Morality in Death Note? Do the ends justify the means?

[ArrowSmith]

Originally Posted by AmoreDoll

Being all powerful doesn't make someone completely right

Feelings don't count against the brute laws of physics.

[Nevflinn]

That people can feel so repulsed at the notion of oppressed morality or heinous acts, even when committed in the name of good, is proof that a greater morality exists. Hence why democracy is the best system.

[Throne Invader]

Originally Posted by ArrowSmith

Feelings don't count against the brute laws of physics.

Um......what?

[ArrowSmith]

Originally Posted by AmoreDoll

Um......what?

Like I said earlier, the bad men with the guns get to decide what the morality is.

[Nevflinn]

Originally Posted by ArrowSmith

Like I said earlier, the bad men with the guns get to decide what the morality is.

But what happens when it's time to put down the gun and pick up the pen?

[jigoku shoujo]

In Death note I think the ends justify the means, at least I wanted to see kira defeat N and become the unknow "god" of the new world,just because in the end something big will change.

[Nevflinn]

Originally Posted by jigoku shoujo

In Death note I think the ends justify the means, at least I wanted to see kira defeat N and become the unknow "god" of the new world,just because in the end something big will change.

But at the same time, couldn't you suspect the flaws of this "New World"? That it would, in all certainty, be worse than this one?

[Light_Yamagi_Kira]

Well I agree with Sinful that I would have love to see Light defeat Near as well. Nonetheless let's look at this from a just and "moral" outcome. No one in this series knew what justice was. Actually Light did have the closes idea of justice by utility standards. Think, though Light wanted a Utopia, which is what most people want, the difference was that Light actually had the power to do so that is it. Of course what he did was immoral but Light did not care because he believes there was something more divine than the rule of law. I am sure many Natural Law philosophers would see this too whether they would do the same if they were in Light's shoes is another question nonetheless. Where L, Near and Mello along with the police force and SPK were all legal positivist I would think. The law is the law and nothing goes above it. Yet, do not confuse this with morals or justice because no one had the right idea of Justice. L, did it as a game and out of pride and Near is a L wanna be so he goes in the same boat. Nev, could you clarify how the "New World" would have been worse off than the "old".

[jigoku shoujo]

Originally Posted by Nevflinn

But at the same time, couldn't you suspect the flaws of this "New World"? That it would, in all certainty, be worse than this one?

L, N and Light are not very different, they are defending their utopia, Light played on both site for the entire anime, even after L death helping to catch ''kira'', theirs mind was in ''synchrony'' but Light never change their mind as L and N at end, you can choose your side, based in some few differences of "justice".

[Nevflinn]

Originally Posted by Light_Yamagi_Kira

Well I agree with Sinful that I would have--*snip*

Ah great, you're online! That means you can answer my reply in the other thread!

Originally Posted by jigoku shoujo

L, N and Light are not very different, they are defending their utopia, Light played on both site for the entire anime, even after L death helping to catch ''kira'', theirs mind was in ''synchrony'' but Light never change their mind as L and N at end, you can choose your side, based in some few differences of "justice".

I....actually can't understand what you're trying to say. I think I do, but I don't want to risk going off on a tangent. I hate to ask, but could you tidy up your grammar a bit please?

[ArrowSmith]

Originally Posted by Light_Yamagi_Kira

Well I agree with Sinful that I would have love to see Light defeat Near as well. Nonetheless let's look at this from a just and "moral" outcome. No one in this series knew what justice was. Actually Light did have the closes idea of justice by utility standards. Think, though Light wanted a Utopia, which is what most people want, the difference was that Light actually had the power to do so that is it. Of course what he did was immoral but Light did not care because he believes there was something more divine than the rule of law. I am sure many Natural Law philosophers would see this too whether they would do the same if they were in Light's shoes is another question nonetheless. Where L, Near and Mello along with the police force and SPK were all legal positivist I would think. The law is the law and nothing goes above it. Yet, do not confuse this with morals or justice because no one had the right idea of Justice. L, did it as a game and out of pride and Near is a L wanna be so he goes in the same boat. Nev, could you clarify how the "New World" would have been worse off than the "old".

I agree it would have been best for Kira to win and be the god of the new world. Screw L and his sanctimonious bullshit!

[Hs Vi Germania]

Originally Posted by ArrowSmith

I agree it would have been best for Kira to win and be the god of the new world. Screw L and his sanctimonious bullshit!

In the end Kira only misapplied his power.
His only care was for his safety and that he won't get catched by Near.
I hate Near for his childishness but that new world was not real, just a dream of Light.
I am also sad about his death but what an end were it if Kira beats Near and kills the criminals of the world until he dies.
What would be with moral?

[animeis<3]

no i hated the ending but that's just me.

[ArrowSmith]

Originally Posted by Hs Vi Germania

In the end Kira only misapplied his power.
His only care was for his safety and that he won't get catched by Near.
I hate Near for his childishness but that new world was not real, just a dream of Light.
I am also sad about his death but what an end were it if Kira beats Near and kills the criminals of the world until he dies.
What would be with moral?

No he would kill all the criminals and then Ryuk would write his name in his death note.

[Throne Invader]

Originally Posted by ArrowSmith

Like I said earlier, the bad men with the guns get to decide what the morality is.

These are words that would come from power hungry lunatics. That's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard. Laws and decisions made from people with higher positions determine morality? I don't think that always applies.

[Kafriel]

Had Light used accidents and illness to kill every criminal in the world, people would truly suspect that an unknown force is wiping the planet clean of criminals. Making the heart attacks a trend is what let people know that SOMEONE is killing, and that they would one day be subject to that someone.

Like I said earlier, the bad men with the guns get to decide what the morality is.

hese are words that would come from power hungry lunatics. That's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard. Laws and decisions made from people with higher positions determine morality? I don't think that always applies.

This has actually happened in war where a 3rd party decided to help the oppressors win the war, and when the oppressed people said "this is unfair!" the others replied "we possess the country's greatest military force, you are in no position to state what is fair". Or something along these lines...

[Nevflinn]

Like I said earlier, the bad men with the guns get to decide what the morality is.

Hi, I'm Democracy. Please stop hating me. I give you the right to free speech, the right to believe whatever you want, the right to have a say in the world, and all basic freedoms that you take for granted today which would never have been conceived possible hundreds of years ago (in an era where the law was quite like-minded to Kira, and peopel were worse off because of it).

Originally Posted by Kafriel

This has actually happened in war where a 3rd party decided to help the oppressors win the war, and when the oppressed people said "this is unfair!" the others replied "we possess the country's greatest military force, you are in no position to state what is fair". Or something along these lines...

"For in truth he who becomes master of a city accustomed to freedom and does not destroy it, may expect to be destroyed by it, for it will always rally to the watchwords of liberty and its ancient privileges. "

Believing that power is the answer to all problems is making a grave, foolish assumption. Just because one side is all powerful, and pathetically abusive with its power, does not mean it will be accepted. What Light was trying to do was crush beliefs which have been set about by the people, learned men who have dedicated their lives to what is fair and what is right. Just because the societies in question haven't had to defend their rights for years does not mean they will not rise to the challenge in a similar way to the Task Force in Death Note. To try and turn the world into mindless little clones is just asking for trouble - people would fight Kira. Killing does nothing - there will always be someone who takes it upon themselves to continue where his predecessor left of, be it by inspiration from who came before him or by his own conclusion. It's a universal lesson that wars aren't won by body counts. In reality, a moral war has never been won, as only recently have people decided to try and target the root of the problems instead of blowing some heads off and fooling themselves into thinking they'd done something worthwhile.

[SaffyC]

(I've never seen an anime so suited for writing essays about. )

What Kira does reminds me of the quote- "I love humanity, but I hate humans." He wants to do "good things" on behalf of ALL humans beings (AKA make the world a better place) but he is convinced that humans themselves are despicable.

The scenario in which Kira would've succeeded, however, reminds me of 1984. Just pure, pure 1984. In this case, Kira is Big Brother, always watching you. And he has the POWER. Who knows if Kira will just stop at criminals? He might begin to "delete" (HAHA) all who are even slightly bad- cough cough, thoughtcrime. Doubleplusbad.

Ministry of Love.. it's just too ironic. They torture people to make them love Big Brother (aka Kira), which is, to them, LOVE. Ministry of Truth.. the Truth IS Big Brother, whatever he says is ABSOLUTELY TRUE. "Anything else could be safely ignored."

The most dangerous kind of people are those who believe their own lies, is what I say.

On another note, I haven't really thought about this much because I take into account what the creators themselves intended to portray through Death Note. And they said- It's just meant to be a satisfying adventure, not such a huge debate topic. And that's fine with me.

It means less mental workouts.

[GOP]

Death note brings up alot of interesting subjects indeed and I think that many of the posts in this thread has answered some of them. However here comes my contribution.

1. Kira (light) and L sees this in two seperate ways. Kira sees to cleance the world of evil to create a utopia and sees himself above the rules of man. This it self is not a bad thing but he has in mind from the verry start that he will be god. He chooses to kill by heartattack only to make the world aware of him and his actions. If it werent for this he would never have been cought.
Further more Kira is more worthy of the book then many others and I think the series shows this clearly. He does go to far and is therefor not the perfect owner of the book but clearly his "early" works gets results.
However from the start he is concidered a heroe in my eyes couse he chooses to do this well knowing he can never go to heaven nor hell, isnt that the ultimate sacrifies?

2. L does have a bit of twisted mind as well and will stop at nothing to get his case closed. So I think he is almost as bad as Kira. He wouldnt mind allowing some others to be killed so that he can get his win. He sees the world with laws and nothing should be above those, right or wrong this is how he sees it, but isnt he above the law when he is told to stand down and just keeps hunting Kira?
If the world accepts Kira as a law then that is the humans law, so in the end it is L that puts himself over the law and not Kira.
Remember that the law is made by winners (force or votes) so even someone who is braking the law can in the future make it so his actions is law and therefor justice.

3. N and M however is the worse of them all. They are ONLY in this to win and they dont seem to care about either moral or justice. They have their compitition and that is all that matters.

So with this said, does the end justify the means?

I think the notebook in the right hands would be great and in that case the answer should be YES.
However none of the caracters in the series has the right hands to do what is right, Light has some idea but the whole god thing is bad. IF he want thinking of using it as only a method and not to gain personal power. In the end however he clearly shows that it is to bring pwersonal power and nothing else. The whole god aspect would be good to scare future criminals but otherwise not...

I also see some people writing that they would have used the death note if they found it, but how?

Finally I think the origional question can be answered simply by saying that for the single human the end does not justify the means BUT for humanity it does... IF it is done right...
I dont see the point in killing people that havent done anything really bad but then again if it would be for the best of humanity then I might start to think different!

GOP

[StevOmaru]

I find that both L and Light each expose a good and evil side to themselves through out the whole series. I think it would be hard to mark Light and L as either completely good or completely evil.

In the beginning of the show Light begins a quest that he claims he is doing only for the sake of saving the world from people that are considered evil, but as the show continues Light begins to exhibit different feelings towards human life. Light begins to think less and less of the people around him and never has a second thought about using innocent people if it means he comes out on top in a situation. After a while Light truly begins to think that he is a god among men and kills off whoever he believes is against him.

Also in the beginning of the show L starts off probably by most people looking like the good guy by claiming that even though they are the lives are criminals, they are still human lives and that it is wrong to kill them so he will attempt to stop Kira. As the show continues L begins to show more of his personality in front of the Task Force and shows that he will do extreme methods just to obtain clues on Kira. Methods such as even in the beginning using Linder L. Taylor in order for L to confirm a hunch he had, he was willing to sacrifice a human life in order to get a clue on a hunch. Also when L first obtained the notebook he was willing to sacrifice the life of a criminal to test the powers of the notebook.

If someone would ask me "who do you think is justice, L or Kira?" I would say Kira without any hesitation. I myself also truly believe that this world we are all living in is corrupt and that the citizens of this planet have rotted very much. There are only a few handfuls of people in this world who could probably be considered pure. The strong abuse the weak, the rich stand above the poor, countries spill blood for power, and people hurt each other for their own gains. I believe that the only way to change the world is to take drastic measures because otherwise it will go unnoticed and nobody would care enough. By killing off criminals, Kira established to the world of true consequences to participating in "evil" and that the only way to save yourself is to be "good". Kira attempted to rebuild the morality of the people of the world because simply put "when people treat each other better, the world becomes a better place to live".