Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 14 Discussion / Poll

[Master Chibi]

Originally Posted by Beo

Its sort of sad, just because its not going as you wish you have a fit. No amount of arguing or badgering is going to change the show. Ether you are going to like it or not and if someone else has a different like or dislike, it does not mean ether of you are right or wrong.

I never said anyone else was wrong, or that I was right, it's just the need to bring up the actual location (Japan) has little to nothing to do with the complaints being brought across (again, primarily focused on pacing and we're losing because of it).

Telling me how Japanese couples act differently then American couples holds no water to explaining why the pacing has been so rushed. And again, even if they didn't want to show such things, I've given the simple sample of body language that would have been more than enough for what we're 'missing'.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Seriously, go play the game. You'd love it.

It also does an excellent job of putting the player in Tomoya's position, which I thought was awesome.

I'd probably play the game Tomoyo first, or whatever it is, since she's definitely the character I'm much more interested in, but perhaps I'll take up your offer on that.

Originally Posted by Proto

To be truthful to a more moderate level I'm with Master Chibi in that I'm disappointed in how KyoAni has treated the physical affection between the couple.(Quoting myself, there is a difference between 'just a little', and 'subtle' and 'plain nothing', 'nada' and non existent.) I still see one or two ways in which they could fix this, but somehow I don't see it coming. Aw well.

Again, it's not a surprise that I'm going overboard with my literary antics here, but things have been pretty damn dry, so I'm glad someone else sees eye to eye with me on that matter.

[Myssa Rei]

Egads, Master Chibi managed to convince someone? What is the world coming to?

I'm actually taking a post-grad course in Creative Writing, and I have mentioned before that, in all reason by virtue of my degree (Comm Arts with focus on Written Communication) I should be complaining as much as he is. 'Show, don't tell' has always been a mantra my professor drilled into me, and CLANNAD is doing none of the former, and relying on indirect hints for the latter.

And yet I'm not complaining. Call me weird, but I think that, had KyoAni bit the bullet and tried their hands at animating PDA, the feel of the show would be different. It wouldn't so idealized, for one.

[Ottocycle]

Why I think the culture argument holds water: The intended audience gets more implications that the creators are intending to bring out, in contrast to us. That's all I'm trying to say. If we don't get the implications, it's not their fault, this thing has no chance of airing on Western TV anyway.

I kinda agree that its kind of weird of them not even showing a single kiss though. One would be enough, IMO. But I guess beggars can't be choosers.

[RandomFlameStrike]

Well, I do agree a little bit with Chibi here. The paceing does seem wierd to me since I've played the game and I keep seeing a bunch of stuff cut out XD, however my love for Clannad is too great for me to really get mad at such things.

Well, I'd also recommend Chibi to play the game. There's some really awesome Tomoyo content, and There are tons of moments where Nagisa x Tomoya show just the kind of physical intimacy that Chibi would like. They go from first names, to holding hands, to kissing, to hugging, and it doesn't seem as fast when they get the bomb. Although it was still just as surprising x.x
In between all the "OMG CLANNAD IS AWESOME" going around in my head I also get some "*sigh* why'd they have to skip that, oh well...." I have a beggers can't be choosers attitude to this though haha.

[typhonsentra]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Uh...

I just won't go here. Someone will get offended somehow.

.... What? Do you really believe there are real-world newlywed couples (Not in arranged marriages) anywhere in the world that you wouldn't be expected to be sexually intimate after marrying? Yes there are differences between cultures, this however is something that's universal. Even Akio before it was confirmed jokingly brought it up ("She might already be pregnant!").

The location is relevant because the culture is drastically different, until you believe US culture is the norm (which is absolutely not).

Japanese are known to be extremely prude, and you don't see much active sex activities in a conjugal situation (the demography is aging very badly recently).
Of course, you do have "normal couples", but there are a lot of couples that can't even have sex more than once a month or something.
That applies as well for intimate and affection etc (remember folks: you don't kiss right in the open in Japan. You don't even talk about your girlfriend/boyfriend etc openly etc).

So please remove the idea that "the vision of a couple" you have must be applied in a fiction, especially if it is based on some totally different culture.

We seem to be having a misunderstanding here, I can and have accepted the idea that these characters might be wary of public displays of affection, all I'm concerned with talking about here is how they behave in private. And yes, older couples don't have sex as often as younger ones (This too is not unique to any culture). At it's core marriage is an agreement to have sex with one person and only that person, even in Japan. I guess you could use her condition as an excuse for why they might not be intimate if you wanted but in any other situation where both parties are capable, healthy I'd think that if they weren't having sex something was wrong in their relationship.

[Leo_Otaku]

I noticed that they have not shown a certain kiss scene yet. I have noticed too, that affection in Japan is very non displayed to just simply holding hands in public. But behind closed doors or if the were alone maybe we could see a small kiss.

[MeoTwister5]

I'm personally somewhere in the middle somewhere. I find it much more difficult for a story, much more an animated one, to imply and reflect physical affection without even showing it. The ability to imply that there is something in there that runs deep and true, without actually showing it, but proving to the viewer that it does exist is hard in any medium.

That said, they did cut out a few from the game, most notably the kissing scene. A personal romantic bias on my part, but I'd also like to see some of the scenes animated. The pacing did rush a few things in this episode, the gap between sex and actual conception and implantation of an ovum can go for a bit over a week. While I really enjoyed them holding hands in their sleep, we really COULD use a more intimate scene or two.

But of course, considering the events that would happen 2-3 episodes from now, I have an inkling that the studio will give us something, at least one.

[Eddward]

Just giving my opinion here.

Spoiler for pew pew spoiler:

I think everything is so weird I mean look at them. Even when they're alone they barley hold hands, we've never seen a kiss or anything. Then sudenly they slept together?. Man that's just f*cked up to be honest.. :\

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

That said, they did cut out a few from the game, most notably the kissing scene. A personal romantic bias on my part, but I'd also like to see some of the scenes animated. The pacing did rush a few things in this episode, the gap between sex and actual conception and implantation of an ovum can go for a bit over a week. While I really enjoyed them holding hands in their sleep, we really COULD use a more intimate scene or two.

Um. This episode took place from about April to June...

[MeoTwister5]

I'm almost pretty sure the calendar in the game was off at this point. Then again I don't think there was a calendar in the GUI during much of the entire After Story...

Edit - Yeah I just checked, no calendar where it was in the School arcs. I don't know why they actually removed it in the first place, sort of reduced the presence of time in the game.

Also yeah the kissing scene was a premarital event, but my point is that it could be done pretty much anytime after the School Arcs at is was... bah it's a spoiler, but it can be inserted anytime during AS as it was something of an independent event.

[Rice_slayer]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Seriously, go play the game. You'd love it.

It also does an excellent job of putting the player in Tomoya's position, which I thought was awesome.

Question about that, Where do you get the game and is it in english or subbed in english? I would LOVE to play through the game...

[TenkenXD]

Originally Posted by Rice_slayer

Question about that, Where do you get the game and is it in english or subbed in english? I would LOVE to play through the game...

i got it from animea if you're interested though it's a real pain in the arse to dl and patch it without it freaking out and then u have to re-dl everything. In the end i think it's totally worth it

[Ascaloth]

Time for a little Social Psychology.

According to Robert Sternburg's triangular theory of love*, love within the context of interpersonal relationships are characterized by three different factors;

Intimacy - feelings of closeness, connectedness, and bondedness.
Passion - drives that leads to romance, physical attraction, and sexual consummation
Commitment - the decision to remain with another in the short term, and the shared achievements and plans made with that other in the long term.

The “type” of love a couple experiences depends on the strengths of these factors relative to each other. In the case of the Okazakis, their relationship may be categorized as companionate love, which "is an intimate, non-passionate type of love that is stronger than friendship because of the element of long-term commitment. Sexual desire is not an element of companionate love. This type of love is often found in marriages in which the passion has gone out of the relationship but a deep affection and commitment remain."

Considering that the Okazakis were shown as not particularly "physical" to begin with, I'd dare say what they have is this form of love, instead of the "impossibility" that a few others here see it as. Of course, I'd dare say just one or two scenes of them hugging or kissing wouldn't hurt either....although I like to think of it this way; give the two some privacy, lol.

* Sternberg, R. J. (1988). The Triangle of Love: Intimacy, Passion, Commitment. New York: Basic Books. ISBN 0-465-08746-9.

[Proto]

Hmm... companionate love is normally a stage matured relationships go through, It is also often found in deep friendships, and, like the article says, in true family relationships. However it would be a little surreal to ask that type of relationship considering what we have seen from the Okazaki's. . Chemically speaking, love between a male and a female in its early stages is nothing more than the byproduct of high levels of testosterone . Namely physical attraction. Completely excluding this factor is what you'd expect from pastoral poetry, not from magical realism.

As such, I doubt you will be able to explain their behavior through real life sociology and psychology. Note, I am not saying that it is not companionate love, because it is. I am not challenging that. What I am questioning is the context and its subsequent conclusion we are being presented with.. Given the development the characters have been given, the result we have seen through the Anime is not what one would expect from the genre the series has established into. It should NOT be companionate love. In truth, it is little more than the animation studio own take of the story. Artistic license.

[MeoTwister5]

One of my psychology professors used to say that despite the advances in the field, psychology will never ever truly explain the intricacies of the human mind and human relationships.

Not to say that it is useless, but it might be incorrect and maybe unfair to simply categorize human mental process and behavior to certain labels.

And yes there is a biological basis for intimacy and love as reflected by increases in neurotransmitters and androgen hormones, but medical science has yet yo explain a biochemical basis for love beyond a physiological response. Love seems to exist and reflect even when homeostasis is the same for everyone else, and medicine might never fully explain this.

[jennkei]

Interesting psych discussion going on regarding the nature of Tomoya's and Nagisa's relationship -- I haven't watched this ep yet, but I've heard enough about the bombshell to go o.O myself many times over.

...Still can't quite believe it. Wonder if that'll change after I watch the ep? XD

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

.... What? Do you really believe there are real-world newlywed couples (Not in arranged marriages) anywhere in the world that you wouldn't be expected to be sexually intimate after marrying? Yes there are differences between cultures, this however is something that's universal. Even Akio before it was confirmed jokingly brought it up ("She might already be pregnant!").

That wasn't what I meant...

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

I'm almost pretty sure the calendar in the game was off at this point. Then again I don't think there was a calendar in the GUI during much of the entire After Story...

Only during the first little arc.

It turned off during a lot of the other routes too, so...

Originally Posted by Rice_slayer

Question about that, Where do you get the game and is it in english or subbed in english? I would LOVE to play through the game...

Game can be found on any site that'll import from Japan... you might have to jump through a few hoops to find a translation and voice patch. Google is your friend.

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Time for a little Social Psychology.

According to Robert Sternburg's triangular theory of love*, love within the context of interpersonal relationships are characterized by three different factors;

Intimacy - feelings of closeness, connectedness, and bondedness.
Passion - drives that leads to romance, physical attraction, and sexual consummation
Commitment - the decision to remain with another in the short term, and the shared achievements and plans made with that other in the long term.

The “type” of love a couple experiences depends on the strengths of these factors relative to each other. In the case of the Okazakis, their relationship may be categorized as companionate love, which "is an intimate, non-passionate type of love that is stronger than friendship because of the element of long-term commitment. Sexual desire is not an element of companionate love. This type of love is often found in marriages in which the passion has gone out of the relationship but a deep affection and commitment remain."

Considering that the Okazakis were shown as not particularly "physical" to begin with, I'd dare say what they have is this form of love, instead of the "impossibility" that a few others here see it as. Of course, I'd dare say just one or two scenes of them hugging or kissing wouldn't hurt either....although I like to think of it this way; give the two some privacy, lol.

* Sternberg, R. J. (1988). The Triangle of Love: Intimacy, Passion, Commitment. New York: Basic Books. ISBN 0-465-08746-9.

You sound like my textbooks. That's kind of scary.

[GLH]

Just watched the episode.

First of all, Akio needs his own show. When it come to being serious and advancing the story (i.e. The way he acted at the end of Nagisa's arc during the first season) he leaves much to be desired, but when he's purely there for comedy, he's gold!

Also, lol @ the defending of Tomoya and Nagisa's underdeveloped and rushed relationship. I love all the psychology discussion and trying to defend their relationship by practically claiming their relationship is so innocent and pure that we don't need to see anything intimate.

The fact is, Naisa may be shy, but she does crave physical intimacy. Even if it's only holding hands, she shows that she wants to be closer to Tomoya. Whether the show shows it or not, one can infer that she wants to take it further than that. On the other hand, Tomoya is a guy. He has his awesome relationship with his High School sweetheart, but he's still a guy and still wants some. Culture is irrelevant. KyoAni could have at least dropped some hints.

My biggest problem, however, remains to be the pacing. Let me put it this way. In the last 5 episodes Tomoya finished his final year of High School, worked at the bakery, moved out into his own apartment, got another job, supported Nagisa as she endured another year of school, dealt with his Dad's latest issue, listened to Yusuke's past, proposed to Nagisa, got Akio's blessing, held a graduation type ceremony for Nagisa, made their marriage official, moved Nagisa in, watched Nagisa get herself a job, and finally got Nagisa pregnant. I'm not sure of the timeline but it has to be around 2 total years from Tomoya graduating to Nagisa getting pregnant right? On the other hand, from episodes 4-9, the same amount of episodes as my previous example, we were pretty much treated with Fuko basically creating wedding invitations, attending a fake class led by Sanae, and attending her sister's wedding. All over a very short amount of time.

Do the events in those two examples deserve the same amount of screen time? I don't think so. You could probably say the same when comparing it to Kotomi's arc. It just seems like KyoAni didn't think things through well. Or they're just nuts and believe carving starfish is worth as much time as Tomoya and Nagisa entering adulthood and starting their lives/family together. You know, the relationship that is supposed to be the meat of the story!

No matter how the series finishes, I'll always look at Clannad as wasted potential. From both the original story creators, Key, and the animators, KyoAni. Both groups were coming off similar efforts with their previous works (i.e. Air & Kanon), yet both seemed to lose focus along the way. Shame really, like I said, there was a lot of potential here.

P.S. Anyone who bashed the Yuuichi/Ayu relationship/kiss better not be defending the development of this relationship!

[Master Chibi]

God, am I in an alternate universe or something?

People not only agree with me, they have problems with the same things I do?

I need to sit down.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by GLH

Just watched the episode.

First of all, Akio needs his own show. When it come to being serious and advancing the story (i.e. The way he acted at the end of Nagisa's arc during the first season) he leaves much to be desired, but when he's purely there for comedy, he's gold!

Also, lol @ the defending of Tomoya and Nagisa's underdeveloped and rushed relationship. I love all the psychology discussion and trying to defend their relationship by practically claiming their relationship is so innocent and pure that we don't need to see anything intimate.

The fact is, Naisa may be shy, but she does crave physical intimacy. Even if it's only holding hands, she shows that she wants to be closer to Tomoya. Whether the show shows it or not, one can infer that she wants to take it further than that. On the other hand, Tomoya is a guy. He has his awesome relationship with his High School sweetheart, but he's still a guy and still wants some. Culture is irrelevant. KyoAni could have at least dropped some hints.

My biggest problem, however, remains to be the pacing. Let me put it this way. In the last 5 episodes Tomoya finished his final year of High School, worked at the bakery, moved out into his own apartment, got another job, supported Nagisa as she endured another year of school, dealt with his Dad's latest issue, listened to Yusuke's past, proposed to Nagisa, got Akio's blessing, held a graduation type ceremony for Nagisa, made their marriage official, moved Nagisa in, watched Nagisa get herself a job, and finally got Nagisa pregnant. I'm not sure of the timeline but it has to be around 2 total years from Tomoya graduating to Nagisa getting pregnant right? On the other hand, from episodes 4-9, the same amount of episodes as my previous example, we were pretty much treated with Fuko basically creating wedding invitations, attending a fake class led by Sanae, and attending her sister's wedding. All over a very short amount of time.

Do the events in those two examples deserve the same amount of screen time? I don't think so. You could probably say the same when comparing it to Kotomi's arc. It just seems like KyoAni didn't think things through well. Or they're just nuts and believe carving starfish is worth as much time as Tomoya and Nagisa entering adulthood and starting their lives/family together. You know, the relationship that is supposed to be the meat of the story!

No matter how the series finishes, I'll always look at Clannad as wasted potential. From both the original story creators, Key, and the animators, KyoAni. Both groups were coming off similar efforts with their previous works (i.e. Air & Kanon), yet both seemed to lose focus along the way. Shame really, like I said, there was a lot of potential here.

P.S. Anyone who bashed the Yuuichi/Ayu relationship/kiss better not be defending the development of this relationship!

I really hope you've played Clannad before you make statements like that...

After Story, the game's After Story, is paced similar to this, i.e. much faster than the School Life routes. Probably because a lot less happens in Tomoya's day to day life.

KyoAni is just following the game, although they are still cutting out a lot... but that has nothing to do with the pacing of the story.

There really isn't any other way they can do it...