Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

What's Cinque's excuse then? She's one of the older ones and has most definitely killed, yet she's not the one in prison.

Fans liked Cinque enough that she didn't get incarcerated like Tre, Uno, Quattro and Sette.

Poor Sette.

[Akiyoshi]

Bacuse she accepted the conditions impossed by the TSAB to get out of there, she wasn't freed instantly and has to undergo rehab before being able to go out and even then they got recruited to work under TSAB orders after that. Cinque certainly acted under orders but shows calm and sociable behavior which coul've contributed to the TSAB being condecendent to her due to her record of good behavior ...also take into consideration that even if she's older than the other numbers she's still pretty young (remeber most of the numebrs are kindergarden age xDU) ....only Uno, Due and Tre are areasonably old enough to be treated as adults ...that's why im dubious about Quattro, she's technically a teenager but the will and involvement displayed on the actions commited by her could tempt the TSAB to judge her as an adult.

Still, seems the TSAB cares more for behavior than age as Tre was also given chance to undergo rehab but refused.

Most of the Hucks actions are aoutonomous, they commiting the crimes entirely by their own free will ...altough, seeing how kind and loyal of a leader Curren is, i can totally see her taking responsability for their crimes so the other can be spared more easily.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Keroko

And "random killing sprees in TSAB space" are definitely unnecessary.

Look, nobody's claiming the Hucks are good guys. But they are just a darker version of a running theme in Nanoha. StrikerS had the cyborgs, who also killed people. Some of the cyborgs got redeemed, the only ones that didn't chose this for themselves.

Same thing's in store for the Hucks. Those that have some good in them will get redeemed.

However, the Huckebein are no doubtedly closer than the numbers, so its hard to imagine them not all having the same fate. My only concern is Fortis since he was the only one missing from the Huckenein in the promotion manga for the second movie, even Fifth was there, why wasn't he. I doubt Tsuzuki forgot to draw him.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Probably but they're still different from the Cyborg in the fact they know what they're doing and are pérfectly okay with it and thus, much more difficult to talk out from their behavior.

Most of the numbers received parole for being young and influentiable, guess the same will go for the Grendels, Arnage and Stella ...but those with key involvement and intellectual authority such as Curren, Hardis, Fortis ...and may or maybe not Cypha probably won't receive such kindness in return. Jail didn't receivd such a chance ...and i'm not sure but i tought Uno and Quattro also got denied from reforming (can someone give me canon source about this matter? i would like to confirm how things for all the numbers went).

So were the cyborgs, really. It's just that when given a chance to change their ways, they took it. The numbers currently imprisoned are so because they chose so. They rejected the offer of reformation. Look at Cinque, who was in the exact same alley of no longer falling under the young and impressionable excuse, as well as having blood on her hands, but she got out just fine.

Same thing for the Hucks. Eventually they're going to team up, a cure will be presented and the Hucks will change their ways.

Heck, we're already seeing it happening with the Grendels. Infected, murderers, but got an offer for reformation anyways.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Probably but they're still different from the Cyborg in the fact they know what they're doing and are pérfectly okay with it and thus, much more difficult to talk out from their behavior. Most of the numbers received parole for being young and influentiable, guess the same will go for the Grendels, Arnage and Stella ...but those with key involvement and intellectual authority such as Curren, Hardis, Fortis ...and may or maybe not Cypha probably won't receive such kindness in return. Jail didn't receivd such a chance ...and i'm not sure but i tought Uno and Quattro also got denied from reforming (can someone give me canon source about this matter? i would like to confirm how things for all the numbers went).

Also, "random killing sprees" is kind of an exaggeration, i'm talking about the Hucks trying to do something they consider important to achieve their goals and Section Six getting in their way.

As much as i hate to admit, AEC-Weapons are getting a bit better since the Gladiator and as such they can't just slap the S-6's mages in the wirst like past times. Since the Grendels were captured and Cypha was about to leave the palce anyway there was no reason to kill or continue the fight against Signum but if next time she or any other member of Section Six stands betwee a Huck and an importan goal/target things won't be pretty xDU

EDIT: Page claimed for Signum working at a bakery xD

How are they supposed to stop their behavior? Its either this or die. The talk about killing necessarily, so they aren't just letting the virus have its way, but still, they do have requirements for living different than normal people. They didn't have Thoma's situation. They didn't have friends and possible family in the TSAB. They had to come to rely on themselves and each other once they met. What would have them do differently?

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Heck, we're already seeing it happening with the Grendels. Infected, murderers, but got an offer for reformation anyways.

That was because, let's face it, the Grendels are a bunch of immature kids playing tough with their newly accquired superpowers xDU

Sure, they're still dangerous (every EC Driver must be handled with utmost carefullness) but their much easir to handle than the Hucks, Carter is nof ool but he understands he's pretty much outgunned and is open to negotiations xD

Curren seems like the person that would be open to negotiate as well but seems to think her gols will definetely won't fit within any possible negotiation terms with the TSAB so she keeps on playing the misterious evil mastermind xDU

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Kurohane

How are they supposed to stop their behavior? Its either this or die. The talk about killing necessarily, so they aren't just letting the virus have its way, but still, they do have requirements for living different than normal people. They didn't have Thoma's situation. They didn't have friends and possible family in the TSAB. They had to come to rely on themselves and each other once they met. What would have them do differently?

That's the whole point, the Huckebein care for nothing else than themselves and their lives, fair enough from a certain standpoint, but inpractice that means they always choose the option who benefits them the most and if someone gets in the way of ther goals they'll do whatever it's necessary to wipe said obstacle. It has been shown before and it was implied they're still willing to do so. Cypha spared Quinn only and only because Tohma tell her to stop, next time she feels like killong someone and Tohma is not around a miracle will be needed to spare the life of the poor soul who dares to confront her. Veyron seems to also be the kind of guy who won't touch his heart unless someone else talks to him. Deville seems to be much more compossed than those two, tough.

[Keroko]

Until the plot spirals and puts the two parties on the same side.

Yes, right now it's hard to believe the Hucks would change sides. But this is like episode 5 or 6 of A's. It'll take a few more chapters, but eventually they'll end up on the same side.

[Akiyoshi]

Except it won't be the same. I bet all of that "fighting on the same team" stuff will be an "enemy mine" situation more than anything else. The Wolks had good reasons to become good guys permanently ...the Hucks doesn't xDU

I know they'll be forced to work with the heroes at soem point, it's kind of cliche in Nanoha but ...what possible motivation they'll have to become good guys? so far none of them save the youngest seems to have any good reasons for that.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

That's the whole point, the Huckebein care for nothing else than themselves and their lives, fair enough from a certain standpoint, but inpractice that means they always choose the option who benefits them the most and if someone gets in the way of ther goals they'll do whatever it's necessary to wipe said obstacle. It has been shown before and it was implied they're still willing to do so. Cypha spared Quinn only and only because Tohma tell her to stop, next time she feels like killong someone and Tohma is not around a miracle will be needed to spare the life of the poor soul who dares to confront her. Veyron seems to also be the kind of guy who won't touch his heart unless someone else talks to him. Deville seems to be much more compossed than those two, tough.

Well, they are in a situation where they can only care about themselves and others like them. About Quinn, she's a mercenary as well. She's hardly innocent. No disrespect to Quinn though. I like her.

[Keroko]

The Hucks don't.... yet. Plot has a tendency to change, characters have a tendency to develop.

[Justin_Brett]

We're on episode 29 of ??? at this point, considering it is still a manga and will probably never get a series as long as Dog Days exists.

[Akiyoshi]

Yep, but the difference between the Grendels and the Hucks is similar than that of a street gang of teenage thugs and a professional group of international mercenaries xDU There's simply no comparission in both motive and resources xDU

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

We're on episode 29 of ??? at this point, considering it is still a manga and will probably never get a series as long as Dog Days exists.

lol, we don't know that for sure. Besides, there has to be a reason Tsuzuki-san changed medias after Strikers.

[Justin_Brett]

'cause he wanted to make Dog Days.

[Sansker]

Originally Posted by Keroko

The Hucks don't.... yet. Plot has a tendency to change, characters have a tendency to develop.

Fair enough but this should be for credible reasons, not just because. You see my part of my problem is how the Hückebein turn out to not be our main villains. Was almost an accident. We discover Vandin and they are the villains. Instead of hit the Hückebein were working with someone, trying to use that as a mystery to make us look deeper in to the story they cut right to the point of showing results and avoiding that character development for a plot change so fast and with the obvious idea of doing the same as the other seasons. Now what is wrong here is the execution.

[Keroko]

Don't see how. Sure, they could have left us in the dark until the last second and pull a "SURPRISE! This is the real villain!" at the last second, but even now that we know real the villain, the Hucks still have to go through character development before a redemption scenario fits.

[Akiyoshi]

We get to learn why Fate did what she did and why the Wolkeritter was opposing the heroes ...and when confronted with the truth in both instances the foes started to consider what they're doing is not the best solution to their troubles.

The Numebrs were a bit different, they knew what's happening but were mentally conditioned into believing what thye're doign it's perfectly okay to the point Dieci felt wierd abut having doubts on her actions.

The Huckebein family has already been confronted on that aspect but they shrugged off the offer like nothing and are absolutely convinced and councious of their actions. Justyfing their transition into good guys should be more challenging and interesting but instead of that the plot is more or less giving them the good guys treatemend almost suddenly and with little justification/developement xDU

[Sansker]

Of course but I think they were just find as the actual villains for a while. Let’s face it, the Grendel family introduction was really lame: Kurt standing over a lamp post saying stupid dialogue, and then compare to the Hückebein family: Veyron sitting on an altar over the blood of his victims. Sorry Grendel but point to the Hückebein.

And it will be nice to really know about the family members we see here before introducing even more. Part of the reason why the other villains could become good guys was because the story did makes you care about them and show us their motives. And let’s not make this a debate over time, number of chapters and this being episode 2 of A’s. With so many changes, and twist in the story this is no longer the beginning, it can’t be.

So really, I just don’t get them at all as characters and I still don’t know what moves them. You see Keroko I like the first part because we had a clear goal and mysterious villains with not clear objectives. But why the characters move around was obvious: to get the Silver Cross. I can take mysteries when the bases are clear.

[Keroko]

I won't call it episode 2 anymore. I'm calling it episode 6-7ish now. The halfway mark. About the time when Precia, the real villain of S1, got introduced.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

We get to learn why Fate did what she did and why the Wolkeritter was opposing the heroes ...and when confronted with the truth in both instances the foes started to consider what they're doing is not the best solution to their troubles.

The Numebrs were a bit different, they knew what's happening but were mentally conditioned into believing what thye're doign it's perfectly okay to the point Dieci felt wierd abut having doubts on her actions.

The Huckebein family has already been confronted on that aspect but they shrugged off the offer like nothing and are absolutely convinced and councious of their actions. Justyfing their transition into good guys should be more challenging and interesting but instead of that the plot is more or less giving them the good guys treatemend almost suddenly and with little justification/developement xDU

As people have said, the Hucks are just a bit darker than what has come before. Actually, given that it is implied that the Wolkenritter and the Cyborgs have killed before (and in the latter case, enjoyed it), that makes them no different than the Hucks.

The Hucks believe that, because they are infected and thus hated, they have to survive as a family together. They are willing to kill to survive, just like any other human is. It's in our nature, we want to continue living, and most of us will kill to ensure that happens. I would. You would. A lifetime of that is going to warp anyone.

Of the cyborgs, Dieci was the only one to show any kind of remorse prior to being captured. Wendi? Nove? They did kill, and were happy to do it again. The only difference between the cyborgs and the Hucks, is that the Hucks have been at it longer.

Look, Aki, you have your own idea of how this will turn out. Fine. That's acceptable. We don't agree, but it is your own opinion. Now you have to recognize what we're saying about the Hucks and how at least some of them are going to get redeemed and change sides, and to understand *why* that will happen, even if you don't agree.

And you also have to realize that the manga doesn't whitewash things as much as the anime does. That is the only real difference between the Hucks and the Cyborgs/Wolkenritter and body counts.