also less of an ass during the latter years of his life if I remember correctly. Gilgamesh's way of Kingship left little room for interpretation by his subjects, which also meant they were less prone to contest them.

Where Arturia's and Alexander's kingdom relied on the abilities and attributes of that specific iconic individual to hold their kingdoms together, Gilgamesh's kingdom relied more of the concept of the King's divine authority.
LystAP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-13, 16:48   Link #269
SoldierOfDarkness
The Dark Knight
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: From the deepest abyss in the world, where you think?
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
I will point again that Gil alone didn't suffer form a rebellion when he was alive. his country wasn't torn apart by civil war after his death. Sumeria last quite a bit longer then either Arturia's Welsh Britannia or Alex's Hellenistic Empire.
I should point out though that the times they existed in were different.

For Alexander he's a conquering King so having him around during peaceful times is not ideal. The majority of his life was about fighting and conquering and exploring. If his men didn't stop him he would've been fighting the Chinese and if he didn't died he'd also be fighting the Nubian kingdom as well. Even after Caesar finished dealing with Pompey he was already planning to invade Parthia in the east and this was after he fought for nearly a dozen years in France (Gaul).

King Arthur on the other hand ruled during a tough time where it wasn't all about conquering but defending and maintaining a kingdom so she had a ton of internal politics to deal with. Unfortunately as we saw while she was a just king she was distant and cold which alienated her retinue and helped brought her downfall.

Though I am annoyed that Gilgamesh stayed quiet most of the time. I mean this guy ruled for what? 126 years? That's a hell lot longer than either Saber or Rider so they shouldn't even be bickering LOL
SoldierOfDarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-13, 16:52   Link #270
Archon_Wing
On a mission
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Not here
Age: 40
Send a message via MSN to Archon_Wing
Although Saber's ideals are noble to behold, you kind of have to wonder what kind of people would respect a leader that has no respect for themselves and their abilities of a leader.

Being a good person is very different from being a good leader.
__________________
It doesn't sound like my love is getting to you.
I will not lose anymore; I will not give up.
More passion than hope, much deeper than despair.... Love!

Avatar/Sig courtesy of TheEroKing
Guild Wars 2 SN: ArchonWing.9480
MyAnimeList || Reviews
Archon_Wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-13, 16:55   Link #271
Haak
Me, An Intellectual
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
And yet bizarrely she had Level B charisma during FSN so just what the fuck is going on there?
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-13, 16:59   Link #272
Thess
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Yeah, this pretty much how I see it. Frankly while I really like Rider's character and agree with some of what he said, I would still prefer Saber's way of Kingship. Her rule provided a strong country that could continue even without her leading. Her fault really only lies in rather her lonely and fatalistic views than govermentship.
...what?

Her country crumbled before her death. Without Arthur, the people were slain and drove back the saxons invaders who she had fought against. Yeah, I can see... long term continuation, right...
__________________

"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
Thess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-13, 17:02   Link #273
ironoath
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
To me, you don’t follow a leader because he is something to be envied (although the prevalence of ‘pop idols’ in today’s world is counter-proof of this. Ok lets face it, people want to have something to worship)

I personally would follow a leader who puts duty above everything else, who holds himself to the highest standard, and gives much of himself and doesn’t expect something in return...unfortunately it usually makes the leader appear cold and emotionless (reflected well in Saber here)

I would take offence to calling Alexander a tyrant in the exact definition of the word, he’s more like benevolent dictator or something, but he certainly used his country to fufill his own desires, and the country came to believe that it was their desire as well because of his exceptional leadership. Seeing Ionion Hetaroi was amazing though.

On Saber’s side, isn’t her view that ‘the king must serve its people’ actually a very early and primitive form of democracy? While personally I find it hard to be harsh on her for such an admirable ideal, I must agree with all who say that it makes her an unsuitable king in a way. It’s like having Louis and Maire-Antoinette instigate the French Revolution..ok extreme example

I hope the two get a rematch, maybe one that will end in a semi-draw. Its important to have desires but its equally important to have ideals.
ironoath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-13, 17:08   Link #274
Xellos-_^
Not Enough Sleep
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by LystAP View Post
Well, Gilgamesh was also less of an ass during the latter years of his life if I remember correctly. Gilgamesh's way of Kingship left little room for interpretation by his subjects, which also meant they were less prone to contest them.
Say what you about Gil being a Ass, it work. His people didn't have complain much except for Gil getting first dib on the virgin in the wedding
__________________
Xellos-_^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-13, 17:10   Link #275
Thess
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironoath View Post
I hope the two get a rematch, maybe one that will end in a semi-draw. Its important to have desires but its equally important to have ideals.
I don't think that's the issue with Saber. If she were to king-up and stand for what she believes instead of ORZ MY RULE WAS A FAILURE I'LL WISH MYSELF BACK TO FIX IT, then she wouldn't have been the laughing stock of Gilgamesh and earn Rider's disappointment.
__________________

"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
Thess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-13, 17:15   Link #276
ironoath
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Although Saber's ideals are noble to behold, you kind of have to wonder what kind of people would respect a leader that has no respect for themselves and their abilities of a leader.

Being a good person is very different from being a good leader.
well, while i think she was plagued by self doubt, she never showed any form of weakness outwardly, and to the people she appeared cold and distant but not 'weak'. in fact i think an ideal leader isn't one who is completely lacking in self-doubt (over confidence is bad too, anytime gilgamesh loses a battle is proof of this), but one who does not show his/her self-doubt

or maybe the self doubt only really kicked in after she saw the hill of Camlamn?
ironoath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-13, 17:29   Link #277
Xellos-_^
Not Enough Sleep
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironoath View Post
well, while i think she was plagued by self doubt, she never showed any form of weakness outwardly, and to the people she appeared cold and distant but not 'weak'. in fact i think an ideal leader isn't one who is completely lacking in self-doubt (over confidence is bad too, anytime gilgamesh loses a battle is proof of this), but one who does not show his/her self-doubt

or maybe the self doubt only really kicked in after she saw the hill of Camlamn?
i think her faith and belief was shaken when a certain knight once said - "King Arthur could not understand the heart of others."
__________________

Last edited by Xellos-_^; 2011-12-13 at 18:16.
Xellos-_^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-13, 17:57   Link #278
ironoath
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
I don't think that's the issue with Saber. If she were to king-up and stand for what she believes instead of ORZ MY RULE WAS A FAILURE I'LL WISH MYSELF BACK TO FIX IT, then she wouldn't have been the laughing stock of Gilgamesh and earn Rider's disappointment.
what i meant was that since their noble phantasms are so perfectly representative of their ideals and beliefs as kings, then when they match up to show one is superior than the other would be saying that one way if kingship is better than the other.
ironoath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-13, 18:04   Link #279
Malkuth
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London
Age: 43
Send a message via MSN to Malkuth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i think he faith and belief was shaken when a certain knight once said - "King Arthur could not understand the heart of others."
including his wife's

So where is the speculation on Berserker's ID? I favour Lancelot over Mordred and the Black Knight

Last edited by Malkuth; 2011-12-13 at 18:06. Reason: quoting
Malkuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-12-13, 18:41   Link #280
Proto
Knowledge is the solution
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 39
It could be anything actually. There's a plethora of medieval knight tales and identities for the black knight. And Nasu has demonstrated that he is not afraid of choosing some of the heroes from not so well known lore.
Proto is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:48.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.