F/SN UBW TV - Episode 20 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[Amarantine]

Originally Posted by bakato

Can someone clarify this philosophical argument for me?

Is Shiro denying that he will end up like Archer? Or is he admitting that he will, but he won't regret it like Archer?

I would say he means that even if he does end up like him, he won't regret it. Because it's not about getting results (not mainly anyway). It's never been that way for Shirou, and that's part of why Rin fell for him (though that won't be shown until HF): to him the effort itself is worthwhile. The ideal is something to strive for, and even if it never comes true, in his words, "wanting to live your life to help others can't possibly be wrong."

That's the answer he had already given Rin a few episodes ago when she told him he would never find happiness if he kept going down that path. And now Archer is basically following the old "show, don't tell" rule and directly showing him the worst possible and most likely outcome. But Shirou's conviction remains unchanged, because unlike Archer, he hasn't forgotten the beauty of the ideal. So long as he remembers it, it doesn't matter where he ends up. As his version of the UBW chant says:

I have no regrets. This is the only path.
My whole life was unlimited blade works.

Speaking of which, here's hoping ufotable actually let him chant it (unlike Archer), and that Noriaki Sugiyama's Engrish has improved a little in the past decade.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by bakato

Wait a second. Then why isn't Archer being healed? He's a perfect copy of the future Shirou so he should have Avalon, too.

He's not this Shirou's future self, though. Merely a future Shirou. Specifically, a Shirou who returned Avalon to Saber, similar to how Shirou did in the Fate route.

[ShadowSamurai365]

Originally Posted by bakato

Wait a second. Then why isn't Archer being healed? He's a perfect copy of the future Shirou so he should have Avalon, too.



But he was healed by Avalon before he said that.

I believe that it was stated somewhere that Archer doesn't have Avalon contained in himself.

[Haak]

@ bakato.

Here's the whole thing: Shirou has a desire to become a superhero and put other people's sake before his own. It's an ideal that he finds admirable and would like to work towards. The problem is that it isn't entirely sincere. He obviously cares about other people but a big factor in his drive to become a superhero isn't altruism but admiration for his saviour, Kiritsugu. This is why Archer calls Shirou's ideals "fake" (the deeper philosophical line here is that pure altruism doesn’t exist). And the fact that his ideals aren't driven by altruism is what made Archer susceptible to disillusionment. I don't know if the anime really makes it clear but Archer has already spent an enternity working as a Counter Guardian which essentially means seeing only the ugly side of humanity, killing lots of people and never having the chance to save anyone the way Kiritsugu did for him. Because of that, it becomes difficult for him to see the point in him sacrificing himself to save humanity he's effectively lost faith in.

Shirou grudgingly admits that it will be hell for him too but resolves not to regret it and still believe in his ideals because he still admires them.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Haak

@ bakato.

Here's the whole thing: Shirou has a desire to become a superhero and put other people's sake before his own. It's an ideal that he finds admirable and would like to work towards. The problem is that it isn't entirely sincere. He obviously cares about other people but a big factor in his drive to become a superhero isn't altruism but admiration for his saviour, Kiritsugu. This is why Archer calls Shirou's ideals "fake" (the deeper philosophical line here is that pure altruism doesn’t exist). And the fact that his ideals aren't driven by altruism is what made Archer susceptible to disillusionment. I don't know if the anime really makes it clear but Archer has already spent an enternity working as a Counter Guardian which essentially means seeing only the ugly side of humanity, killing lots of people and never having the chance to save anyone the way Kiritsugu did for him. Because of that, it becomes difficult for him to see the point in him sacrificing himself to save humanity he's effectively lost faith in.

Shirou grudgingly admits that it will be hell for him too but resolves not to regret it and still believe in his ideals because he still admires them.

I understand. In a way, Archer's saved Shirou in forcing him to confront his ideals hasn't he?

Originally Posted by Amarantine

I would say he means that even if he does end up like him, he won't regret it. Because it's not about getting results (not mainly anyway). It's never been that way for Shirou, and that's part of why Rin fell for him (though that won't be shown until HF): to him the effort itself is worthwhile. The ideal is something to strive for, and even if it never comes true, in his words, "wanting to live your life to help others can't possibly be wrong."

That's the answer he had already given Rin a few episodes ago when she told him he would never find happiness if he kept going down that path. And now Archer is basically following the old "show, don't tell" rule and directly showing him the worst possible and most likely outcome. But Shirou's conviction remains unchanged, because unlike Archer, he hasn't forgotten the beauty of the ideal. So long as he remembers it, it doesn't matter where he ends up. As his version of the UBW chant says:

I have no regrets. This is the only path.
My whole life was unlimited blade works.

Speaking of which, here's hoping ufotable actually let him chant it (unlike Archer), and that Noriaki Sugiyama's Engrish has improved a little in the past decade.

Thanks.

I wonder if this could possible be the central theme of all Fate. I can't help but notice that Nasuverse is a shitty world. All these servants and people who lived their lives in such a way that made them deserving of a happy ending ended up in shitholes. Innocents like Caster had her free will taken from her and made a villain, her predecessor sought salvation in being judged and ended up delusional, Saber and Rider and both Lancers ended up dead after losing everything.

Originally Posted by GDB

He's not this Shirou's future self, though. Merely a future Shirou. Specifically, a Shirou who returned Avalon to Saber, similar to how Shirou did in the Fate route.

Thanks. Also, I forget or I just never learned why Avalon saved Shirou after being stabbed by Lancer in the beginning.

[GDB]

Avalon didn't save Shirou from Lancer, Rin did.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by amaterasu4

Images

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Maybe the blood loss affected him

I'm still unsure how to feel about the way people treat that meme. Sure, it's a funny thing to say, but it actually made sense in context.

On a side note, while Medea had a terrible life and deserves to be pitied, she wasn't innocent.

[Rev Okkin]

No fukken words. Too good, ufotable, too good.
I cried like Niagra Falls opened up in my tear ducts.

Here's the whole thing: Shirou has a desire to become a superhero and put other people's sake before his own. It's an ideal that he finds admirable and would like to work towards. The problem is that it isn't entirely sincere. He obviously cares about other people but a big factor in his drive to become a superhero isn't altruism but admiration for his saviour, Kiritsugu. This is why Archer calls Shirou's ideals "fake" (the deeper philosophical line here is that pure altruism doesn’t exist). And the fact that his ideals aren't driven by altruism is what made Archer susceptible to disillusionment. I don't know if the anime really makes it clear but Archer has already spent an enternity working as a Counter Guardian which essentially means seeing only the ugly side of humanity, killing lots of people and never having the chance to save anyone the way Kiritsugu did for him. Because of that, it becomes difficult for him to see the point in him sacrificing himself to save humanity he's effectively lost faith in.

Ep 19 did the whole "I only save by killing people" thing.

[The Green One]

So Shinji gets a little pinprick from Lancer and runs away screaming like a little bitch. Classic. Never get's old. Lancer got to go out with dignity and had a nice moment with Rin. Being Lancer is still suffering though.

Shirou and Archer's characters were thoroughly explored today, fun to watch.

[Dengar]

Too bad there was too little EMIYA.

[Amarantine]

Originally Posted by bakato

I understand. In a way, Archer's saved Shirou in forcing him to confront his ideals hasn't he?

It's possible, yes. In a way, they might have saved each other, in that Shirou reminded Archer of the beauty of the ideal and the worthiness of their cause, thereby freeing him of his regrets (as we'll see in the next episode and the final one), and Archer prepared Shirou for the harsh path ahead, thereby increasing his chances of not ending up as Archer had. Not only that, UBW Shirou has Rin by his side, and she's determined to watch over him and not to let him succumb to self-loathing, so yes, I would say he can remain true to himself and not become a bitter and jaded red man.

Originally Posted by bakato

I wonder if this could possible be the central theme of all Fate.

I would say the exploration of what it means to be a hero and what it takes to be one is the main theme of FSN, and each route explores it differently. Of course, there isn't necessarily a right answer. Some people admire and support UBW Shirou, while others find him crazy and think the path he took in HF was better, etc.

[Magewolf]

Originally Posted by Amarantine

It's possible, yes. In a way, they might have saved each other, in that Shirou reminded Archer of the beauty of the ideal and the worthiness of their cause, thereby freeing him of his regrets (as we'll see in the next episode and the final one), and Archer prepared Shirou for the harsh path ahead, thereby increasing his chances of not ending up as Archer had. Not only that, UBW Shirou has Rin by his side, and she's determined to watch over him and not to let him succumb to self-loathing, so yes, I would say he can remain true to himself and not become a bitter and jaded red man.



I would say the exploration of what it means to be a hero and what it takes to be one is the main theme of FSN, and each route explores it differently. Of course, there isn't necessarily a right answer. Some people admire and support UBW Shirou, while others find him crazy and think the path he took in HF was better, etc.

Also there is a bit of a power up of Shirou as well, since he had a lifetime of magework forced into him on this route so he ends up a lot more powerful then proto- Archer after the war. So he is actually in a better position to pull off his hero act.

[Mangonel]

Fate's Shirou becomes UBW's Archer and UBW's Shirou becomes HF's Archer is always how I understood it. It was a long time since I read the VN though.

Shirou's, "You're correct but not right" is him saying Archer is factually correct. (you will end up like me) but subjectively/morally wrong (he won't necessarily regret it just because Archer does).

For those wondering about Avalon, it only does major healing if Saber is around* (it draws mana from her iirc). This is why Shirou needs Rin to save him from Lancer.

*I can't recall if it has a small recovery boost without Saber's presence or if the reason Kiritsugu gave it to Shirou was merely as a token just-in-case knowing it would certainly summon Saber should he ever get involved in the Grail war.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Mangonel

Fate's Shirou becomes UBW's Archer and UBW's Shirou becomes HF's Archer is always how I understood it. It was a long time since I read the VN though.

No, Archer is the same Archer in all routes. And he's not from any of the shown routes.

Originally Posted by Mangonel

*I can't recall if it has a small recovery boost without Saber's presence or if the reason Kiritsugu gave it to Shirou was merely as a token just-in-case knowing it would certainly summon Saber should he ever get involved in the Grail war.

He gave it to Shirou because despite being "found", Shirou was still dying. Kiritsugu had to give him Avalon to keep him from being dead.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Amarantine

It's possible, yes. In a way, they might have saved each other, in that Shirou reminded Archer of the beauty of the ideal and the worthiness of their cause, thereby freeing him of his regrets (as we'll see in the next episode and the final one), and Archer prepared Shirou for the harsh path ahead, thereby increasing his chances of not ending up as Archer had. Not only that, UBW Shirou has Rin by his side, and she's determined to watch over him and not to let him succumb to self-loathing, so yes, I would say he can remain true to himself and not become a bitter and jaded red man.



I would say the exploration of what it means to be a hero and what it takes to be one is the main theme of FSN, and each route explores it differently. Of course, there isn't necessarily a right answer. Some people admire and support UBW Shirou, while others find him crazy and think the path he took in HF was better, etc.

Well, this is definitely a lesson for Saber who regrets the way she lived her life.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Too bad there was too little EMIYA.

That's good, it just means that it will have all the more impact in the NEXT episode.

[HandofFate]

I don't think any anime captured that certain 'VN moment' in the heart for me before as the scene where present shirou says to kid shirou "hey, that's hell your walking into" then he turns around and its archer telling the same line to him. It's such a perfect VN style moment to me that pops up often, but doesn't seem to pop up that often or well in manga or ln due to difference in medium presentation.

And I'm impressed ufotable managed to deliver it here.

[Raviel]

Originally Posted by bakato

Well, this is definitely a lesson for Saber who regrets the way she lived her life.

I think this episode plus Rider's advice to her in F/Z has finally made the lesson stick in Saber's mind

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

"Steel" is a common metaphor to refer to swords or the like, so that is actually a clever translation. And "maryoku gire" translates to "out of mana" just fine. Granted, "running out of mana" works too (although it misses a word that clearly indicates that state "kaketeiru"), and perhaps would ire people like you less, so that's a missed opportunity on the translator's part (or, I don't know, it could be the script that doesn't make sense in the first place!). And Archer didn't deny Saber, he just asserted that even if he is running out of mana, Shirou still can't kill him anyway.

I feel like I have to hop out and to explain this.

Archer has the class ability Independent Action. At rank B, it would allow him to be

Capable of remaining in this world for two days without an established contract. Also capable of living on for a short period of time after suffering extensive damage on his spiritual core.

It is suspected that it's not his born ability, but his cloak, made from the Holy Shroud of a saint, that oppose the external environment. It allows him to reject the force of the world that is trying to send "unnatural beings" away.

Source: Fate/side material

And to anybody who is stalking me, my baby is 5 years old and he is the MOST HANDSOME BOY in the world!!!

Originally Posted by bakato

Wait a second. Then why isn't Archer being healed? He's a perfect copy of the future Shirou so he should have Avalon, too.



But he was healed by Avalon before he said that.

Archer is from the "Fate route", in which he returned Avalon to Saber prior the final fight, so he doesn't not have Avalon in him.

And Archer is not hurt, he's just running out of mana. Avalon can't replenish mana, it only raises your mana cap. (equivalent of 1000 MP i.e. the amount needed for Excalibeam)

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by iamandragon

Archer is from the "Fate route", in which he returned Avalon to Saber prior the final fight, so he doesn't not have Avalon in him.

And Archer is not hurt, he's just running out of mana. Avalon can't replenish mana, it only raises your mana cap. (equivalent of 1000 MP i.e. the amount needed for Excalibeam)

Archer isn't from the Fate route. Fate-Shirou won't become Archer. But there are probably aspects of that route, that are similar to Archer's Grail War.